Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[SU68]

Interesting recollection, but not how it went down, at least according to this:

How I-81 came to be and why New York owes Syracuse for a 60-year-old mistake (David M. Rubin)

Interesting linked article. I wondered who the idiot governor was that forced the viaduct on the city. It was a Democrat, Averell Harriman. This surprised me since I always thought of him as more of a foreign policy expert.

 

[bevosu]

Interesting city/suburbs debate. In Rochester, we don't have an interstate slicing through the middle of downtown. But there are other parallels. Both cities have had success revitalizing down town. Returning Millenialls have helped tremendously - in fact, Syracuse downtown is alive and looks nothing like it did when I went to graduate school back in the day. It's convincing young people to stay in the City and raise families there that has been the challenge.

They leave for many reasons: job opportunities, weather and so forth. But one of the biggest factors, at least in Rochester, is poverty and it's associated impacts. Here, 50% of the residents fit the federal definition. That means Crime. It means Urban blight. Homelessness. High rates of addiction. High public school truancy. Low graduation rates, etc. Add those issues to the typical urban detractors - traffic, noise and the like - and you have serious quality of life issues. To alleviate this 'tale of two cities' syndrome, Rochester has been pouring money into education and neighborhood revitalization for decades. But many problems persist - especially failing schools - that drove better educated/more affluent residents into the suburbs decades ago.

Rochester scores about a D- trying to address the suburban - urban economic divide. It uses community policing only in high-crime areas. Elsewhere the cops are absent or sit in their cars. City "planners" have widened streets to facilitate traffic, making it more difficult for pedestrians and visitors to navigate. Parking is a nightmare - especially in popular areas that draw suburbanites. Instead of buying land and offering ground-level neighborhood parking options, the City prefers to send out brigades of meter maids who slap tickets on cars (some of which are owned by visitors). Enforcement is unmerciful - fees are sky high and if you're visiting from the suburbs and are unlucky enough to have your car towed, good luck - you won't be returning anytime soon. There are tons of potholes and one-way streets that make transiting downtown difficult, and except for the ball park and cultural district, the City offers few 'destinations' - places where people can get out of their cars, enjoy themselves and buy things.

So ... there are a lot of factors at play, in both cities, that have nothing to do with highway location.

I always found the Genesee River a problem when trying to get from one part of the city to another. Residents are probably used to it, but as a frequent visitor on business (pre-GPS), I found it confusing.

 

[OttoMets]

Interesting linked article. I wondered who the idiot governor was that forced the viaduct on the city. It was a Democrat, Averell Harriman. This surprised me since I always thought of him as more of a foreign policy expert.

He knew a lot about Formosa.

 

[reedny]

I always found the Genesee River a problem when trying to get from one part of the city to another. Residents are probably used to it, but as a frequent visitor on business (pre-GPS), I found it confusing.

The river is actually scenic - more of a draw than a barrier. You probably ran into the inner loop a little west of the river - an inner-city beltway built decades ago that became unpopular and is now being removed. Remaining are difficult one-way streets and traffic massing, along with cultural, political and social differences between the East and West sides.

 

[shandeezy7]

Interesting city/suburbs debate. In Rochester, we don't have an interstate slicing through the middle of downtown. But there are other challenges here and in Syracuse. It seems like, recently, both cities have been successful at revitalizing their entertainment districts and attracting new residents. Millenialls have helped tremendously - in fact, Syracuse center-city is alive and looks nothing like it did when I went to graduate school back in the day. The trick will be convincing those young people to stay and raise families.

Competition is keen. There are job opportunities and better weather elsewhere. One of the biggest obstacles, at least in Rochester, is poverty and its impact on the overall community. Here, 50% of the residents fit the federal definition. That means Crime. It means Urban blight. Homelessness. Addiction. Rampant school truancy. Low graduation rates. And the diversion of lots of tax dollars and law enforcement attention. Add these social and educational ills to typical urban annoyances - traffic, noise and the like - and you have serious quality of life issues. Rochester has struggled to alleviate these issues, despite pouring money into education and neighborhood revitalization for decades. Many of the legacy problems persist - including failing schools - that drove better educated/more affluent residents into the suburbs decades ago.

