Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[sutomcat]

I was going to post this same thing. Everyone knows Erie Blvd is ugly as sin, they're working on improvements.

Also, after cleaning up stuff for earth day, cigarettes should have another tax on them to pay for picking up the butts. Alternatively, tobacco companies should be regulated into using only biodegradeable butts.

Again with lots of trees.

Let me be clear. I am pro tree. I love a good tree.

Can they flourish on Erie Boulevard? I think the salt, the heat from all the asphalt surrounding them, the emissions from the cars and trucks, the infrastructure and poisons in the ground where the roots are makes for an environment where the trees cannot succeed. I suspect the only way it might happen would be if there was a tree expert monitoring them and giving them love and expert care on a continual basis.

Is it worthwhile to even try? A healthy tree looks great. A dead or dying tree...not so much.

 

[shandeezy7]

Again with lots of trees.

Let me be clear. I am pro tree. I love a good tree.

Can they flourish on Erie Boulevard? I think the salt, the heat from all the asphalt surrounding them, the emissions from the cars and trucks, the infrastructure and poisons in the ground where the roots are makes for an environment where the trees cannot succeed. I suspect the only way it might happen would be if there was a tree expert monitoring them and giving them love and expert care on a continual basis.

Is it worthwhile to even try? A healthy tree looks great. A dead or dying tree...not so much.

Trees can do just fine in this environment. The problem is that lots municipalities usually go with the cheapest tree they can find, install them incorrectly and then do not provide enough care for them early on after they have been planted to give them a chance to survive (including regular, abundant watering). So trees can thrive in most any urban environment, but they have to be given a chance to do so.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Again with lots of trees.

Let me be clear. I am pro tree. I love a good tree.

Can they flourish on Erie Boulevard? I think the salt, the heat from all the asphalt surrounding them, the emissions from the cars and trucks, the infrastructure and poisons in the ground where the roots are makes for an environment where the trees cannot succeed. I suspect the only way it might happen would be if there was a tree expert monitoring them and giving them love and expert care on a continual basis.

Is it worthwhile to even try? A healthy tree looks great. A dead or dying tree...not so much.

If only there was a forestry school in the area with lots of tree experts who could weigh in and provide their input to the city.

 

[SmilinBob]

Why not put a bike/walker path through it?

 

[sutomcat]

Trees can do just fine in this environment. The problem is that lots municipalities usually go with the cheapest tree they can find, install them incorrectly and then do not provide enough care for them early on after they have been planted to give them a chance to survive (including regular, abundant watering). So trees can thrive in most any urban environment, but they have to be given a chance to do so.

Maybe so but history says this is destined to fail. I can’t begin to count all the attempts to grow trees in this kind of a setting that have failed. We know there will be no budget to pamper the trees.

If they plant a ton of trees and they thrive, I would be delighted. Our city is pretty ugly.

I just think it would be good to be realistic for once.

 

[KellySyracuse]

Well this is great news

How funding for the I-81 project will go further than highway repairs

"...the State Department of Transportation's 15,000 page endorsement of the community grid, the plan relies heavily on city streets.

That's the point of the community grid - to put traffic back into the city and prepare its streets for more cars.
Of the nearly $2 billion cost, millions will go expanding I-481 and take down the viaduct, but dozens of streets in Syracuse will benefit from the project, funded by the state and federal governments.

Some city streets will be completely rebuilt, including what's on top and the water pipes underneath. Many others will be repaved."

 

[FrancoPizza]

Maybe so but history says this is destined to fail. I can’t begin to count all the attempts to grow trees in this kind of a setting that have failed. We know there will be no budget to pamper the trees.

If they plant a ton of trees and they thrive, I would be delighted. Our city is pretty ugly.

I just think it would be good to be realistic for once.

Trees can survive and do well if they’re given abundant TLC in the first year after installation. Otherwise don’t even bother.

 

[bevosu]

We've got ESF and Cornell. You'd hope the city has tapped those resources.

