Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[wiseman3]

Go ahead and tell your dozens of professional city-dwelling neighbors it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of them come in from outside the city.

I really don't know it that's accurate. Downtown Apartment occupancy is over 90%. I'd argue they are the main customers for Armory square, etc. Especially during the week

 

[orangecuse]

Interesting city/suburbs debate. In Rochester, we don't have an interstate slicing through the middle of downtown. But there are other challenges here and in Syracuse. It seems like, recently, both cities have been successful at revitalizing their entertainment districts and attracting new residents. Millenialls have helped tremendously - in fact, Syracuse center-city is alive and looks nothing like it did when I went to graduate school back in the day. The trick will be convincing those young people to stay and raise families.

Competition is keen. There are job opportunities and better weather elsewhere. One of the biggest obstacles, at least in Rochester, is poverty and its impact on the overall community. Here, 50% of the residents fit the federal definition. That means Crime. It means Urban blight. Homelessness. Addiction. Rampant school truancy. Low graduation rates. And the diversion of lots of tax dollars and law enforcement attention. Add these social and educational ills to typical urban annoyances - traffic, noise and the like - and you have serious quality of life issues. Rochester has struggled to alleviate these issues, despite pouring money into education and neighborhood revitalization for decades. Many of the legacy problems persist - including failing schools - that drove better educated/more affluent residents into the suburbs decades ago.

In many ways, Rochester has been its own worst enemy - and scores about a D attempting to close the suburban-urban economic divide. It has constructed attractive signage and landscaping to mark City neighborhoods. But residents and visitors want to feel safe, and the City uses community policing only in high-crime areas. Elsewhere the cops are absent or sit in their cars. City "planners" have widened streets to facilitate traffic, making it more difficult for pedestrians and visitors to navigate. Parking is a nightmare - especially in popular areas that draw millennials and suburbanites. Instead of buying land and offering better options, the City prefers to send out brigades of meter maids to extort revenue. Enforcement is unmerciful - fees are sky high and if you're unlucky enough to have your car towed, good luck - you won't be returning anytime soon. There are tons of potholes and one-way streets that make transiting downtown difficult, and except for the ball park and public market, the City offers few 'destinations' - places where people can get out of their cars, enjoy themselves and buy things.

The point is ... there are a lot of factors at work, in both cities, that have nothing to do with highway location.

Your last sentence is what really hits the nail on the head. I've lived in the suburbs of Charlotte now for 25 plus years, I-77 goes right through the city and yet it continues to grow and grow and grow...attracting people to both live & play in 'Uptown.'

 

[gocusecaz]

Your last sentence is what really hits the nail on the head. I've lived in the suburbs of Charlotte now for 25 plus years, I-77 goes right through the city and yet it continues to grow and grow and grow...attracting people to both live & play in 'Uptown.'

Aren't they making Independence Boulevard into a limited access highway? My son has lived in and around Charlotte for at least 15 years.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Looks like construction is starting on the Salt City Market soon. The fence went up this week.

 

[orangecuse]

Aren't they making Independence Boulevard into a limited access highway? My son has lived in and around Charlotte for at least 15 years.

They've done a lot of construction on Independence Blvd widening, new off/on ramps, etc. but it's not a high speed (limited access) artery as there are a ton of businesses, car dealerships, restaurants, etc. on adjacent sides of it.

 

[gocusecaz]

They've done a lot of construction on Independence Blvd widening, new off/on ramps, etc. but it's not a high speed (limited access) artery as there are a ton of businesses, car dealerships, restaurants, etc. on adjacent sides of it.

I knew they were doing something.

 

[CarolinaCuse]

It's going to be very interesting to see Gen-Z and their relationship with cars. My brother-in-law is 16 and at this point, neither he nor any of his friends have any real interest in driving or getting their license. The evolution of ride sharing (and even car sharing services like zipcar) and more emphasis on roads sharing space with bicycles could eventually start to put a dent in parking shortage issues, especially in high-density residential areas that have walkable shops, restaurants, bars and most importantly, grocery stores (although with grocery delivery services evolving, that could change that need as well).

I had the pleasure of seeing Danish architect Jan Gehl speak recently. It was so enlightening as to how our cities evolved after World War II and makes you wish we could start over with a primary focus of human interaction (or, as he says, architecture is the intersection of form and life). I think about that all of the time when talking about Syracuse and ideas such as what to do with I-81.

 

[General20]

All dependent on the money and people of the burbs. Also this millennial fad of overpaying for apartments down town will change when they start a family. They’ll run to the hills quicker than Iron Madden.

Question, do you think its possible to be a suburb of nothing?

While every city benefits in some ways from its suburbs, I don't think any city needs a suburb to exist. On the other hand, I have never heard of a suburb existing without a city.

In this situation Syracuse would be the heart of CNY and pick your suburb (Baldwinsville, lets say) would be an arm. You certainly don't ever want to lose your arm, but you can live without it. On the other hand, if the heart dies, the arms, legs, and every other body part dies with it.

