Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[reedny]

I did not mean to sound snippy either. I legitimately can't think of a metro area the size of Syracuse (with stagnant population growth) that has invested billions of dollars into a tunnel project. As for cities similar to Syracuse where projects like this have taken place, I think it's a little hard to find examples, because of the uniqueness of the highway cutting literally through the middle of the city. You probably don't find that in too many mid-sized cities.

One somewhat similar example is Rochester and the removal of the inner-loop. Not an interstate and a smaller-scale project, but it's paid off greatly for them, with tons of new investment in downtown.

Don't think Buffalo can remove a highway? Rochester did.

New Haven, CT is in the process of a similar project:

New Haven’s Downtown Crossing plans advance

And a good all-encompassing article from the Business Journal on highway removals

American highways are so expensive that cities are tearing them down — here’s what they’re turning into

No doubt Rochester's Inner Loop project has created many benefits: 1) removal of an unsightly sunken highway that divided neighborhoods; 2) restoration of land to the tax roles; 3) addition of bike lanes, parks, public open spaces and other improvements.

But the loop is not an I-81 analog. Per the links in your post, it was not heavily used so there was no "hit" to East-West (I-490) by-pass traffic. I-81, by contrast, is a major artery connecting Canada and the north country to PA and other points South (along with serving Syracuse suburbs). 481 is there, but it's pretty far to the East and doesn't seem configured to be a viable I-81 alternative.

It's a complex issue, but clearly all New York tax-payers (and highway travelers) have an interest in it, not just Syracuse residents. While the "community grid" option has gained popularity (fueled mostly by local residents and businesses), for the rest of I-81 users (maybe the majority), I hope CG is not a barrier. If it's a workable by-pass (481), I hope it's not too much of a compromise. If it's an unworkable by-pass or an off-highway diversion (like Shamokin Dam), not good. That could funnel North/West-South/East traffic off an expressway into signaled intersections and delays. Those who have gotten hijacked at Shamokin Dam trying to get to the DMV via Route 15 will know what I'm referring to.
Central Susquehanna Valley Transportation Project - Wikipedia

Please be gentle in responding.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Any large project of that magnitude would expect similar credits. It's basically an expectation to offset the taxation and regulation in this state. Even all the apartments going up are getting some breaks albeit on a smaller scale. What hurt the destiny timeline was the constant obstruction and petty bickering with previous administrations. Love or hate the mall, it's a regional attraction that generates 25% of its sales tax from tourists and Canadian visitors. I hope the 81 decision does not impact negatively but it wouldn't surprise me to see Pyramid threaten to take their ball and go home. Right now they are trying to stay ahead of the game by diversifying away from retail and more towards entertainment. In frustration they could just say it and try to sell like they considered 10-15 years ago. Maybe they'll take their services to Washington with Hop.

Building apartments should never get tax breaks. Never.
The benefits of the mall have been exaggerated, because mostly they have simply cannibalized sales from other malls and retailers in the area. When the expansion went in around 10 years ago, it did not substantially add to the sales tax revenue generated.

 

[shandeezy7]

No doubt Rochester's Inner Loop project has created many benefits: 1) removal of an unsightly sunken highway that divided neighborhoods; 2) restoration of land to the tax roles; 3) addition of bike lanes, parks, public open spaces and other improvements.

However, as you can see from the links you provided, the inner loop (while handy for those who knew how to use it) was not heavily trafficked. So there was really no "hit" to East-West (I-490) travelers bypassing the city. I-81, by contrast, is a major artery connecting Canada and the north country to PA and other points South (along with serving Syracuse suburbs). 481 is there, but it's pretty far to the East and doesn't seem configured to be a viable I-81 alternative.