In many ways, Rochester has been its own worst enemy - and scores about a D attempting to close the suburban-urban economic divide. It has constructed attractive signage and landscaping to mark City neighborhoods. But residents and visitors want to feel safe, and the City uses community policing only in high-crime areas. Elsewhere the cops are absent or sit in their cars. City "planners" have widened streets to facilitate traffic, making it more difficult for pedestrians and visitors to navigate. Parking is a nightmare - especially in popular areas that draw millennials and suburbanites. Instead of buying land and offering better options, the City prefers to send out brigades of meter maids to extort revenue. Enforcement is unmerciful - fees are sky high and if you're unlucky enough to have your car towed, good luck - you won't be returning anytime soon. There are tons of potholes and one-way streets that make transiting downtown difficult, and except for the ball park and public market, the City offers few 'destinations' - places where people can get out of their cars, enjoy themselves and buy things.

The point is ... there are a lot of factors at work, in both cities, that have nothing to do with highway location.

You bring up some interesting points, but I think that the parking issue is completely overblown. People will park at the auxiliary lot half way to the inner harbor and walk to the mall, yet they feel inconvenienced if they have to park three-plus blocks away from their desired destination downtown. It's incredible.

I have never, in my life, had to park more than 4 or 5 blocks from my desired destination in downtown Syracuse, and that includes during festivals like Taste of Syracuse. Sometimes that involves shelling out $5 to park in a lot or garage, but most of the time, it's on-street parking that's free after 5 p.m.

The same debate is happening in Buffalo, and I've had the same experience there. Never do I have to park more than 4 or 5 blocks from where I'm trying to get to.

 

[reedny]

You bring up some interesting points, but I think that the parking issue is completely overblown. People will park at the auxiliary lot half way to the inner harbor and walk to the mall, yet they feel inconvenienced if they have to park three-plus blocks away from their desired destination downtown. It's incredible.

I have never, in my life, had to park more than 4 or 5 blocks from my desired destination in downtown Syracuse, and that includes during festivals like Taste of Syracuse. Sometimes that involves shelling out $5 to park in a lot or garage, but most of the time, it's on-street parking that's free after 5 p.m.

The same debate is happening in Buffalo, and I've had the same experience there. Never do I have to park more than 4 or 5 blocks from where I'm trying to get to.

I hear you, and I've learned a lot from your posts (and OttoMet's) about the Syracuse area. Interesting link about Buffalo. I'll follow up - big resurgence there also.

My parking comments were in reference to Rochester ... problems here are acute in the 'hot' areas like Park Avenue and the Cultural District. This is no accident, of course. Parking problems produce revenue - the City created the cultural district and other high density residential ares through its own zoning regulations, and benefits handsomely from the added tax revenue generated by multi-family housing - while simultaneously feasting on the parking shortages and enforcement fines. Like Syracuse, there are spots a ways away, but I would suggest that 4-5 blocks is far enough to create concerns for women walking by themselves at night. Either way, the City could do a lot more to alleviate a problem that they created and profit from.

 

[shandeezy7]

I hear you, and I've enjoyed and learned a lot from your posts (and OttoMet's) about the Syracuse area. Interesting link about Buffalo. I'll follow up - big resurgence there also.

My parking comments were in reference to Rochester ... problems here are acute in the 'hot' areas like Park Avenue and the Cultural District. This is no accident, of course. Parking problems produce revenue - the City created the cultural district and other high density residential ares through its own zoning regulations, and benefits handsomely from the added tax revenue produced by multi-family housing - while simultaneously feasting on the parking shortages and enforcement fines. Like Syracuse, there are spots a ways away, but I would suggest that 4-5 blocks is far enough to create concerns for women walking by themselves at night. Either way, the City could do a lot more to alleviate a problem that they clearly derive financial benefit from perpetuating.

