Diehards Giving Up

[tptcuse]

I wouldn't say the last decade, eg., Maybe the year Covid hit a lot of people experienced bad times when that occurred.

2012-2013	30​	10​	.750​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Final Four
2013-2014	28​	6​	.824​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Round of 32
2014-2015	18​	13​	.581​	Jim Boeheim	Banned from Post Season Activity
2015-2016	23​	14​	.622​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Final Four
2016-2017	19​	15​	.559​	Jim Boeheim	NIT 2nd Round
2017-2018	23​	14​	.622​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2018-2019	20​	14​	.588​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA First Round

Look at the win percentage from '14-'15 on.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Then they were never 'diehards' by definition.

The term is die hard. Not never die or immortal .

 

[dan7800]

I wouldn't say the last decade, eg., Maybe the year Covid hit a lot of people experienced bad times when that occurred.

2012-2013	30​	10​	.750​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Final Four
2013-2014	28​	6​	.824​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Round of 32
2014-2015	18​	13​	.581​	Jim Boeheim	Banned from Post Season Activity
2015-2016	23​	14​	.622​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Final Four
2016-2017	19​	15​	.559​	Jim Boeheim	NIT 2nd Round
2017-2018	23​	14​	.622​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2018-2019	20​	14​	.588​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA First Round

I think the FF masked some bad years

 

[kcsu]

The program took a massive blow when JB pulled his shenanigans and didn't turn the program over to our coach in waiting. That was the beginning of the end.
Next year we actually have an opportunity to rebuild and rebound because of Melo. Next year isn't about Red. Next year Red isn't going to be anywhere near in control. Head coach. Yes . In control of the program, only partially. JW, Melo, and the top boosters will be pulling the strings. The GM with Melos input and financial backing are going to have more influence on roster construction than Red.
Red will get to coach them and how he coaches and manages games will determine his future. I seriously doubt Red is going to have final say on who we allocate NIL funds to next year. He had that privilege for this season and blew it. He's not going to get a second chance.

 

[SUbear]

Red's year last year shouldn't judged based on this year it should be judged based on the previous few years. In that context it was a good job. The problem is that there has been no building on that and instead we've seen regression. If we looked organized and played hard, I could take a little hardship with some nice young players on the roster and a couple more coming next year. However, we look the opposite of organized and play lackadaisically.

The goalposts moved a long time ago. When people started being satisfied with being on the good side of the bubble, hoping to make an unlikely run to the sweet 16 instead of being disappointed we weren't a top 4 seed, the goalposts had been moved and cemented in a new place.

For me the team is neither entertaining, nor technically improving. Both are largely related to coaching and coaching philosophy. Do we currently have top tier talent? In my opinion no. But neither is the talent bad enough to be underperforming at our current level.

 

[Todd23]

I was hopeful going into this year with four veteran portal transfers. We've seen other teams have a bunch of veterans and grown men combine with some young talent (i.e., Freeman and Moore) and have success. It obviously isn't working for Syracuse.

Everything in our household stops for Syracuse Basketball. If there is a game, I'm watching it. It's appointment viewing.

I remember my Dad renting the moving Inspector Gadget. He started watching it and it was horrible. But since he paid for it, he continued and finished watching it (with a couple of touches of the fast forward button), even though it was making him miserable. That's how I felt during the Maryland game.

I don't think I'll ever turn a game off. But I'm starting to consider it. And I haven't been to a game in person in 5 or 6 years. It's just not a good value at such a high price point.

 

[SmilinBob]

I think the FF masked some bad years

Agree and the FF's were matchup problems for teams not facing a zone.

