Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[FrancoPizza]

Urban freeways are so awful. The last thought someone should not have driving south on 81 from campus is jeez what a dump. Beautiful place made to look horrible with a road that acts like the Berlin Wall

If you take down that wall, we’ll be greeted by pioneer homes which has all the charm of concentration camps. The elevated viaduct if anything distracts from the blight.

 

[shandeezy7]

If you take down that wall, we’ll be greeted by pioneer homes which has all the charm of concentration camps. The elevated viaduct if anything distracts from the blight.

Nonsense. Your misguided takes on this situation are nothing if not consistent.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Yea, the Keep 81 people truly baffle me. I really, really hope the NYSDOT decides to tear down that monstrosity.

It's Congel. He has a ton of money and many willing politicians to try to keep that nonsense alive.

 

[IthacaMatt]

If you take down that wall, we’ll be greeted by pioneer homes which has all the charm of concentration camps. The elevated viaduct if anything distracts from the blight.

That land is too valuable. It will be University and hospital expansion, doctors' offices, dorms for Med School students, and local support businesses. They already cleared out the Kennedy homes. Jubilee would be next.

 

[FrancoPizza]

It's Congel. He has a ton of money and many willing politicians to try to keep that nonsense alive.

Even if it’s “congel” I hope you realize that sales tax is the primary source of revenue for the county. If 81 wasn’t critical for their business model they wouldn’t spend millions of dollars lobbying to keep it. It’s not about number of visitors going to mall - it’s the ability to sell new tenants on the proximity to a major interstate. If the perception changes, good luck ever getting another Dave & Busters or WonderWorks to even sniff the property.

 

[gocusecaz]

If we truly want to get rid of the barriers that divide the different parts of Syracuse, instead of getting rid of just the viaduct, which you can walk under, but let's also get rid of 690 which cuts the city in half. Erie Boulevard is already in place, so access to downtown is already in place. Just think of all the real estate that would be available without 690 in place. I am sure the cities, to name a few, of Richmond, Charlotte, Jacksonville, Orlando, Nashville, Memphis. Denver and many more are looking to elimanate the interstates that go through their cities. All we are basically talking about is taking the roof off of Almond Street. It's not going to all of a sudden come up with a bunch of new taxable real estate.

 

[shandeezy7]

Even if it’s “congel” I hope you realize that sales tax is the primary source of revenue for the county. If 81 wasn’t critical for their business model they wouldn’t spend millions of dollars lobbying to keep it. It’s not about number of visitors going to mall - it’s the ability to sell new tenants on the proximity to a major interstate. If the perception changes, good luck ever getting another Dave & Busters or WonderWorks to even sniff the property.

Except if the viaduct comes down and 81 is rerouted to 481, the mall will still be next to an interstate, albeit a renamed one. It will also still be about a mile south from another major interstate, the Thruway. If the mall (really the only one left in CNY) is relying on drive-by traffic to turn a profit, then it's already dead.

 

[shandeezy7]

If we truly want to get rid of the barriers that divide the different parts of Syracuse, instead of getting rid of just the viaduct, which you can walk under, but let's also get rid of 690 which cuts the city in half. Erie Boulevard is already in place, so access to downtown is already in place. Just think of all the real estate that would be available without 690 in place. I am sure the cities, to name a few, of Richmond, Charlotte, Jacksonville, Orlando, Nashville, Memphis. Denver and many more are looking to elimanate the interstates that go through their cities. All we are basically talking about is taking the roof off of Almond Street. It's not going to all of a sudden come up with a bunch of new taxable real estate.

Partially correct. When 81 turns off of Almond Street at around Genesee St., there is a good amount of land underneath that is currently either sitting idly or acts as shady parking lots. And it's not just about adding taxable property, it's about preventing the loss of taxable property as well, as the rebuild plan results in the demolition of over 20 buildings, almost all of which are currently occupied and on the tax rolls. So a rebuild prevents further development while also removing properties off the tax rolls. Seems like a net negative to me and the only benefit is to those who only care about driving through the city, and cant be bothered to spend an extra 5 minutes taking an alternate route.

 

[dollarbill44]

If we truly want to get rid of the barriers that divide the different parts of Syracuse, instead of getting rid of just the viaduct, which you can walk under, but let's also get rid of 690 which cuts the city in half. Erie Boulevard is already in place, so access to downtown is already in place. Just think of all the real estate that would be available without 690 in place. I am sure the cities, to name a few, of Richmond, Charlotte, Jacksonville, Orlando, Nashville, Memphis. Denver and many more are looking to elimanate the interstates that go through their cities. All we are basically talking about is taking the roof off of Almond Street. It's not going to all of a sudden come up with a bunch of new

The interstates are crucial to the economic viability of those cities. In fact, Charlotte would still be a small town if not for the intersection of i85 and i77. Memphis and Nashville need the intermodal aspect the highways provide. They can't just rely on river barges and rail. Denver isn't looking to eliminate the interstate but modify it. They are currently proceeding with a plan to sink a portion of the interstate and cover it with parkland and a small business district. The interstate highway system is still a major component of this country's economic backbone. For a city to remain viable, it has to have access to a major mode of transportation. With Syracuse being an inland city (no port) without the Erie canal, it needs the highway access for it's businesses.