It's going to be very interesting to see Gen-Z and their relationship with cars. My brother-in-law is 16 and at this point, neither he nor any of his friends have any real interest in driving or getting their license. The evolution of ride sharing (and even car sharing services like zipcar) and more emphasis on roads sharing space with bicycles could eventually start to put a dent in parking shortage issues, especially in high-density residential areas that have walkable shops, restaurants, bars and most importantly, grocery stores (although with grocery delivery services evolving, that could change that need as well).

 

[wiseman3]

Go ahead and tell your dozens of professional city-dwelling neighbors it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of them come in from outside the city.

I really don't know it that's accurate. Downtown Apartment occupancy is over 90%. I'd argue they are the main customers for Armory square, etc. Especially during the week

 

[orangecuse]

Interesting city/suburbs debate. In Rochester, we don't have an interstate slicing through the middle of downtown. But there are other challenges here and in Syracuse. It seems like, recently, both cities have been successful at revitalizing their entertainment districts and attracting new residents. Millenialls have helped tremendously - in fact, Syracuse center-city is alive and looks nothing like it did when I went to graduate school back in the day. The trick will be convincing those young people to stay and raise families.

Competition is keen. There are job opportunities and better weather elsewhere. One of the biggest obstacles, at least in Rochester, is poverty and its impact on the overall community. Here, 50% of the residents fit the federal definition. That means Crime. It means Urban blight. Homelessness. Addiction. Rampant school truancy. Low graduation rates. And the diversion of lots of tax dollars and law enforcement attention. Add these social and educational ills to typical urban annoyances - traffic, noise and the like - and you have serious quality of life issues. Rochester has struggled to alleviate these issues, despite pouring money into education and neighborhood revitalization for decades. Many of the legacy problems persist - including failing schools - that drove better educated/more affluent residents into the suburbs decades ago.

In many ways, Rochester has been its own worst enemy - and scores about a D attempting to close the suburban-urban economic divide. It has constructed attractive signage and landscaping to mark City neighborhoods. But residents and visitors want to feel safe, and the City uses community policing only in high-crime areas. Elsewhere the cops are absent or sit in their cars. City "planners" have widened streets to facilitate traffic, making it more difficult for pedestrians and visitors to navigate. Parking is a nightmare - especially in popular areas that draw millennials and suburbanites. Instead of buying land and offering better options, the City prefers to send out brigades of meter maids to extort revenue. Enforcement is unmerciful - fees are sky high and if you're unlucky enough to have your car towed, good luck - you won't be returning anytime soon. There are tons of potholes and one-way streets that make transiting downtown difficult, and except for the ball park and public market, the City offers few 'destinations' - places where people can get out of their cars, enjoy themselves and buy things.

The point is ... there are a lot of factors at work, in both cities, that have nothing to do with highway location.

Your last sentence is what really hits the nail on the head. I've lived in the suburbs of Charlotte now for 25 plus years, I-77 goes right through the city and yet it continues to grow and grow and grow...attracting people to both live & play in 'Uptown.'

 

[gocusecaz]

Your last sentence is what really hits the nail on the head. I've lived in the suburbs of Charlotte now for 25 plus years, I-77 goes right through the city and yet it continues to grow and grow and grow...attracting people to both live & play in 'Uptown.'

Aren't they making Independence Boulevard into a limited access highway? My son has lived in and around Charlotte for at least 15 years.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Looks like construction is starting on the Salt City Market soon. The fence went up this week.

 

[orangecuse]

Aren't they making Independence Boulevard into a limited access highway? My son has lived in and around Charlotte for at least 15 years.

They've done a lot of construction on Independence Blvd widening, new off/on ramps, etc. but it's not a high speed (limited access) artery as there are a ton of businesses, car dealerships, restaurants, etc. on adjacent sides of it.

 

[gocusecaz]

They've done a lot of construction on Independence Blvd widening, new off/on ramps, etc. but it's not a high speed (limited access) artery as there are a ton of businesses, car dealerships, restaurants, etc. on adjacent sides of it.

