Diehards Giving Up | Page 6 | Syracusefan.com

Diehards Giving Up

I'm with you and you keep saying it but people aren't listening. No one is saying Kiyan is Carmelo, he won't even be close, I could care less if Kiyan sits the bench. There's 250 Million dollars in that family and the next coach is going to need some of that every year for the next 20 years.

Kiyan is worth 40 million on his own, we don't even need to pay him NIL (please go look at the business ventures he's into and his social media $'s). LaLa and Carmelo set Kiyan up on that path long before they had any idea if he could play D1. Hell he's one of these recruits that can pay for the rest of the team's NIL if he wants and maybe he will..

No one wants Autry to stay at this point but there's a way to do this without punishing a family that has given alot to Syracuse over the years. They aren't responsible for the last 10 years but they could help with the turnaround.
The Anthony family seems all in on the "turnaround" aspect of Kiyan coming to Cuse. Same with Sadiq and Freeman. If I throw my cynicism out the window for a minute there is a lot to look forward to. However, we need to see at least some good coaching this season to believe that, and it hasn't happened so far.
 
If I start a thread to dramatically announce I just turned off a game at the under 12 minute timeout to go roast chestnuts and watch a Hallmark movie, can I ever again call myself a true fan?
You must have not read my comment when I started the thread. My fandom has not died or stopped. I’ve been following Cuse for over 30 years. My comment and the basis of the thread was that diehard fans on this board are becoming despondent (giving up). When you stop planning around games, turn the tv off mid game, miss games because of mental health that is giving up on this team. It does not mean you are no longer a Cuse fan and switching teams. We are life long fans.
The post was to point out that it is concern that even diehard fans not just casual fans are losing interest in the basketball team.
 
The Anthony family seems all in on the "turnaround" aspect of Kiyan coming to Cuse. Same with Sadiq and Freeman. If I throw my cynicism out the window for a minute there is a lot to look forward to. However, we need to see at least some good coaching this season to believe that, and it hasn't happened so far.
I think the turnaround they envisioned was from 20-12 to tourney team. None of these recruits are good enough to overcome the coaching we have seen thus far. Heck, some of them may even ride the pine when we need them most a la Freeman.
 
He is diehard college hoops fan who's tortured by his team's terrible performances and is looking for change.

She is a local entrepreneur with a leaf-raking and mulching business on the brink of collapse.

Together, they rake their ways into each other's hearts...

Love in the Leaves - tonight at 8PM on Hallmark.
Damn it, that's the same time as the Holiday Bowl. I hate having to decide!
 
You must have not read my comment when I started the thread. My fandom has not died or stopped. I’ve been following Cuse for over 30 years. My comment and the basis of the thread was that diehard fans on this board are becoming despondent (giving up). When you stop planning around games, turn the tv off mid game, miss games because of mental health that is giving up on this team. It does not mean you are no longer a Cuse fan and switching teams. We are life long fans.
The post was to point out that it is concern that even diehard fans not just casual fans are losing interest in the basketball team.
So you're saying one's fandom may wane and intensify across the years, often correlating with your team's level of success? If so, I agree. And I'll add that various life circumstances factor in as well. I believe it's always been so.

I do feel for the relatively younger fans who will likely never experience the sustained level of basketball excellence many of us witnessed. We were a fortunate fan base.
 
Not sure you say that when a lot of these fans have been committed to the program for decades. It’s not that they are switching their loyalty to another team, it is just a lack of interest is starting to set in.

When you're a fan, you don't have to win every game, but you like to see your team be competitive, and win its fair share. We are a long way from that right now.
Without your team being competitive, at some basic level, it's just not fun. It's masochism.
 
Boeheim developed into a better game coach as he aged and won with a heck of a lot of talent in the beginning of his career. Unfortunately in this day and age it'll be tough for Red to develop as a coach if he doesn't have a team loaded with talent.

I'm still rooting for him to develop and would love to see him succeed.
 
When you're a fan, you don't have to win every game, but you like to see your team be competitive, and win its fair share. We are a long way from that right now.
Without your team being competitive, at some basic level, it's just not fun. It's masochism.
Agree. I think what most fans want is a competitive team. We want to win but if not be competitive.
 
Boeheim developed into a better game coach as he aged and won with a heck of a lot of talent in the beginning of his career. Unfortunately in this day and age it'll be tough for Red to develop as a coach if he doesn't have a team loaded with talent.