Clearly, all New Yorkers have an interest in this issue, not just Syracuse residents. It appears that the "community grid" option has gained popularity, fueled mostly by local residents and businesses. But for the rest of I-81 users (maybe the majority), CG sounds like another barrier - similar to Shamokin Dam - that will divert North-South traffic off of the highway and force it into signaled intersections and delays. That is not a "solution" but a potential headache. Those who have gotten hijacked at Shamokin Dam trying to get to the DMV via Route 15 will know what I'm referring to - a situation so frustrating that that it has required an expensive by-pass fix.
Central Susquehanna Valley Transportation Project - Wikipedia

The only option that avoids the Shamokin Dam problem is a hybrid - a part tunnel/part-grid system that can handle North-South traffic flow but still eliminate some of the ugly viaduct. Please be gentle in responding.

The Community Grid does not divert north-south traffic off of the highway. It shifts the traffic onto an already existent highway slightly to the east of the current north-south setup. The tunnel/grid hybrid sounds great in theory, but would be an unnecessary fiscal nightmare, construction boondoggle and maintenance/upkeep disaster, and it would still result in the demolition of a couple dozen buildings in downtown Syracuse, many of them historic, most of them fully-occupied and a number of them having undergone millions of dollars in recent renovations.

 

[shandeezy7]

By "diverting" I mean: doesn't CG force I-81 -- 65 MPH limited access traffic -- onto a 25-30 MPH local road facing cross-traffic and signaled intersections? That was the whole point of my post - that this kind of "solution" would create a disaster like Shamokin Dam.

No it doesn't do that. What is currently 481 will be converted into 81. A seamless continuation of the highway at the current north and south ends of 481 will be created. If you're driving on 81, you won't even notice the community grid, aside from an exit for it off of the highway.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Ok that's what I was wondering. So the CG concept is not a local road block (like Shamokin Dam). It's a re-routing of I-81 through 481, not a forced exit. Thank you for being gentle.

Except if you’re coming from the south and want to head to western NY destinations it makes no sense to loop in the opposite direction just to get on the thruway. Not having a western bypass becomes a huge issue. It services one side of the metro area and screws another. Commuters who feel inconvenienced will flip the bird at 481 and go straight through the city anyway since the commute times cancel each other out! If anything it will probably be faster to avoid 481 if I just need to get through a few stoplights to reach 690->90. What a cluster that will be.

Why not reroute 81 onto an upgraded west street loop? There are no historic buildings along this corridor. Has that even been considered?

 

[IthacaMatt]

Except if you’re coming from the south and want to head to western NY destinations it makes no sense to loop in the opposite direction just to get on the thruway. Not having a western bypass becomes a huge issue. It favors one side of the metro area and screws another.

Why not reroute 81 onto an upgraded west street loop? There are no historic buildings along this corridor. Has that even been considered?

Southbound traffic exits 81 at Bear St. to get on 690 West, just like now, except that that byway should be improved so the traffic doesn't have to be local on Bear.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Except if you’re coming from the south and want to head to western NY destinations it makes no sense to loop in the opposite direction just to get on the thruway. Not having a western bypass becomes a huge issue. It favors one side of the metro area and screws another. Commuters who feel inconvenienced will flip the bird at 481 and go straight through the city anyway since the commute times cancel each other out! If anything it will probably be faster to avoid 481 if I just need to get through a few stoplights to reach 690->90. What a cluster that will be.

Why not reroute 81 onto an upgraded west street loop? There are no historic buildings along this corridor. Has that even been considered?

The other thing that should be done is at Seneca Tpk / Rock Cut Road where the 481 connection is currently located should also eventually have a westbound connector to Route 5 / Route 690 near Fairmount.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Southbound traffic exits 81 at Bear St. to get on 690 West, just like now, except that that byway should be improved so the traffic doesn't have to be local on Bear.

I’m talking about 81 northbound traffic trying to head to points west e.g Auburn, Rochester, Buffalo. That traffic is not going to take 481. It will be faster to just take the business spur into the city, get through a few lights and hook up with 690 west.