 

[Newhouser]

The program took a massive blow when JB pulled his shenanigans and didn't turn the program over to our coach in waiting. That was the beginning of the end.
Next year we actually have an opportunity to rebuild and rebound because of Melo. Next year isn't about Red. Next year Red isn't going to be anywhere near in control. Head coach. Yes . In control of the program, only partially. JW, Melo, and the top boosters will be pulling the strings. The GM with Melos input and financial backing are going to have more influence on roster construction than Red.
Red will get to coach them and how he coaches and manages games will determine his future. I seriously doubt Red is going to have final say on who we allocate NIL funds to next year. He had that privilege for this season and blew it. He's not going to get a second chance.

If we are only keeping Red on next year to coach, everyone affiliated with the program should be fired with him.

 

[Cuse1055]

I think the FF masked some bad years

Good point and I know we have gone over this before, but we have not had a good regular season since 2013-2014. The NCAA tournament runs (in years we barely snuck in) mask the mediocre-to-bad regular seasons we have had for over 10 years now.

 

[50YRsofCuse]

54 diehard years for me.

57 die hard years going on 58. Hope to make at least 60 years health permitting

 

[sufandu]

I was hopeful going into this year with four veteran portal transfers. We've seen other teams have a bunch of veterans and grown men combine with some young talent (i.e., Freeman and Moore) and have success. It obviously isn't working for Syracuse.

Everything in our household stops for Syracuse Basketball. If there is a game, I'm watching it. It's appointment viewing.

I remember my Dad renting the moving Inspector Gadget. He started watching it and it was horrible. But since he paid for it, he continued and finished watching it (with a couple of touches of the fast forward button), even though it was making him miserable. That's how I felt during the Maryland game.

I don't think I'll ever turn a game off. But I'm starting to consider it. And I haven't been to a game in person in 5 or 6 years. It's just not a good value at such a high price point.

I had dvr'd the Maryland game. I knew the outcome before starting to watch but started watching anyway. I typically watch games all the way through. After a few minutes I turned it off and watched playoff games. It's terrible basketball and frustrating to see my team be dysfunctional.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

After reading through the threads my greatest concern is that even the diehards are giving up hope. You expect the casual fan to only be interested when the team is winning, but when life long fans have lost interest in even watching the team we are in trouble.
I know fans come back quickly when winning starts but it seems we are at an all time low.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise but there is a much bigger picture.

1) Most diehards started watching in the 80's or before. This puts them at a certain age. Change does not come as easy for those people. There has been a lot of change surrounding not only this program but CBB in general.

2) Brings us to the portal and NIL. It sucks for most programs outside of SEC schools. Hopefully someone like Alex Kline sticks around and can make a difference for our program.

3) Conference realignment. Right now you look at the CBB rankings and only one ACC team is ranked in the top 32. Should that give us hope or despair? As I scroll down the teams that are ranked, I have to admit there are some teams that I am not 100% sure what conference they are in. I just know they aren't in the ACC.

4a) What can Syracuse offer? We know the dome is a great selling point, but not when it's empty. The history? It's there for us old people but not for a 16 year old. Current Cuse players in the NBA aren't moving many needles.

4b) Family. Its a nice story in this money grabbing world. Red has absolutely struggled and most people want an outsider brought in. WWMD? What would Melo Do? Right now he probably has or probably should have the biggest influence on the program.

5) Kiyan Anthony. We know Kiyan most likely won't carry the Cuse to a NC, but under the right situation can he help right the ship. Will enough other people want to play with Kiyan and Saddiq. Or will this be another missed opportunity for the Syracuse basketball program.

 

[br801]

The term is die hard. Not never die or immortal .

As a noun, 'diehard,' 'die-hard,' or ''die hard' are all acceptable when describing what is being discussed here.

 

[Lukeyloo]

A decade of mediocrity. SU football (the sport everyone has thought were least equipped to compete in) has been ranked multiple times since the last time SUMBB was ranked in-season!

Usually a program at least has one good season every so often to keep hope alive. Sans miracle runs in the tournament, this program has been irrelevantly mediocre for a long time now.

 

[Red2003]

A decade of mediocrity. SU football (the sport everyone has thought were least equipped to compete in) has been ranked multiple times since the last time SUMBB was ranked in-season!

