Diehards Giving Up

[Zelda Zonk]

If I start a thread to dramatically announce I just turned off a game at the under 12 minute timeout to go roast chestnuts and watch a Hallmark movie, can I ever again call myself a true fan?

You can.

To restore your status, you must buy an SUV for a player—transfer or recruit, your choice. You get Superfan status, a fleece, and a sticker for your fridge.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Saw a tweet for the first brakcetology just now and it made my stomach turn a little. Also am totally clueless what's going on in the rest of the CBB world simply don't care and am just angry things have come to this.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Kiyan by himself won't be the program's savior, but Melo is a Diehard and indicated he'll be engaged based on his desire to rebuild 'Cuse hoops to once again be a top program.
Melo obviously didn't support Kiyan signing to experience what we're seeing.
Would love to know Melo's thoughts as he watches this season unfold!
Would take a heavy finger on the Trust Button for Melo to expect this path will lead to a great college experience for his son that also accomplishes his goal of SU once again being a top program.
Melo is the Diehard that I hope to hear from.

That's asking a lot of a former player.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

That's kind of where I'm at.

If there were signs of quality play on both ends, I think the outcomes would be more tolerable. Say, for example, we didn't have optimal talent, but we were coached well and played hard, I think that the fanbase would be more tolerant of losses. Because then one of the question marks about Red wouldn't be an issue, and it would be easier to "accept" that we just need more time for him to recruit the right players for his system.

Problem is, the Ken Pom data confirms what we're all seeing -- that the "systems" that we have on both sides of the ball are subpar. This isn't a situation where the staff is showing that they have the chops and we just lack the horses -- the staff is showing that whatever "IT" is, they don't have it.

I wasn't expecting anything this year. We were 19-12 last year and not even on the Bubble. This year's team has way less talent. I never bought into the less talent but better team mantra that was parroted before the season.

This year should have always been about the future. Play a bunch of young guys and see what happens. Best case, maybe you get lucky and sneak into the NCAAs. Worst case you are better for next season.

Carlos shouldn't be leading the team in MPG. Bringing in Lampkin was a mistake, even more with him only being able to play 25 mins a game. Freeman and Moore should be getting 35 mins each. At least seeing those two play gives us something to look forward to.

I also think we need to have a Dinoesque changing of the Assts. We have two guys who bring nothing to the table. If you are going to keep Red, you need to have sacrificial lambs. Coming back with the same staff is a slap in the face.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I don't think immediate turnaround is the expectation... But immediate evidence of change should be expected.

Evidence of effort (especially on D)

Evidence of offense play scheming and identity (what are we trying to run even if we're not good at it?)

Evidence of basic roster management (like making sure your best players see the most floor time)

If we we're getting some tangible evidence of above, then I'd have more patience.

As it stands, with no positive evidence, it looks like deer-in-the-headlights and standing in shock and awe as Rome burns.

Red is not the guy.

...and it's actually good we're learning that now rather than later.

Let's be honest. Turning around basketball is not like turning around football.

We have been through enough football rebuilds in the last 25 years to know that when you have an 85 man roster, you have to replace about 40 players.

It used to be that it took you a couple years just to get rid of the guys who aren't good enough, and then 2-3 more years for your recruits to mature. but now with the portal it's more like 2 or 3 years to rebuild a roster, depending on your resources.

With a basketball team, you need half a dozen guys, not 50. With basically "free agency" upon us, it shouldn't take more than 2-3 years for a turnaround.

Red did a pretty good job managing a roster full of head cases last year, but this year, he is not getting through at all. Right now, we are a dead man walking.

Red's got a month to start getting wins, or he's getting fired.

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

Agree and the FF's were matchup problems for teams not facing a zone.

So we suck now. And even in our most recent good years (backhanded swipe at JB) the success "masked" real coaching issus? Puleezz

 

[IthacaMatt]

Reposting your comment because it didn't get enough attention. This is the main issue.

IF Red isn't the guy, hanging him around for a year or three of Kiyan is just going to make things worse for the program.

Red's got 30 days. We have 9 conference games before our West Coast trip to face Stanford and Cal on January 29 / 31.