I'm still rooting for him to develop and would love to see him succeed.

One of the things I kept posting here last year was the need for patience. Red had no head coaching experience, there were bound to be some mistakes, some in-game decisions that he made that might not be optimal -- but that's part of the learning experience. You have to have room to make mistakes and figure things out. It was unreasonable to expect that he'd be a perfect X's and O's coach right out of the gate. And as a former PG, I was hoping that Red would have a different understanding of how to manage the game than most, and that this would inform his coaching philosophy.

Heck, JB rounded into form [as you point out] as a brilliant game manager, and over the past 8 years we still got blown out a lot and things got predictable with our systems on both sides of the ball.

The concern I now have is that there isn't that underlying foundation of seeing the game like a coach. That there are no X's and O's, beyond what he learned from Boeheim. Which is discouraging [and also what we saw from Hopkins at Washington].
 
This is a respectful dialog. My only disagreement - which goes against what I normally profess - is that the results ignore the mediocre season that got us into the NCAAT over the last 10-12 years. We were Cinderella, not a two loss powerhouse.
12 losses - maybe even 10 losses in a weakend ACC plus blowouts OOC - won’t cut it.
 
I played around with Red’s statistics vs Boeheim’s last 4 years in chat GPT and ran some statistical analysis. (W, L, margin of victory of wins and losses). Just straight W’s and L’s. No SOS or opponent strength considered. Real rudimentary stuff. Overall, even with the 20 win season, the difference between Red and late-stage JB is not statistically significant. At this point in time, Red is slightly worse than late-state JB. Notably, the data showed JB’s teams competed harder (bigger margin of victory, lesser margin of defeat.) Red’s sole improvement is that the margin of loss this year is a slight improvement over last year’s margin of loss, but not at late-stage JB level. Reds margin of loss, however, is right on the border of being statistically significant compared to late stage JB.

But the data supports the following conclusions based on the last 5.5 years: 1) we are so far from being a final four contender based on wins, losses, and margins; 2) we are in the process of a slow rebuild that will take several years to make us a final four competitor; and 3) red’s performance so far does not show the marks of a program on an upward trajectory. We continue to be stuck on a stagnated plateau.

The real question, which hasn’t been addressed by ADJW, is the expectation a quick turn around with a hockey stick like trajectory; or are we expecting Red to rebuild this program brick by brick, year by year with slight improvements and each year building on the previous one. The expectations will definitely frame how one views the job that Red is doing. I imagine folks who want an immediate turnaround (myself included) are in the first camp and are feeling quite frustrated with the continued status quo, while the slow builders are probably in the give red more time camp.
 
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I played around with Red’s statistics vs Boeheim’s last 4 years in chat GPT and ran some statistical analysis. (W, L, margin of victory of wins and losses). Just straight W’s and L’s. No SOS or opponent strength considered. Real rudimentary stuff. Overall, even with the 20 win season, the difference between Red and late-stage JB is not statistically significant. At this point in time, Red is slightly worse than late-state JB. Notably, the data showed JB’s teams competed harder (bigger margin of victory, lesser margin of defeat.) Red’s sole improvement is that the margin of loss this year is a slight improvement over last year’s margin of loss, but not at late-stage JB level. Reds margin of loss, however, is right on the border of being statistically significant compared to late stage JB.

But the data supports the following conclusions based on the last 5.5 years: 1) we are so far from being a final four contender based on wins, losses, and margins; 2) we are in the process of a slow rebuild that will take several years to make us a final four competitor; and 3) red’s performance so far does not show the marks of a program on an upward trajectory. We continue to be stuck on a stagnated plateau.

The real question, which hasn’t been addressed by ADJW, is the expectation a quick turn around with a hockey stick like trajectory; or are we expecting Red to rebuild this program brick by brick, year by year with slight improvements and each year building on the previous one. The expectations will definitely frame how one views the job that Red is doing. I imagine folks who want an immediate turnaround (myself included) are in the first camp and are feeling quite frustrated with the continued status quo, while the slow builders are probably in the give red more time camp.

I don't think immediate turnaround is the expectation... But immediate evidence of change should be expected.

Evidence of effort (especially on D)

Evidence of offense play scheming and identity (what are we trying to run even if we're not good at it?)

Evidence of basic roster management (like making sure your best players see the most floor time)

If we we're getting some tangible evidence of above, then I'd have more patience.