Great Trees for Urban (and Suburban) Yards - Networx

 

[OttoMets]

Well this is great news

How funding for the I-81 project will go further than highway repairs

"...the State Department of Transportation's 15,000 page endorsement of the community grid, the plan relies heavily on city streets.

That's the point of the community grid - to put traffic back into the city and prepare its streets for more cars.
Of the nearly $2 billion cost, millions will go expanding I-481 and take down the viaduct, but dozens of streets in Syracuse will benefit from the project, funded by the state and federal governments.

Some city streets will be completely rebuilt, including what's on top and the water pipes underneath. Many others will be repaved."

When Sam Roberts was the state assemblyman for the district that includes most of this project, this was most of his rationale for supporting the tunnel (well that and all the construction union support he got). If they dig for a tunnel, the thinking went, the state and feds will pay for a good bit of sewer replacement as part of it.

I was glad to learn they account for this as part of every alternative.

 

[EastCoast2]

Again with lots of trees.

Let me be clear. I am pro tree. I love a good tree.

Can they flourish on Erie Boulevard? I think the salt, the heat from all the asphalt surrounding them, the emissions from the cars and trucks, the infrastructure and poisons in the ground where the roots are makes for an environment where the trees cannot succeed. I suspect the only way it might happen would be if there was a tree expert monitoring them and giving them love and expert care on a continual basis.

Is it worthwhile to even try? A healthy tree looks great. A dead or dying tree...not so much.

 

[OttoMets]

Maybe so but history says this is destined to fail. I can’t begin to count all the attempts to grow trees in this kind of a setting that have failed. We know there will be no budget to pamper the trees.

If they plant a ton of trees and they thrive, I would be delighted. Our city is pretty ugly.

I just think it would be good to be realistic for once.

FWIW, I think there's a lot more sections of the median that look like this than people are giving credit for:

And this is on one of the most urban portions of the street, between Teall/Columbus and Westmoreland.

The city-county arborist's position might not be popular, but it's logical: trees are a lot cheaper than labor; they're going to plant as many as possible in April and November; if 50% die, they'll try again next year. Eventually, even with a 50% success rate twice a year, the canopy will be restored with self-sustaining trees.

Anyway, the state is most definitely going to use a contractor for this work rather than let the city and county handle it. These contracts typically come with a one-year warranty on plantings. Enforcement is key, but there's no reason they shouldn't get the majority of the young trees to take. If you look at a similar scale of project, the Connective Corridor, nearly all the trees are in terrific shape 6 years in. The contractor replaced some of the plane trees that didn't take in the first season with a hardier variety. The only exception are some of the blocks where SU oversalts the sidewalks in the winter.

 

[sutomcat]

FWIW, I think there's a lot more sections of the median that look like this than people are giving credit for:
View attachment 161246
And this is on one of the most urban portions of the street, between Teall/Columbus and Westmoreland.

The city-county arborist's position might not be popular, but it's logical: trees are a lot cheaper than labor; they're going to plant as many as possible in April and November; if 50% die, they'll try again next year. Eventually, even with a 50% success rate twice a year, the canopy will be restored with self-sustaining trees.

Anyway, the state is most definitely going to use a contractor for this work rather than let the city and county handle it. These contracts typically come with a one-year warranty on plantings. Enforcement is key, but there's no reason they shouldn't get the majority of the young trees to take. If you look at a similar scale of project, the Connective Corridor, nearly all the trees are in terrific shape 6 years in. The contractor replaced some of the plane trees that didn't take in the first season with a hardier variety. The only exception are some of the blocks where SU oversalts the sidewalks in the winter.

I see a bunch of young trees there,some of which look very sick. Further, you (wisely) chose the area of the boulevard with the widest median in the city. I am not a tree expert but I suspect open surrounding space and distance from the road are important variables that playa big role in determining the long term viability of trees. From the diagrams I have seen, the plan is to put the bike paths in the middle of the median, which is the worst thing you could do if you wanted to set things up to be tree friendly. There won't be any areas like you are showing here. That is a park like setting with tons of room.

Haven't seen any mature trees thriving along the Connective Corridor. I will try and check them out the next time I am in the area.