 

[gocusecaz]

First of all, as to Destiny, I didn't even talk about access to the mall. If people really want to go there, they will find a way. Secondly, it's true that a couple of blocks of real estate would be opened, but will there still have to be new access points to get on and off the new configuration. If we are really looking to reconnect the different parts of the city by running a boulevard from the start of 481 to the south up to Hiawatha Boulevard to the north. By doing that, and getting rid of 690 through the city, the grid plan would truly be in place and all kinds of new taxable property would be available for development.

 

[shandeezy7]

First of all, as to Destiny, I didn't even talk about access to the mall. If people really want to go there, they will find a way. Secondly, it's true that a couple of blocks of real estate would be opened, but will there still have to be new access points to get on and off the new configuration. If we are really looking to reconnect the different parts of the city by running a boulevard from the start of 481 to the south up to Hiawatha Boulevard to the north. By doing that, and getting rid of 690 through the city, the grid plan would truly be in place and all kinds of new taxable property would be available for development.

Except you are still ignoring the main point. The 81 viaduct hast to come down, and according to federal guidelines, the rebuild will be larger and straighter than the original, resulting in the demolition of dozens of taxable properties. If that same scenario ever comes to light in regards to 690, then maybe we'll have that discussion, but for now you are just creating a strawman argument.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Partially correct. When 81 turns off of Almond Street at around Genesee St., there is a good amount of land underneath that is currently either sitting idly or acts as shady parking lots. View attachment 114114

The boulevard would still need the existing access ramps to 690. The amount of new land is overhyped. Fancy renderings of maple trees is all we have so far. There is also plenty of land and office space available within the city limits. All these offices are being converted to apartments because business have no need for the space. Tearing down 81 cannot spur demand that doesn't exist. If SU and the hospitals were desperate for more land to expand their footprint, which I haven't heard, then I'd suggest moving Pioneer Homes residents into some of these nice newly renovated apartments (cut a deal with the state for low income rent) and free up the land right next to the city's 2 largest employers.

 

[gocusecaz]

Then forget about the 690 part of the discussion and talk about 81. As I previously said, since you want the viaduct removed and the grid plan adopted, let's truly do something in and around the areas of 81 from 481 in the south up to Hiawatha Boulevard in the north. There would be no loss of real estate downtown and much more property available along that stretch of boulevard. Having grown up in the city, I remember many homes that real lost because of 91.

 

[DownTheField]

Even if it’s “congel” I hope you realize that sales tax is the primary source of revenue for the county. If 81 wasn’t critical for their business model they wouldn’t spend millions of dollars lobbying to keep it. It’s not about number of visitors going to mall - it’s the ability to sell new tenants on the proximity to a major interstate. If the perception changes, good luck ever getting another Dave & Busters or WonderWorks to even sniff the property.

If they rebuild a highway because of a shopping mall and its ability to attract a Dave and Busters, we're all screwed. Shopping malls and urban elevated highways are both relics of the past. The only argument to keep 81 is that it makes it easier for people to get through or out of the city. It does absolutely nothing to help Syracuse or the CNY area.

 

[FrancoPizza]

That land is too valuable. It will be University and hospital expansion, doctors' offices, dorms for Med School students, and local support businesses. They already cleared out the Kennedy homes. Jubilee would be next.

Wake me when that happens. Once any word of that gets out, there'd be protests and riots about how we're displacing residents. I'd be more open to the boulevard if that eyesore gets remediated. Just don't see that happening.

 

[DownTheField]

The boulevard would still need the existing access ramps to 690. The amount of new land is overhyped. Fancy renderings of maple trees is all we have so far. There is also plenty of land and office space available within the city limits. All these offices are being converted to apartments because business have no need for the space. Tearing down 81 cannot spur demand that doesn't exist. If SU and the hospitals were desperate for more land to expand their footprint, which I haven't heard, then I'd suggest moving Pioneer Homes residents into some of these nice newly renovated apartments (cut a deal with the state for low income rent) and free up the land right next to the city's 2 largest employers.

I find it hard to believe that you've never heard that SU and the hospitals are desperate for more land.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I find it hard to believe that you've never heard that SU and the hospitals are desperate for more land.