I knew they were doing something.

 

[CarolinaCuse]

It's going to be very interesting to see Gen-Z and their relationship with cars. My brother-in-law is 16 and at this point, neither he nor any of his friends have any real interest in driving or getting their license. The evolution of ride sharing (and even car sharing services like zipcar) and more emphasis on roads sharing space with bicycles could eventually start to put a dent in parking shortage issues, especially in high-density residential areas that have walkable shops, restaurants, bars and most importantly, grocery stores (although with grocery delivery services evolving, that could change that need as well).

I had the pleasure of seeing Danish architect Jan Gehl speak recently. It was so enlightening as to how our cities evolved after World War II and makes you wish we could start over with a primary focus of human interaction (or, as he says, architecture is the intersection of form and life). I think about that all of the time when talking about Syracuse and ideas such as what to do with I-81.

 

[General20]

All dependent on the money and people of the burbs. Also this millennial fad of overpaying for apartments down town will change when they start a family. They’ll run to the hills quicker than Iron Madden.

Question, do you think its possible to be a suburb of nothing?

While every city benefits in some ways from its suburbs, I don't think any city needs a suburb to exist. On the other hand, I have never heard of a suburb existing without a city.

In this situation Syracuse would be the heart of CNY and pick your suburb (Baldwinsville, lets say) would be an arm. You certainly don't ever want to lose your arm, but you can live without it. On the other hand, if the heart dies, the arms, legs, and every other body part dies with it.

One final point. Most of the apartments downtown cost upwards of 2 grand a month. They are not filled with young 20 somethings. Most people that age can't afford that kind of rent. You are misunderstanding the situation if you think the apartments are filled with young kids who are going to move out when they grow up.

While its true, millennials are moving to Syracuse in record numbers (I believe we are 2nd in the country for highest percentage of millennials moving in), most of them live in the established neighborhoods, which are not going anywhere and don't rely on the suburbs in any way, shape, or form.

 

[IthacaMatt]

One final point. Most of the apartments downtown cost upwards of 2 grand a month. They are not filled with young 20 somethings. Most people that age can't afford that kind of rent. You are misunderstanding the situation if you think the apartments are filled with young kids who are going to move out when they grow up.

No, actually most of the apartments downtown are filled with Syracuse University grad students, along with some young professionals. I work downtown among several of these new apartment buildings. It is by far mostly students, and very few older people (wealthy retirees).

 

[Cusefan0307]

No, actually most of the apartments downtown are filled with Syracuse University grad students, along with some young professionals. I work downtown among several of these new apartment buildings. It is by far mostly students, and very few older people (wealthy retirees).

I know at least 5 people I work with and another 2 that are my friends in their late 20's or early 30's that live downtown right now and none of them are students. I think that math needs to be checked.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I know at least 5 people I work with and another 2 that are my friends in their late 20's or early 30's that live downtown right now and none of them are students. I think that math needs to be checked.

Well, unless all those people are unemployed or work nights, I can't tell you how many not-dressed-for-work people I see downtown walking dogs in the morning or mid-day, how many people leaving the apartment buildings on Warren St. to go to the gym or to have lunch at Original Grain, etc. That says grad student population to me.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I know at least 5 people I work with and another 2 that are my friends in their late 20's or early 30's that live downtown right now and none of them are students. I think that math needs to be checked.

While the Downtown Committee counts about 4,000 people living Downtown, which they probably define a little more "tightly" to include only the best blocks, a demographics report on people living in Downtown Syracuse counts 6,200 total residents.

Of those 6,200 residents, the population is split almost 50/50 in terms of gender, and the average age of downtown residents is 26 years old. There are 2400 "households" in Downtown Syracuse, of which the average household size is 2 people.

Of those 2400 households, only 800 (1/3) are considered "Family Households" - meaning that 2/3 are roommate situations. Against, another sign pointing to students, and possibly young professionals.