I remember when I was a kid that Syracuse used to call itself Tree City. They still try, though things are dramatically worse now than then. I hope this works and it a first step towards making Syracuse beautiful again.

If the forestry people could figure out a way for elms to thrive again here, and we could get them planted and in place on James Street and elsewhere again, that would be incredible.

Tree Cities

 

[shandeezy7]

I see a bunch of young trees there,some of which look very sick. Further, you (wisely) chose the area of the boulevard with the widest median in the city. I am not a tree expert but I suspect open surrounding space and distance from the road are important variables that playa big role in determining the long term viability of trees. From the diagrams I have seen, the plan is to put the bike paths in the middle of the median, which is the worst thing you could do if you wanted to set things up to be tree friendly. There won't be any areas like you are showing here. That is a park like setting with tons of room.

Haven't seen any mature trees thriving along the Connective Corridor. I will try and check them out the next time I am in the area.

I remember when I was a kid that Syracuse used to call itself Tree City. They still try, though things are dramatically worse now than then. I hope this works and it a first step towards making Syracuse beautiful again.

If the forestry people could figure out a way for elms to thrive again here, and we could get them planted and in place on James Street and elsewhere again, that would be incredible.

Tree Cities

Dutch Elm disease and the Labor Day storm really devastated the mature tree population in Syracuse.

 

[FrancoPizza]

We've got ESF and Cornell. You'd hope the city has tapped those resources.

Great Trees for Urban (and Suburban) Yards - Networx

You don't need special experts to make this work. You need a predictable source of funding for this upkeep that won't be the first thing axed in a budget shortfall.

It would be a lot more honest and less manipulative if they provided renderings at year 1, year 5, and year 10 to reign in expectations. When they showed renderings of all 3 alternatives, it was almost comical how they dressed up the community grid views with a lush, tropical landscape and the other 2 alternatives were kept intentionally drab... as if greenery, landscaping, and conditions supporting life would not be possible with a tunnel or replacement viaduct.

 

[OttoMets]

I see a bunch of young trees there,some of which look very sick. Further, you (wisely) chose the area of the boulevard with the widest median in the city. I am not a tree expert but I suspect open surrounding space and distance from the road are important variables that playa big role in determining the long term viability of trees. From the diagrams I have seen, the plan is to put the bike paths in the middle of the median, which is the worst thing you could do if you wanted to set things up to be tree friendly. There won't be any areas like you are showing here. That is a park like setting with tons of room.

Haven't seen any mature trees thriving along the Connective Corridor. I will try and check them out the next time I am in the area.

I remember when I was a kid that Syracuse used to call itself Tree City. They still try, though things are dramatically worse now than then. I hope this works and it a first step towards making Syracuse beautiful again.

If the forestry people could figure out a way for elms to thrive again here, and we could get them planted and in place on James Street and elsewhere again, that would be incredible.

Tree Cities

There's a hybrid elm that someone developed a few years ago, I know New York City's experimenting with it. That'd be awesome to see it make a comeback.

I think decent soil and exposure to salt will be the enemies of the new trees on Erie; way too soon to see what happens on Almond. Those quasi-bare trees in my screenshot, btw, are just a type of fruit tree that gets dormant during dry summer stretches. They're OK. Things like honey locusts usually do well closer to the street, and I'm sure new Empire Trail plantings will include a lot of those.

 

[OttoMets]

Dutch Elm disease and the Labor Day storm really devastated the mature tree population in Syracuse.

Plus a) the Emerald Ash Borer and b) the generation of inattention since the storm - funding was slashed, neighbors who didn't request replacement street trees didn't get them, and development rarely took into account plantings. They get it now; the arborist has developed a tree master plan (think it's available on the website?) that aggressively increases the canopy.

 

[shandeezy7]

Plus a) the Emerald Ash Borer and b) the generation of inattention since the storm - funding was slashed, neighbors who didn't request replacement street trees didn't get them, and development rarely took into account plantings. They get it now; the arborist has developed a tree master plan (think it's available on the website?) that aggressively increases the canopy.