 

[FrancoPizza]

The other thing that should be done is at Seneca Tpk / Rock Cut Road where the 481 connection is currently located should also eventually have a westbound connector to Route 5 / Route 690 near Fairmount.

That ship sailed about 15 years ago when the state forfeited the land. That should’ve been the western bypass. Would’ve avoided this whole 81 debate.

 

[FrancoPizza]

That's what I wondered above - whether 481 is too far East. But if it's a continuous bypass (without a forced exit), it would still probably be faster for North/West-bounders than getting off the highway into cross traffic and signaled intersections (ala Shamokin Dam).

Not sure about that. It’s only 1.5 miles of signals, some of which will be green. If it takes an extra 6 minutes to go around via 481 versus an extra 3-6 minutes to go through the city - well guess what I’m doing!

 

[shandeezy7]

Not sure about that. It’s only 1.5 miles of signals, some of which will be green. If it takes an extra 6 minutes to go around via 481 versus an extra 3-6 minutes to go through the city - well guess what I’m doing!

There is zero chance that it will be faster to get to 690 west by taking the community grid instead of staying on 481/81 to the eastern end of 690 and taking that. I count at least 10 traffic lights between where 81 would peel off at Rock Cut Rd and 690 via the community grid. That's about 3 miles. You're leaving off the 1.5 miles of grade-level boulevard from Rock Cut Rd to downtown that won't be the community grid "proper" but will still not be an expressway and will have cross streets to navigate (like Brighton Ave and Colvin St).

I do agree that the solution is not totally ideal for someone trying to get from south of the city to west of the city, or vice versa, but I do still think that there is infrastructure currently in place to not make it a total nightmare and hopefully make it a minor inconvenience, at worst. I also happen to believe that it is the best solution for the city, which should have a positive effect on the entire community as a result.

 

[Consigliere]

Guess it depends on how far south you are and how far west you are going. To go from Johnson City to Rochester I will now go exclusively on 86 West to 490 North.

Trucks doing that might actually impact Thruway revenue.

 

[shandeezy7]

Guess it depends on how far south you are and how far west you are going. To go from Johnson City to Rochester I will now go exclusively on 86 West to 490 North.

Trucks doing that might actually impact Thruway revenue.

I'm assuming you mean to 390 North? If you're west of Binghamton, that might make more sense, but Google Maps shows Binghamton to Rochester as being a full 15 minutes longer than going North on 81 to 690. It's 10 minutes longer (and 10 miles longer) than taking 481 to 690. Maybe saving a few bucks by not taking the Thruway is worth that 10 minutes, though. And I'm sure there is less traffic on 86 and 390 than on 81 and the Thruway.

 

[Consigliere]

I'm assuming you mean to 390 North? If you're west of Binghamton, that might make more sense, but Google Maps shows Binghamton to Rochester as being a full 15 minutes longer than going North on 81 to 690. It's 10 minutes longer (and 10 miles longer) than taking 481 to 690. Maybe saving a few bucks by not taking the Thruway is worth that 10 minutes, though. And I'm sure there is less traffic on 86 and 390 than on 81 and the Thruway.

You're right.390 North. And I listened to Google maps until I drove it myself a few times. With the lighter traffic and a more lenient approach to speed limits it's a wash today and will actually be a few minutes quicker.

 

[FrancoPizza]

There is zero chance that it will be faster to get to 690 west by taking the community grid instead of staying on 481/81 to the eastern end of 690 and taking that. I count at least 10 traffic lights between where 81 would peel off at Rock Cut Rd and 690 via the community grid. That's about 3 miles. You're leaving off the 1.5 miles of grade-level boulevard from Rock Cut Rd to downtown that won't be the community grid "proper" but will still not be an expressway and will have cross streets to navigate (like Brighton Ave and Colvin St).