Usually a program at least has one good season every so often to keep hope alive. Sans miracle runs in the tournament, this program has been irrelevantly mediocre for a long time now.

 

[Jack_Ball]

The program took a massive blow when JB pulled his shenanigans and didn't turn the program over to our coach in waiting. That was the beginning of the end.
Next year we actually have an opportunity to rebuild and rebound because of Melo. Next year isn't about Red. Next year Red isn't going to be anywhere near in control. Head coach. Yes . In control of the program, only partially. JW, Melo, and the top boosters will be pulling the strings. The GM with Melos input and financial backing are going to have more influence on roster construction than Red.
Red will get to coach them and how he coaches and manages games will determine his future. I seriously doubt Red is going to have final say on who we allocate NIL funds to next year. He had that privilege for this season and blew it. He's not going to get a second chance.

This is how Auburn runs its football program & more often than not it doesnt work. Too many cooks in the kitchen without a clear leader. JW needs to discuss with Melo when they come up for Wake game to see where they are at because if thats the plan you tell me for my son I jump ship.

 

[jr4750]

The program took a massive blow when JB pulled his shenanigans and didn't turn the program over to our coach in waiting. That was the beginning of the end.
Next year we actually have an opportunity to rebuild and rebound because of Melo. Next year isn't about Red. Next year Red isn't going to be anywhere near in control. Head coach. Yes . In control of the program, only partially. JW, Melo, and the top boosters will be pulling the strings. The GM with Melos input and financial backing are going to have more influence on roster construction than Red.
Red will get to coach them and how he coaches and manages games will determine his future. I seriously doubt Red is going to have final say on who we allocate NIL funds to next year. He had that privilege for this season and blew it. He's not going to get a second chance.

Nailed it with your first sentence. Others have said the same, but when Buddy became a legit D1 player, for which he certainly was, we were screwed. JB did not manage those teams well at all and prior to that had been cruising too much. Way too many years were gifted to him on the end of his career. That said, many had spoken for years, TinyManInside especially, that JB would not go willingly. That proved very true and it seemed like SU just mismanaged that situation totally.

 

[Cusefan95]

I'm not disagreeing with the premise but there is a much bigger picture.

1) Most diehards started watching in the 80's or before. This puts them at a certain age. Change does not come as easy for those people. There has been a lot of change surrounding not only this program but CBB in general.

2) Brings us to the portal and NIL. It sucks for most programs outside of SEC schools. Hopefully someone like Alex Kline sticks around and can make a difference for our program.

3) Conference realignment. Right now you look at the CBB rankings and only one ACC team is ranked in the top 32. Should that give us hope or despair? As I scroll down the teams that are ranked, I have to admit there are some teams that I am not 100% sure what conference they are in. I just know they aren't in the ACC.

4a) What can Syracuse offer? We know the dome is a great selling point, but not when it's empty. The history? It's there for us old people but not for a 16 year old. Current Cuse players in the NBA aren't moving many needles.

4b) Family. Its a nice story in this money grabbing world. Red has absolutely struggled and most people want an outsider brought in. WWMD? What would Melo Do? Right now he probably has or probably should have the biggest influence on the program.

5) Kiyan Anthony. We know Kiyan most likely won't carry the Cuse to a NC, but under the right situation can he help right the ship. Will enough other people want to play with Kiyan and Saddiq. Or will this be another missed opportunity for the Syracuse basketball program.

So the main reason for keeping Red - keeping Kiyan - won’t carry Syracuse to a NC. Realistically that means we’re shooting for the back half of the top 25. With a coach who has shown no in-game coaching ability, mismanaged NIL, and seems to have no eye for talent.

It feels like the vision here is that Kiyan creeps us into being barely relevant…then a miracle happens and suddenly Red develops all the skills he’s shown he doesn’t have so we return to relevance. That seems…unwise.

