Diehards Giving Up

[RF2044]

Nailed it with your first sentence. Others have said the same, but when Buddy became a legit D1 player, for which he certainly was, we were screwed. JB did not manage those teams well at all and prior to that had been cruising too much. Way too many years were gifted to him on the end of his career. That said, many had spoke for years, TinyManInside especially, that JB would not go willingly. That proved very true and it seemed like SU just mismanaged that situation totally.

Agree 100%. Including how his replacement was selected, which through the lens of hindsight appears to be another mismanaged aspect to this unfortunate situation.

 

[kcsu]

Sounds like a recipe to be even worse next year.

Kiyan even as good or better than JJ or Moore? If he's not a PG where will he play?

But I guess if Carmelo gets Red a stay of execution him giving Kiyan the Carlos treatment only makes sense.

If not for Kiyan and Melo i agree Red would need to be replaced. But he is a very good recruiter and players win games. JJ being out is a massive blow. He completely missed on Dry Rub and Carlos that's on him but with the GM and others looking in Red isn't going to be making these decisions in a vacuum. Spend money on keeping Choppa and Donnie. Add a good PG and Center, bring back JJ and see what happens. If it works great if not he's gone.

 

[Marsh01]

its not giving up its more like I dont get upset anymore. I dont let it ruin my day when they lose

 

[kcsu]

So - we can’t let Red go now because Melo would be unhappy - but in a year, everything is gonna change for some unknown reason.

The position of the people who want to keep Red is absolutely insane, there’s just no way to justify it - do you realize how absolutely bonkers your position sounds?

Yes, it is bonkers with the exception that most important SU player in modern history has his son coming to Syracuse. You know the one with his name on the building. That famous guy and his famous family. Probably don't want to alienate him.

 

[JeffCuse]

If not for Kiyan and Melo i agree Red would need to be replaced. But he is a very good recruiter and players win games. JJ being out is a massive blow. He completely missed on Dry Rub and Carlos that's on him but with the GM and others looking in Red isn't going to be making these decisions in a vacuum. Spend money on keeping Choppa and Donnie. Add a good PG and Center, bring back JJ and see what happens. If it works great if not he's gone.

Hire Melo as an assistant

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

If not for Kiyan and Melo i agree Red would need to be replaced. But he is a very good recruiter and players win games. JJ being out is a massive blow. He completely missed on Dry Rub and Carlos that's on him but with the GM and others looking in Red isn't going to be making these decisions in a vacuum. Spend money on keeping Choppa and Donnie. Add a good PG and Center, bring back JJ and see what happens. If it works great if not he's gone.

I'd rather get rid of everyone but Donnie and start over I think people are still struggling to accept how much certain guys suck on D.

We lost our 3 best defenders from last year and plenty of us saw this coming but the bs narrative about team chemistry was trotted out just like before the Jimmy Jr season.

How much better portal bigs will we get than Lamp and Davis?

How can there be room for all of Moore Starling and Kiyan?

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

No need to thrash Red after every game - what really can you expect?

We can expect good coaching regardless of talent level (although the talent level itself is ALSO on Red). That, clear as day, is not happening.

 

[phil77]

I’ve compared our situation to Auburn football on these boards - we both appear to be programs way too dependent on boosters with their own personal agendas to be successful. The “we can’t let Red go; we need Melo’s money!” is just reinforcing how completely screwed Syracuse basketball is to me.

Melo money is the funniest thing I have seen so far. If Melo money had that kind of pull and he actually wanted the best for his son and Syracuse then he should use his money to bring the best coach he could to Syracuse next year (hint that is not the current Syracuse coach].

 

[powdersmack]

...JJ being out is a massive blow.

This team was a massive dumpster fire prior to losing JJ.

 

[CuseBlood44]

The fans, like the program, are apathetic. It speaks to the strength of our fan base we still get 15k. The fans deserve better. Taking a shot in the Ark State coach has to be the next move and it should happen after this season. CBB doesn’t have that many proven coaches since the old guard stepped down and the ones that are around are married to their programs such as Mark Few.

I truly think one of the major issues is our boosters have long relationships with JB, Autry, and the assistants. They have access to the program that they may no longer have with an outside hire. It’s even noticeable on this board with the most connected posters being the most reluctant to acknowledge program atrophy.

Look at what happened with Georgetown “keeping it in the family” for decades due to similar reasons. We are on that trajectory towards complete irrelevance with an inability to string together winning seasons.

Miami pulled the trigger first on initiating change, now we all need to hope they don’t pluck Hogson

 

[kcsu]

Melo money is the funniest thing I have seen so far. If Melo money had that kind of pull and he actually wanted the best for his son and Syracuse then he should use his money to bring the best coach he could to Syracuse next year (hint that is not the current Syracuse coach].

Do you think that maybe he likes Red

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

Do you think that maybe he likes Red

More than his son's developmental prospects? Hell no.