Those games are Bucknell, @Fla State, GaTech, @BC, Louisville, ND, Clemson, Pitt.

We are favored in 4 of those 9 games. If we play "chalk", we will be 9-11 going into our West Coast road trip, and we will be an underdog against 9-3 Stanford, and competitive with 7-5 Cal.

We will still have the hardest games left, against Duke, UNC, UVa, and NC State.

If the wheels fall off completely, this team could legitimately lose 20 games, or close to it. Let's say JJ is back in mid-January, as I have predicted. Is this team going on a tear? Seriously.

When we hit the end of January, if we still have a losing record, he has to be replaced.

 

[tbonezone]

gonna need 1.21 jigawatts of new energy to jumpstart this diehard

 

[chuck]

This season will test my fanhood.
Going to Bucknell, cheap tix made it easier to take my kids for their experience.
After that the league season maybe difficult to stomach. Will be watching the rest of the way as an evaluation of Autry. Gonna be referendum on his future.

Bucknell could very well win tmrw. Watch.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Bucknell could very well win tmrw. Watch.

 

[Red Holzman]

That's asking a lot of a former player.

Yes -don't expect Melo to say "Fire Red".
Where Melo stands is a factor weighing way heavier than the avg. diehard's $.
Therefore, worth trying to read the tea leaves-
If Melo says nothing at all (ie: I believe in Red, etc) that may say a lot regarding his perspective IMO.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Yes -don't expect Melo to say "Fire Red".
Where Melo stands is a factor weighing way heavier than the avg. diehard's $.
Therefore, worth trying to read the tea leaves-
If Melo says nothing at all (ie: I believe in Red, etc) that may say a lot regarding his perspective IMO.

So he's out GM and owner responsible for payroll and management decisions?

Some people are being delusional...

 

[Red Holzman]

So he's out GM and owner responsible for payroll and management decisions?

Some people are being delusional...

You're correct-
and that's not what I said.
Is it delusional to think that Melo's perspective would be considered by the "responsible GM and owner"?
He's a pretty significant stakeholder.

 

[OrangeCrush22]

So he's out GM and owner responsible for payroll and management decisions?

Some people are being delusional...

Letting a former player make decisions on the program is insane.

 

[orlandoorange]

My first game was at Manley. I loved Roy's runts as a kid and feared the worst when he left to be AD at Tulane.

I quickly adjusted to JB. I remember an article in SI about him about the time Louie and Bouie were dominating. I thought the BE was a terrible idea.

I gave up on the program before JB hung it up, probably in the late teens. I think leaving the BE was the beginning of the end for me, add bad performance onto that and I just don't care.

Someone asked somewhere on here, when we tought being in 6th in the BE would be acceptable ? We never did. If SU wasn't in the championship game at the BET it was a bad weekend. It was normal to watch them in the NCAA on St. Patrick's day. If we weren't a 4 seed or better it was a bad year.

There's no reason this program can't still be top 15, top 10 consistently. It doesn't take multiple years to build that.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Letting a former player make decisions on the program is insane.

Things can't get any worse so I don't mind giving him some input. If we're coach shopping and he has a connection to someone we offer and helps close the deal great.

But people expecting him to bankroll us to a final four are insane. If things don't go well for Kiyan it'll probably be a Lampkin/Coleman situation with whomever plays ahead of him.

As long as it doesn't mean more Red I'm fine treating the Kiyan era a little differently.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

This comment usually gets ripped apart.

I’m in no way saying Autry is acceptable but next year I’m going to be interested in watching these new guys early on and there will be some buzz.

Kiyan and Sadiq coming here even though they know the team is in the toilet says something and what if Donnie and Choppa decide to come back.

Cutting off the dead weight on this team end of this year should be easy and frees up a lot of space. Open the checkbook and pay for the best 5 and 1 in the portal and stop looking for mid major value.

A lot of Ifs but I think people will watch early on even if they don’t like the coach.