There might be a lot of fine detail in the big picture - but broadly the issue is we stink and there’s no reason to think we won’t stink at any point in the future. It’s hard to excite even die hards when that’s where the program is at.

 

[Cusefan95]

This is how Auburn runs its football program & more often than not it doesnt work. Too many cooks in the kitchen without a clear leader. JW needs to discuss with Melo when they come up for Wake game to see where they are at because if thats the plan you tell me for my son I jump ship.

I’ve compared our situation to Auburn football on these boards - we both appear to be programs way too dependent on boosters with their own personal agendas to be successful. The “we can’t let Red go; we need Melo’s money!” is just reinforcing how completely screwed Syracuse basketball is to me.

 

[kcsu]

 Or

So the main reason for keeping Red - keeping Kiyan - won’t carry Syracuse to a NC. Realistically that means we’re shooting for the back half of the top 25. With a coach who has shown no in-game coaching ability, mismanaged NIL, and seems to have no eye for talent.

It feels like the vision here is that Kiyan creeps us into being barely relevant…then a miracle happens and suddenly Red develops all the skills he’s shown he doesn’t have so we return to relevance. That seems…unwise.

There might be a lot of fine detail in the big picture - but broadly the issue is we stink and there’s no reason to think we won’t stink at any point in the future. It’s hard to excite even die hards when that’s where the program is at.

Or, We have a decent year and Red is fired and replaced with a new coach who is backed by Melo, the other key boosters and we move forward with their support and backing.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Which reminds me… when do we play next?

Edit- looks like Saturday.

 

[FrancoPizza]

what maybe sadder is there are kids in high school who have no memory of a great Cuse team (2010). They grew up only knowing mediocrity and that’s not a good way to create the fanbase we knew.

And that is far far FAR worse than any single bad season. We’ve seen this on the football side. Losing a generation is enormously difficult to correct.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

The program took a massive blow when JB pulled his shenanigans and didn't turn the program over to our coach in waiting. That was the beginning of the end.
Next year we actually have an opportunity to rebuild and rebound because of Melo. Next year isn't about Red. Next year Red isn't going to be anywhere near in control. Head coach. Yes . In control of the program, only partially. JW, Melo, and the top boosters will be pulling the strings. The GM with Melos input and financial backing are going to have more influence on roster construction than Red.
Red will get to coach them and how he coaches and manages games will determine his future. I seriously doubt Red is going to have final say on who we allocate NIL funds to next year. He had that privilege for this season and blew it. He's not going to get a second chance.

Sounds like a recipe to be even worse next year.

Kiyan even as good or better than JJ or Moore? If he's not a PG where will he play?

But I guess if Carmelo gets Red a stay of execution him giving Kiyan the Carlos treatment only makes sense.

 

[Archimedes]

I’ve compared our situation to Auburn football on these boards - we both appear to be programs way too dependent on boosters with their own personal agendas to be successful. The “we can’t let Red go; we need Melo’s money!” is just reinforcing how completely screwed Syracuse basketball is to me.

Basketball needs a foundation stronger than "Melo's money." In one year, Fran offered up:

- DART
- "Optional" team community service
- Team attendance at church/"Mustard Seed"
- Regular public praise for the value of an SU education
- A program to provide guaranteed jobs for players after football

Those are things the kids can fall back on in sports and life. NIL is the cherry on top. The foundation is tangible too. My son and I arrived early for the UConn game to watch warm ups. What struck me most is how happy everyone on our sideline looked. Players, coaches, JW, croots, everyone. That's not money. Build the same foundation and basketball will get to the same place.

 

[Cusefan95]

 Or

Or, We have a decent year and Red is fired and replaced with a new coach who is backed by Melo, the other key boosters and we move forward with their support and backing.

So - we can’t let Red go now because Melo would be unhappy - but in a year, everything is gonna change for some unknown reason.

The position of the people who want to keep Red is absolutely insane, there’s just no way to justify it - do you realize how absolutely bonkers your position sounds?