 

[phil77]

Do you think that maybe he likes Red

Liking Red and thinking he is a good coach and can help develop his sons skill to get him to the NBA are 2 different things.

 

[MikeSU02]

What I expected was progress from year 1. Not a step backwards in virtually every respect of team play, discipline, roster management, zero player development, huge misses via the portal, and an experienced starter playing exponentially worse than last year.

Last year was adequate, not "great," relative to the previous several years. It was a positive sign, but we're regressed down to the HC's level of competence, I fear. THAT's the reason to point it out. Who put the talent on hand together?

This is exactly what the takeaway should be. Instead, as has been the case, people are thinking that as long as like seventeen things go right, we'll be ok next year.

Maliq and Judah are better than any two guys on this team right now. That is what I take away from last year.

So I have this right (not directed at you RF2044) , just based on this thread, for us to be better next year:

Red gets better at coaching by an order of magnitude
Donnie and Choppa come back (this is a huge assumption)
Our new front office hits on at least 2-3 high level portal guys with no misses (to be clear, I think colleges should be set up to have a POBO/GM).
Our frosh can all play

I think that is a lot to hope for with a brand new front office, expecting Red to be a much better coach and then also hoping Donnie and Choppa stick around.

All of this is unlikely to happen together, with the most likely not happening is Red growing enough as a coach.

But, again, if we're just talking making the NCAAT, maybe we can get there.

 

[LAorange44]

This is exactly what the takeaway should be. Instead, as has been the case, people are thinking that as long as like seventeen things go right, we'll be ok next year.

Maliq and Judah are better than any two guys on this team right now. That is what I take away from last year.

So I have this right (not directed at you RF2044) , just based on this thread, for us to be better next year:

Red gets better at coaching by an order of magnitude
Donnie and Choppa come back (this is a huge assumption)
Our new front office hits on at least 2-3 high level portal guys with no misses (to be clear, I think colleges should be set up to have a POBO/GM).
Our frosh can all play

I think that is a lot to hope for with a brand new front office, expecting Red to be a much better coach and then also hoping Donnie and Choppa stick around.

All of this is unlikely to happen together, with the most likely not happening is Red growing enough as a coach.

But, again, if we're just talking making the NCAAT, maybe we can get there.

great post about “red’s third year” and the challenges that must be overcome

 

[Cusefan0307]

If not for Kiyan and Melo i agree Red would need to be replaced. But he is a very good recruiter and players win games. JJ being out is a massive blow. He completely missed on Dry Rub and Carlos that's on him but with the GM and others looking in Red isn't going to be making these decisions in a vacuum. Spend money on keeping Choppa and Donnie. Add a good PG and Center, bring back JJ and see what happens. If it works great if not he's gone.

JJ wouldn’t have even been in the rotation on some of our best teams in the 2010’s.

 

[SP_Gilbs]

My biggest worry is that Red gets next year and the influx of cash from Melo allows us to get some hired guns and squeak into the tourney on talent alone and thats enough to give Red a couple more years. People keep talking about how important Melo and his money are and while I agree with this, the money in the hands of a poor coach is probably more damaging than good. Im guessing once Kiyan leaves the support isnt going to be nearly as strong from Melo and fear we'd be in the same exact spot as we are now, but 4-5 more years down the line from now where our brand is basically nothing at that point. We'd be going on close to 15 years of irrelevance if this plays out another few years.

 

[hoopsupstate]

My biggest worry is that Red gets next year and the influx of cash from Melo allows us to get some hired guns and squeak into the tourney on talent alone and thats enough to give Red a couple more years. People keep talking about how important Melo and his money are and while I agree with this, the money in the hands of a poor coach is probably more damaging than good. Im guessing once Kiyan leaves the support isnt going to be nearly as strong from Melo and fear we'd be in the same exact spot as we are now, but 4-5 more years down the line from now where our brand is basically nothing at that point. We'd be going on close to 15 years of irrelevance if this plays out another few years.

Why would getting into the tourney a bad thing?

 

[phil77]

Why would getting into the tourney a bad thing?

It's the same reason why Dino squeaking into a bowl game every year was a bad thing. It is just delaying the inevitable.

 

[SP_Gilbs]

Why would getting into the tourney a bad thing?

If we get in simply because Melo drops a ton of money on some high-level transfers and not an improvement in Reds coaching, then im not sure that helps us in the long term. If Melo is in fact helping out big time with NIL I dont see it lasting much longer than Kiyans tenure here. Then we end up in the same spot were in now just further down the line. Maybe Red makes big improvements in his in-game coaching and this all looks like a stupid take on my part. Would love that to be the case but I think the concern here is valid based on what weve seen so far.

 

[Red2003]

Yes, it is bonkers with the exception that most important SU player in modern history has his son coming to Syracuse. You know the one with his name on the building. That famous guy and his famous family. Probably don't want to alienate him.