They must be pretty selective then, apparently, because there is plenty of land and office space in the city up for grabs. But back on topic, would Cuomo consider demolishing Pioneer Homes for a new stadium a rehabilitation of a depressed area?

 

[gocusecaz]

Wake me when that happens. Once any word of that gets out, there'd be protests and riots about how we're displacing residents. I'd be more open to the boulevard if that eyesore gets remediated. Just don't see that happening.

Pioneer homes has to be 70 years old. If anything it should be rebuilt. Moving people out would raise all kinds of holy hell, but it should really be redone.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Even if it’s “congel” I hope you realize that sales tax is the primary source of revenue for the county. If 81 wasn’t critical for their business model they wouldn’t spend millions of dollars lobbying to keep it. It’s not about number of visitors going to mall - it’s the ability to sell new tenants on the proximity to a major interstate. If the perception changes, good luck ever getting another Dave & Busters or WonderWorks to even sniff the property.

And in response to that, I would point out that the net spend in CNY won't change that much. Congel and Destiny is what killed Penn-Can Mall, Shoppingtown, Fairmount Fair, mom and pop stores, etc. We do get some out of state, and out of region buyers to come to see the mall, but that's mostly from Canada. I suppose we do get some from the Southern Tier, too, but not with tour buses like from Canada.

Call me crazy, but I could give a crap if we didn't have Dave & Buster's or Wonderworks. I miss having hardware stores and non-chain restaurants that don't suck.

 

[IthacaMatt]

They must be pretty selective then, apparently, because there is plenty of land and office space in the city up for grabs. But back on topic, would Cuomo consider demolishing Pioneer Homes for a new stadium a rehabilitation of a depressed area?

What's with your fixation on Pioneer Homes? That's like 3 posts complaining about it. We get it; you don't like the projects. Guess what? Neither do the people who live there. I highly doubt there will be protests in the streets.

 

[OttoMets]

And in response to that, I would point out that the net spend in CNY won't change that much. Congel and Destiny is what killed Penn-Can Mall, Shoppingtown, Fairmount Fair, mom and pop stores, etc. We do get some out of state, and out of region buyers to come to see the mall, but that's mostly from Canada. I suppose we do get some from the Southern Tier, too, but not with tour buses like from Canada.

Call me crazy, but I could give a crap if we didn't have Dave & Buster's or Wonderworks. I miss having hardware stores and non-chain restaurants that don't suck.

Correct. Sales tax revenue didn't jump when the mall expansion opened. The spending just shifted from a couple areas to a new one. Pyramid wants to maintain its stranglehold on retail; this has nothing to do with sales tax revenue and the common good.

 

[IthacaMatt]

They must be pretty selective then, apparently, because there is plenty of land and office space in the city up for grabs. But back on topic, would Cuomo consider demolishing Pioneer Homes for a new stadium a rehabilitation of a depressed area?

Do you live in town? Drive down Genesee St or even Fayette St. The University's footprint has extended that far down the hill.

As for the projects quote (AGAIN!), don't you understand that they tore down the Kennedy projects in connection with the stadium proposal that Miner killed? What you seem to think is impossible already happened.

 

[gocusecaz]

Does it matter where sales tax revenue comes from? Sale tax revenue is revenue wherever it comes from. If people don't want to come here, that revenue will slowly disappear.

 

[gocusecaz]

Do you live in town? Drive down Genesee St or even Fayette St. The University's footprint has extended that far down the hill.

As for the projects quote (AGAIN!), don't you understand that they tore down the Kennedy projects in connection with the stadium proposal that Miner killed? What you seem to think is impossible already happened.

It was a shame that Kennedy Square was named after the Kennedy's. Having delivered mail in that area in the 80's, it was a disgrace back then. It needed to be torn down long before it was. If we truly cared about where people lived, there are many more areas around downtown we should look at.

 

[shandeezy7]

The boulevard would still need the existing access ramps to 690. The amount of new land is overhyped. Fancy renderings of maple trees is all we have so far. There is also plenty of land and office space available within the city limits. All these offices are being converted to apartments because business have no need for the space. Tearing down 81 cannot spur demand that doesn't exist. If SU and the hospitals were desperate for more land to expand their footprint, which I haven't heard, then I'd suggest moving Pioneer Homes residents into some of these nice newly renovated apartments (cut a deal with the state for low income rent) and free up the land right next to the city's 2 largest employers.

The ramps connecting the boulevard to 690 will be nowhere near the footprint of the current ramps connecting 81 to 690. Not even close. Regardless, my biggest issue all along with rebuilding the viaduct has been the further destruction of useful and taxable downtown buildings just so that Joe Blow from Cicero can get to the apple festival in Lafayette 5 minutes faster.