However, of those 6,200 residents, only 1750 have jobs. Thus 72% are students, children or unemployed.

Average Household Income	$37,407.40
Median Household Income	$15,000.00

So, with average rents of over $2,000 per month, it's highly unlikely that a household earning $37,000 can afford the rent. That, too, is more indicative of students living in housing, not working people.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I understand that this is tax payer dollars, and I will confess that I don't see the direct correlation between a grid and a magical revitalization. The city would still be divided by a major thoroughfare. (I don't see a lot of back and forth across Erie Blvd., for instance. That said, I did read an article about the effects of Boston doing something similar, and the reviews were positive. Oppressive taxes, regulation and dreary skies are a far bigger impediment to revitalization that a raised highway.)
That said, I don't think this is a time for being cheap. Lets do it right. An additional $50M or $500M, amortized over 30-40 years, is relatively peanuts. If money were no object, what would be the plan. Then work from there.
If a large % of money is to be spent on materials, and workers from NY, then there will be a multiplication effect of money coming back into the state as the workers spend.

 

[CuseLegacy]

 

[Sudano]

I had the pleasure of seeing Danish architect Jan Gehl speak recently. It was so enlightening as to how our cities evolved after World War II and makes you wish we could start over with a primary focus of human interaction (or, as he says, architecture is the intersection of form and life). I think about that all of the time when talking about Syracuse and ideas such as what to do with I-81.

Savannah - The American Innovation!

 

[sutomcat]

While the Downtown Committee counts about 4,000 people living Downtown, which they probably define a little more "tightly" to include only the best blocks, a demographics report on people living in Downtown Syracuse counts 6,200 total residents.

Of those 6,200 residents, the population is split almost 50/50 in terms of gender, and the average age of downtown residents is 26 years old. There are 2400 "households" in Downtown Syracuse, of which the average household size is 2 people.

Of those 2400 households, only 800 (1/3) are considered "Family Households" - meaning that 2/3 are roommate situations. Against, another sign pointing to students, and possibly young professionals.

However, of those 6,200 residents, only 1750 have jobs. Thus 72% are students, children or unemployed.

Average Household Income	$37,407.40
Median Household Income	$15,000.00

So, with average rents of over $2,000 per month, it's highly unlikely that a household earning $37,000 can afford the rent. That, too, is more indicative of students living in housing, not working people.

The data you are looking at considers a big part of Pioneer Homes to be part of downtown, which skews the data so severely that a lot of your conclusions are questionable. That said, I rarely spend time down there and can’t comment on the population breakdown in this region of the city from personal experience.

I will question your claim of an average rent of $2000 a month for downtown apartments. Looking at a few web sites the list downtown apartments foe rent, that seems high. Something in the $1400-$1500 range is probably more accurate. That said, I am surprised people are paying these rates and occupation rates are so high. There are a lot of people with money living down there.

 

[wiseman3]

While the Downtown Committee counts about 4,000 people living Downtown, which they probably define a little more "tightly" to include only the best blocks, a demographics report on people living in Downtown Syracuse counts 6,200 total residents.

Of those 6,200 residents, the population is split almost 50/50 in terms of gender, and the average age of downtown residents is 26 years old. There are 2400 "households" in Downtown Syracuse, of which the average household size is 2 people.

Of those 2400 households, only 800 (1/3) are considered "Family Households" - meaning that 2/3 are roommate situations. Against, another sign pointing to students, and possibly young professionals.

However, of those 6,200 residents, only 1750 have jobs. Thus 72% are students, children or unemployed.

Average Household Income	$37,407.40
Median Household Income	$15,000.00

So, with average rents of over $2,000 per month, it's highly unlikely that a household earning $37,000 can afford the rent. That, too, is more indicative of students living in housing, not working people.

The average rent downtown is nowhere near over $2000 a month. If I had to guess its around $1300.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The average rent downtown is nowhere near over $2000 a month. If I had to guess its around $1300.

And some of those are Condo's you can buy...