And rightly so. There is a huge difference between "rebuilding" a program just off the bubble vs. the total collapse that is looking more and more likely for this year... especially when the coaching and player development is shown to be so abysmal. I don't think these recruits will create much of a buzz if the program is coming off a single-digit win season; it's not like we are talking a Fab-5 level class here. The fanbase wants wins, not just a name on a jersey to support.

As I noted elsewhere when someone said that Carmelo likes Red: he's not going to choose Red over his son's developmental needs. Let's assume for a moment that the incoming class DOES make it to campus with Red as HC next year; does anyone really think at this point that he will have any clue how to manage them? Imagine the mess if Red is retained after a terrible 244-25 season, the recruits are somehow enticed to come anyway for 25-26, and it ends up being another trainwreck because there is no actual coaching. The level of damage to the program in that scenario would be universes worse than just cutting Red loose after this season.

I thought it was laughable when some posters implied that Judah, Q, etc. going rogue is what actually led to 20 wins. Now I'm not so sure.

 

[Newhouser]

So Melo is providing influence? Cash? Connections?
I mean I know he's earned a ton of cash but how deep are his pockets?

 

[kingtidge]

So Melo is providing influence? Cash? Connections?
I mean I know he's earned a ton of cash but how deep are his pockets?

Wait till he brings Snoop in...

Syracuse Snoop Doggs.

You heard it hear first.

 

[Scooch]

So Melo is providing influence? Cash? Connections?
I mean I know he's earned a ton of cash but how deep are his pockets?

No one will say. It’s super duper secret, apparently. The masses couldn’t understand.

 

[Teddy19]

After reading through the threads my greatest concern is that even the diehards are giving up hope. You expect the casual fan to only be interested when the team is winning, but when life long fans have lost interest in even watching the team we are in trouble.
I know fans come back quickly when winning starts but it seems we are at an all time low.

The only reason I still have Hulu is to watch Syracuse basketball, and to be honest, I think I’m going to save my money this year. It sucks but it’s just not fun to watch right now.

 

[CuseCPT]

After reading through the threads my greatest concern is that even the diehards are giving up hope. You expect the casual fan to only be interested when the team is winning, but when life long fans have lost interest in even watching the team we are in trouble.
I know fans come back quickly when winning starts but it seems we are at an all time low.

A lot of the casual fans don't realize yet how bad we are. Just wait until the conference schedule gets rolling.

 

[GHLF]

Let's be honest. Turning around basketball is not like turning around football.

We have been through enough football rebuilds in the last 25 years to know that when you have an 85 man roster, you have to replace about 40 players.

It used to be that it took you a couple years just to get rid of the guys who aren't good enough, and then 2-3 more years for your recruits to mature. but now with the portal it's more like 2 or 3 years to rebuild a roster, depending on your resources.

With a basketball team, you need half a dozen guys, not 50. With basically "free agency" upon us, it shouldn't take more than 2-3 years for a turnaround.

Red did a pretty good job managing a roster full of head cases last year, but this year, he is not getting through at all. Right now, we are a dead man walking.

Red's got a month to start getting wins, or he's getting fired.

No matter what record I do not think he is going anywhere, this year. Also, prior to Tenn, we lost 5 games by 5 pts or less, it certainly was a talent issue, and then we lost JJ. He will reload. We shall see

 

[hungrychuck]

The idea of die hards is that they die. But only hard.

That’s what’s has happened here.

The term does not suggest immortality.

 

[CuseCPT]

I wouldn't say the last decade, eg., Maybe the year Covid hit a lot of people experienced bad times when that occurred.

2012-2013	30​	10​	.750​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Final Four
2013-2014	28​	6​	.824​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Round of 32
2014-2015	18​	13​	.581​	Jim Boeheim	Banned from Post Season Activity
2015-2016	23​	14​	.622​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Final Four
2016-2017	19​	15​	.559​	Jim Boeheim	NIT 2nd Round
2017-2018	23​	14​	.622​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2018-2019	20​	14​	.588​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA First Round

I wouldn't say the last decade either looking at your chart, but the problem is that chart is not the last decade. 10 years ago was Dec 2014 so the actual last decade would start with the 2014-2015 team. And the last decade did not include 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 teams.

Is that you, Coach Boeheim?