One final point. Most of the apartments downtown cost upwards of 2 grand a month. They are not filled with young 20 somethings. Most people that age can't afford that kind of rent. You are misunderstanding the situation if you think the apartments are filled with young kids who are going to move out when they grow up.

While its true, millennials are moving to Syracuse in record numbers (I believe we are 2nd in the country for highest percentage of millennials moving in), most of them live in the established neighborhoods, which are not going anywhere and don't rely on the suburbs in any way, shape, or form.

 

[IthacaMatt]

One final point. Most of the apartments downtown cost upwards of 2 grand a month. They are not filled with young 20 somethings. Most people that age can't afford that kind of rent. You are misunderstanding the situation if you think the apartments are filled with young kids who are going to move out when they grow up.

No, actually most of the apartments downtown are filled with Syracuse University grad students, along with some young professionals. I work downtown among several of these new apartment buildings. It is by far mostly students, and very few older people (wealthy retirees).

 

[Cusefan0307]

No, actually most of the apartments downtown are filled with Syracuse University grad students, along with some young professionals. I work downtown among several of these new apartment buildings. It is by far mostly students, and very few older people (wealthy retirees).

I know at least 5 people I work with and another 2 that are my friends in their late 20's or early 30's that live downtown right now and none of them are students. I think that math needs to be checked.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I know at least 5 people I work with and another 2 that are my friends in their late 20's or early 30's that live downtown right now and none of them are students. I think that math needs to be checked.

Well, unless all those people are unemployed or work nights, I can't tell you how many not-dressed-for-work people I see downtown walking dogs in the morning or mid-day, how many people leaving the apartment buildings on Warren St. to go to the gym or to have lunch at Original Grain, etc. That says grad student population to me.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I know at least 5 people I work with and another 2 that are my friends in their late 20's or early 30's that live downtown right now and none of them are students. I think that math needs to be checked.

While the Downtown Committee counts about 4,000 people living Downtown, which they probably define a little more "tightly" to include only the best blocks, a demographics report on people living in Downtown Syracuse counts 6,200 total residents.

Of those 6,200 residents, the population is split almost 50/50 in terms of gender, and the average age of downtown residents is 26 years old. There are 2400 "households" in Downtown Syracuse, of which the average household size is 2 people.

Of those 2400 households, only 800 (1/3) are considered "Family Households" - meaning that 2/3 are roommate situations. Against, another sign pointing to students, and possibly young professionals.

However, of those 6,200 residents, only 1750 have jobs. Thus 72% are students, children or unemployed.

Average Household Income	$37,407.40
Median Household Income	$15,000.00

So, with average rents of over $2,000 per month, it's highly unlikely that a household earning $37,000 can afford the rent. That, too, is more indicative of students living in housing, not working people.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I understand that this is tax payer dollars, and I will confess that I don't see the direct correlation between a grid and a magical revitalization. The city would still be divided by a major thoroughfare. (I don't see a lot of back and forth across Erie Blvd., for instance. That said, I did read an article about the effects of Boston doing something similar, and the reviews were positive. Oppressive taxes, regulation and dreary skies are a far bigger impediment to revitalization that a raised highway.)
That said, I don't think this is a time for being cheap. Lets do it right. An additional $50M or $500M, amortized over 30-40 years, is relatively peanuts. If money were no object, what would be the plan. Then work from there.
If a large % of money is to be spent on materials, and workers from NY, then there will be a multiplication effect of money coming back into the state as the workers spend.

 

[CuseLegacy]

 

[Sudano]

I had the pleasure of seeing Danish architect Jan Gehl speak recently. It was so enlightening as to how our cities evolved after World War II and makes you wish we could start over with a primary focus of human interaction (or, as he says, architecture is the intersection of form and life). I think about that all of the time when talking about Syracuse and ideas such as what to do with I-81.

Savannah - The American Innovation!

 

[sutomcat]

While the Downtown Committee counts about 4,000 people living Downtown, which they probably define a little more "tightly" to include only the best blocks, a demographics report on people living in Downtown Syracuse counts 6,200 total residents.

Of those 6,200 residents, the population is split almost 50/50 in terms of gender, and the average age of downtown residents is 26 years old. There are 2400 "households" in Downtown Syracuse, of which the average household size is 2 people.

Of those 2400 households, only 800 (1/3) are considered "Family Households" - meaning that 2/3 are roommate situations. Against, another sign pointing to students, and possibly young professionals.

However, of those 6,200 residents, only 1750 have jobs. Thus 72% are students, children or unemployed.

Average Household Income	$37,407.40
Median Household Income	$15,000.00

So, with average rents of over $2,000 per month, it's highly unlikely that a household earning $37,000 can afford the rent. That, too, is more indicative of students living in housing, not working people.

The data you are looking at considers a big part of Pioneer Homes to be part of downtown, which skews the data so severely that a lot of your conclusions are questionable. That said, I rarely spend time down there and can’t comment on the population breakdown in this region of the city from personal experience.

I will question your claim of an average rent of $2000 a month for downtown apartments. Looking at a few web sites the list downtown apartments foe rent, that seems high. Something in the $1400-$1500 range is probably more accurate. That said, I am surprised people are paying these rates and occupation rates are so high. There are a lot of people with money living down there.