I do agree that the solution is not totally ideal for someone trying to get from south of the city to west of the city, or vice versa, but I do still think that there is infrastructure currently in place to not make it a total nightmare and hopefully make it a minor inconvenience, at worst. I also happen to believe that it is the best solution for the city, which should have a positive effect on the entire community as a result.

I think you’re vastly mistaken on where the highway is going to transition to a boulevard. The transition will NOT occur where 81 routes onto what is now 481. They will have to come up with a new name for the stretch of highway that continues towards the city; some have suggested calling it the “81 business spur”. The actual transition to a boulevard will take place very near the university and what is now the almond steeet/Harrison street exit. They are considering adding exits on the business spur but all plans show about a 1.5 mile boulevard.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I’m talking about 81 northbound traffic trying to head to points west e.g Auburn, Rochester, Buffalo. That traffic is not going to take 481. It will be faster to just take the business spur into the city, get through a few lights and hook up with 690 west.

Yes, you're right. It's only about a mile, if that. You can get on 690 Westbound at West St.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think you’re vastly mistaken on where the highway is going to transition to a boulevard. The transition will NOT occur where 81 routes onto what is now 481. They will have to come up with a new name for the stretch of highway that continues towards the city; some have suggested calling it the “81 business spur”. The actual transition to a boulevard will take place very near the university and what is now the almond steeet/Harrison street exit. They are considering adding exits on the business spur but all plans show about a 1.5 mile boulevard.

Actually, the drawings I saw showed 3 exits off the 81 North Spur, between Brighton and Adams. They will divert the traffic onto an improved State Street and Salina Street, both will be widened to 2 lanes, at least city-bound. I think there is a third north-south street, too that traffic will be steered to. I want to say Kennedy, but I don't think that's right.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Actually, the drawings I saw showed 3 exits off the 81 North Spur, between Brighton and Adams. They will divert the traffic onto an improved State Street and Salina Street, both will be widened to 2 lanes, at least city-bound. I think there is a third north-south street, too that traffic will be steered to. I want to say Kennedy, but I don't think that's right.

But the point being those exits should not slow down thru traffic on the spur. If people want to get off at those streets the spur should provide a separate exit lane.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Yes, you're right. It's only about a mile, if that. You can get on 690 Westbound at West St.

Even faster. Makes me wonder if any thru traffic is going to bother with 481.

 

[IthacaMatt]

But the point being those exits should not slow down thru traffic on the spur. If people want to get off at those streets the spur should provide a separate exit lane.

Yes, that's basic city planning. Have an exit lane.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Yes, that's basic city planning. Have an exit lane.

Just wish they included an exit for the West Seneca Turnpike. That's a major interchange. I shouldn’t have to navigate Salina st just to get on 81. It’s horrible planning.

 

[OttoMets]

I still can't get past the quarry I used to play in as a youth in DeWitt (off of Quintard and Jamesville Road), has been a residential area now for probably 20 plus years.

Because it's inside 481 I should hesitate before calling it sprawl, but that kind of development hasn't made DeWitt a prettier place in the last two decades. I remember when they started moving earth for that one, summer 1999, I think. Quintard was part of my running loop at least twice a week. I'd always taken it for granted that that would be open space.

 

[EastCoast2]

I still can't get past the quarry I used to play in as a youth in DeWitt (off of Quintard and Jamesville Road), has been a residential area now for probably 20 plus years.

I'd frequent that quarry also - and the quarry on the other side of Nottingham Road/481. Used to ride our bike through there. Seemed like it was the size of Wyoming

 

[SUFaninNJ]

I'd frequent that quarry also - and the quarry on the other side of Nottingham Road/481. Used to ride our bike through there. Seemed like it was the size of Wyoming

I used to live off of Quintard. We used to go there and catch newts among other things.

 

[EastCoast2]

I used to live off of Quintard. We used to go there and catch newts among other things.

Peck Hill Rd. here, but tucked back near Quintard, could get there through my backyard. Great neighborhood and time to be a kid.