Their website has a listing of all the tree species that they plant in the city (at least, I believe that's what this is):

http://www.syracuse.ny.us/parks/treeSpeciesPlanted.html

 

[sutomcat]

Their website has a listing of all the tree species that they plant in the city (at least, I believe that's what this is):

http://www.syracuse.ny.us/parks/treeSpeciesPlanted.html

Their website has a listing of all the tree species that they plant in the city (at least, I believe that's what this is):

http://www.syracuse.ny.us/parks/treeSpeciesPlanted.html

Weird that the sugar locust trees OttoMets references are not listed.

This is what Plum Street looked like in 1956 before Dutch Elm disease hit.

Looks like Syracuse is still a 'tree city'.

Tree Cities

This is James Street circa 1900.

And this one is of Timon Street in Buffalo, a city that also longs for the return of the elm tree.

Why can't Syracuse be the place that brings the elm tree back? Are the hybrid elms as magnificent as these? Doesn't hosting the ESF campus bring us anything here?

 

[OttoMets]

Weird that the sugar locust trees OttoMets references are not listed.

This is what Plum Street looked like in 1956 before Dutch Elm disease hit.

Looks like Syracuse is still a 'tree city'.

Tree Cities

This is James Street circa 1900.

And this one is of Timon Street in Buffalo, a city that also longs for the return of the elm tree.

Why can't Syracuse be the place that brings the elm tree back? Are the hybrid elms as magnificent as these? Doesn't hosting the ESF campus bring us anything here?

Environmental Information Series

Interesting ESF elm info. Love those old photos.

Regarding Arbor Day's "Tree City" tag, it's kind of a joke. If I remember correctly, any municipality with a forestry department and an annual budget of $1 per capita can apply to become a Tree City. Thankfully Syracuse spends several times that amount.

 

[FrancoPizza]

While we’re on the topic, we’ve considered planting an Apple tree on our property as our kids have taken an interest in this sort of thing. Aside from watering and fertilizer, is there more work involved to keep fruit bearing trees happy? As opposed to planting a maple which seems less maintenance.

 

[OttoMets]

While we’re on the topic, we’ve considered planting an Apple tree on our property as our kids have taken an interest in this sort of thing. Aside from watering and fertilizer, is there more work involved to keep fruit bearing trees happy? As opposed to planting a maple which seems less maintenance.

I think you want a few of them for pollination purposes, from what I'm told.

Other than that, seems like mess is mostly the concern.

I had a neighbor with four plum trees. They did great, lot of fruit, but then they got zapped during an especially cold winter/spring and died.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I think you want a few of them for pollination purposes, from what I'm told.

Other than that, seems like mess is mostly the concern.

I had a neighbor with four plum trees. They did great, lot of fruit, but then they got zapped during an especially cold winter/spring and died.

I've heard about the pollination requirements so that's a bit of a concern. Damn, just how cold does it get in your neighborhood? Plum trees are zone 3 and can survive temperatures of -30 to -40F.

I'd wager they died from something else... or dysentery.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I never understood why the Dutch targeted elm trees

 

[KellySyracuse]

Why can't Syracuse be the place that brings the elm tree back? Are the hybrid elms as magnificent as these? Doesn't hosting the ESF campus bring us anything here?

There is a project to restore the Elm tree in Vermont

The Largest Elm Tree Restoration in the Northeast

And the American Chestnut, this chapter is managed by ESF

New York Archive | The American Chestnut Foundation

 

[sutomcat]

There is a project to restore the Elm tree in Vermont

The Largest Elm Tree Restoration in the Northeast

And the American Chestnut, this chapter is managed by ESF

New York Archive | The American Chestnut Foundation

That is great. The elm tree is an important part of Syracuse's heritage. We had over 50,000 in our city before 1950. What can we do to help get them back? Why hasn't a replanting of Dutch Elm resistant trees in Syracuse been started yet?

Does anyone know? Where are the stumpies when you need them? I know we have some on this board!

Tell me we are planting elms and I am on board 100%! If the problem is money, I will sign up to help! I have to believe a lot of people in CNY would donate to get restore the amazing elm canopy to some of our prominent streets.