 

[wiseman3]

While the Downtown Committee counts about 4,000 people living Downtown, which they probably define a little more "tightly" to include only the best blocks, a demographics report on people living in Downtown Syracuse counts 6,200 total residents.

Of those 6,200 residents, the population is split almost 50/50 in terms of gender, and the average age of downtown residents is 26 years old. There are 2400 "households" in Downtown Syracuse, of which the average household size is 2 people.

Of those 2400 households, only 800 (1/3) are considered "Family Households" - meaning that 2/3 are roommate situations. Against, another sign pointing to students, and possibly young professionals.

However, of those 6,200 residents, only 1750 have jobs. Thus 72% are students, children or unemployed.

Average Household Income	$37,407.40
Median Household Income	$15,000.00

So, with average rents of over $2,000 per month, it's highly unlikely that a household earning $37,000 can afford the rent. That, too, is more indicative of students living in housing, not working people.

The average rent downtown is nowhere near over $2000 a month. If I had to guess its around $1300.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The average rent downtown is nowhere near over $2000 a month. If I had to guess its around $1300.

And some of those are Condo's you can buy...

 

[OttoMets]

The quotes you are using come from 1958. The arguing, like now went on for years. The final decision wasn’t made until November of 1961 and the election of William Walsh, a huge proponent of urban renewal used to revitalize downtown merging the
2 project objectives.

‘The irony of ironies is that former Syracuse Mayor William Walsh was a proponent of the urban renewal and his son, Rep. James Walsh, R- Onondaga, is working to reverse some of the problems that urban renewal either caused or did not address.

The elder Walsh told the Post-Standard that he was in favor of the renewal because he wanted to revitalize the downtown area in an attempt to encourage residents, some of whom had flocked to the suburbs, to remain in the city. The flight still occurred, and city officials are still trying to get people to return to downtown and the city. ‘

Above italicized quote was from Post Standard ‘s own editorial in 2003 called 40 years later (1963 to 2003).

I was just a young kid but I remember the conversations of families we knew who were affected back then and their emotion regarding their houses being torn down , the effect of the incessant construction noise and dirt etc from having their streets impacted from Rte 81 being built , arguments over the loss of neighbors, turning their prior multiple block long streets turned into dead ends etc. in their conversations, they blamed the city, city developers and the mayor for their plight.

I think there is some revisionist history as stated going on because of the irony regarding the Walsh’s and the understandable avoidance of publicly tarnishing his long positive legacy years after his death.

My point was that this Rte 81 situation wasn’t initiated by the suburbs , in fact much of the original Rte 81 decision was made by the city to try to stem the flight to the suburbs where major employers like GE, Carrier, Pass and Seymour, Solvay Process, GM etc were already located. Shoppingtown was built in 1954, Fairmont Fair in 1959, Bayberry in 1957. The suburbs were expanding well before Rte 81 and many not even targeted for highway access were growing the quickest. (Fayetteville, Manlius, Westvale, Camillus etc). I love the city, born, raised and owned my first home within the city but the fact is that unless you are a government employee, hospital employee, university employee or service employee related to those employers most of the largest city’s employers are within a quarter to a half mile within the city. The only available land and parking for large employers was in the suburbs even back in the 50’s. The people were following the employers to the suburbs and suburban shopping centers followed the people. The city has become the crucial ‘service capital’ for all of Onondaga County for government, hospital and college services. As others have stated, the city needs the suburbs and the suburbs need the city so it would be nice to stop the divisiveness that seems to overwhelm every issue in today’s world and respect and evaluate everyone’s needs into play.

This long article reminded me of your post from last week, it offers a decent partial history of I-81 and urban renewal: The Highway Was Supposed to Save This City. Can Tearing It Down Fix the Sins of the Past?

 

[Fly Rodder]

This long article reminded me of your post from last week, it offers a decent partial history of I-81 and urban renewal: The Highway Was Supposed to Save This City. Can Tearing It Down Fix the Sins of the Past?

Great article ... lots of smart bits in there.

Also, this development thread is now in its rightful home.

 

[OttoMets]

Great article ... lots of smart bits in there.

Also, this development thread is now in its rightful home.

Now that it's hidden on the dark side, I'm more comfortable making disparaging remarks about people like Minch Lewis.

 

[bballbeadle]

Great article ... lots of smart bits in there.

Also, this development thread is now in its rightful home.

I used to go to the football board to read this thread; also the one about campus development and dome renovation.

Innocent people are going to be diverted to this forum and I would hate to be the one doing mop up duty!

 

[ebucklewis]

I used to go to the football board to read this thread; also the one about campus development and dome renovation.

Innocent people are going to be diverted to this forum and I would hate to be the one doing mop up duty!

Don't be afraid of ordinary people seeing how crazy you lefties are when unencumbered - you are still part of the family! LGO

 

[shandeezy7]

I used to go to the football board to read this thread; also the one about campus development and dome renovation.

Innocent people are going to be diverted to this forum and I would hate to be the one doing mop up duty!

 

[KellySyracuse]