I'm with you and you keep saying it but people aren't listening. No one is saying Kiyan is Carmelo, he won't even be close, I could care less if Kiyan sits the bench. There's 250 Million dollars in that family and the next coach is going to need some of that every year for the next 20 years.

Kiyan is worth 40 million on his own, we don't even need to pay him NIL (please go look at the business ventures he's into and his social media $'s). LaLa and Carmelo set Kiyan up on that path long before they had any idea if he could play D1. Hell he's one of these recruits that can pay for the rest of the team's NIL if he wants and maybe he will..

No one wants Autry to stay at this point but there's a way to do this without punishing a family that has given alot to Syracuse over the years. They aren't responsible for the last 10 years but they could help with the turnaround.

 

[Red2003]

It's the same reason why Dino squeaking into a bowl game every year was a bad thing. It is just delaying the inevitable.

Yea you nailed it. Autry doesn't need just a Tourney appearance. He needs top 20 ranking, Top 4 seedings in tourney, Top of ACC and ACCT. Even then I doubt we would trust that unless it was sustained for several years.

Looking at the bubble from afar and sneaking on won't cut it.

 

[baggerbob]

I'm with you and you keep saying it but people aren't listening. No one is saying Kiyan is Carmelo, he won't even be close, I could care less if Kiyan sits the bench. There's 250 Million dollars in that family and the next coach is going to need some of that every year for the next 20 years.

Kiyan is worth 40 million on his own, we don't even need to pay him NIL (please go look at the business ventures he's into and his social media $'s). LaLa and Carmelo set Kiyan up on that path long before they had any idea if he could play D1. Hell he's one of these recruits that can pay for the rest of the team's NIL if he wants and maybe he will..

No one wants Autry to stay at this point but there's a way to do this without punishing a family that has given alot to Syracuse over the years. They aren't responsible for the last 10 years but they could help with the turnaround.

Look letting Red stay would be the worst thing for Kiyan's development.
In 2 years Red has shown no ability to run an effective offense or defense. You basically last year had Judah and Q drive and shoot or pass on offense and Brown getting steals on defense.
This year you had JJ for a few games and now a big mess.

 

[RF2044]

This is exactly what the takeaway should be. Instead, as has been the case, people are thinking that as long as like seventeen things go right, we'll be ok next year.

Maliq and Judah are better than any two guys on this team right now. That is what I take away from last year.

So I have this right (not directed at you RF2044) , just based on this thread, for us to be better next year:

Red gets better at coaching by an order of magnitude
Donnie and Choppa come back (this is a huge assumption)
Our new front office hits on at least 2-3 high level portal guys with no misses (to be clear, I think colleges should be set up to have a POBO/GM).
Our frosh can all play

I think that is a lot to hope for with a brand new front office, expecting Red to be a much better coach and then also hoping Donnie and Choppa stick around.

All of this is unlikely to happen together, with the most likely not happening is Red growing enough as a coach.

But, again, if we're just talking making the NCAAT, maybe we can get there.

I think it is mostly rationalization at this point. Last year, there were lots of red flags -- but he "inherited" a roster with some players who were insubordinate, so the hope was that "...once he gets some of his own players on the squad," things would improve.

This year, there is no discernible offensive system. Our defense is similarly grotesque. We aren't recruiting all that well, and outside of Davis, the portal additions look like poor fits.

So the rationalization this off-season is that Red needs another year, because the players suck, or because Anthony is going to magically change our NIL limitations.

And I hope that last part is true. But the product on the court has demonstrated that this staff is out of their depth, and a third year could be even worse than the second year. ESPECIALLY if there is significant roster turnover, which almost certainly will be the case.

And let's be honest -- it isn't like the team is playing hard and executing well, but just lacks the horsepower to beat some good teams. If that was the case, and we saw signs that Red and this staff had good systems on both sides of the ball, I think the frustration level would be significantly lessened. Because then it WOULD be a situation where we might just need to give him time to get the right recruits / fits into the program.

But as a program, right now we seem rudderless. We are adrift, with an incompetent crew navigating. It is highly doubtful that this staff can turn things around, mainly because the HC seems to be a destitute man's version of the man he replaced, with no fresh ideas / new approaches.

 

[Red2003]

Look letting Red stay would be the worst thing for Kiyan's development.
In 2 years Red has shown no ability to run an effective offense or defense. You basically last year had Judah and Q drive and shoot or pass on offense and Brown getting steals on defense.
This year you had JJ for a few games and now a big mess.

I agree with you on Autry. What's the answer though? Are you thinking we just tell Kiyan that we're so messed up on the Hill right now that we tell him and Melo it's best if he just go somewhere else and play for another coach while we clean house at the end of the year? Not exactly a great message either, but maybe it comes to that.