As it stands, with no positive evidence, it looks like deer-in-the-headlights and standing in shock and awe as Rome burns.

Red is not the guy.

...and it's actually good we're learning that now rather than later.
 
I just can’t help but make comparisons to football. If anyone needs a pick me up today just look at the complete derailment at Pitt and Narduzzi this year and the news about their guys hitting the portal. I was at that game that Thursday night when we got crushed. Narduzzi was walking on water in that town and now today they want nothing to do with him.

We’ve seen similar things happen all over. Same thing with Keates last year closing the season 4-10 before their run.

Point being there seems to be very few coaches that really know how to manage NIL, the portal, HS recruits, and also coach. Some are just buying their way and others are getting lucky. Most can do just 1 thing.

At least we know already what we have with Autry.
 
My coping is as follows:
  • Watch until it's unwatchable and turn TV to something else (which occurs with regularity now and I make the call usually at start of the 2nd half.)
  • Gird ye loins. I don't clap or cheer and I don't get mad or bitch. I approach each game a little dead inside and do not get worked up one way or the other. I can't invest my emotions in this product currently. It gives so little back and is a bad mental transaction to do so.
My hope is that the above is temporary and that we eventually walk back out of the lost wilderness with the right coaching hire, but hopelessness does creep in.
Ditto.
 
The Anthony family seems all in on the "turnaround" aspect of Kiyan coming to Cuse. Same with Sadiq and Freeman. If I throw my cynicism out the window for a minute there is a lot to look forward to. However, we need to see at least some good coaching this season to believe that, and it hasn't happened so far.
This comment usually gets ripped apart.

I’m in no way saying Autry is acceptable but next year I’m going to be interested in watching these new guys early on and there will be some buzz.

Kiyan and Sadiq coming here even though they know the team is in the toilet says something and what if Donnie and Choppa decide to come back.

Cutting off the dead weight on this team end of this year should be easy and frees up a lot of space. Open the checkbook and pay for the best 5 and 1 in the portal and stop looking for mid major value.

A lot of Ifs but I think people will watch early on even if they don’t like the coach.
 
Cutting off the dead weight on this team end of this year should be easy and frees up a lot of space. Open the checkbook and pay for the best 5 and 1 in the portal and stop looking for mid major value.

A lot of Ifs but I think people will watch early on even if they don’t like the coach.

What if we're single digits wins trainwreck this season and everyone portals?

I wouldn't count the chickens at this point.
 
What if we're single digits wins trainwreck this season and everyone portals?

I wouldn't count the chickens at this point.
That’s why I said a lot of Ifs. Maybe we should ask Kiyan and Sadiq and the young guys if it makes a difference if Autry is 15-15 or 9-21. One is crap and the other is more crap.
 
That’s why I said a lot of Ifs. Maybe we should ask Kiyan and Sadiq and the young guys if it makes a difference if Autry is 15-15 or 9-21. One is crap and the other is more crap.

It's a tricky situation for sure. I hope Wildhack has a few contingency plans.
 
This is probably not the right thread for this, but I've been mostly lurking and reading about the NIL/portal stuff and how it's harder now or whatever, but like, this is still a zero sum game. Every game is going to have a winner and a loser, 68 teams are making the tournament, 4 teams are making the final 4. Some teams will still be winning these games! It could be us. But it's ot.

And I'm sure the NIL budget isn't where we want it to be, but is it more than Le Moyne? Or Colgate? Or Youngstown state? Because we're barely beating them, at home!

We're 108 at Ken Pom. Like I can't believe anyone would consider this in the vicinity of acceptable or understandable or whatever.
 
The turnaround quandary - there is no brick by brick, year by year.
You get one year, and have figure it out now.

And Red appeared he did not have the teams respect nor control last year (not to recap above 4x), and now look at us - this is more exciting and watchable than the real games.

(Cue Lampkin clapping / taunting and getting shot over)
 
This comment usually gets ripped apart.

I’m in no way saying Autry is acceptable but next year I’m going to be interested in watching these new guys early on and there will be some buzz.

Kiyan and Sadiq coming here even though they know the team is in the toilet says something and what if Donnie and Choppa decide to come back.

Cutting off the dead weight on this team end of this year should be easy and frees up a lot of space. Open the checkbook and pay for the best 5 and 1 in the portal and stop looking for mid major value.

A lot of Ifs but I think people will watch early on even if they don’t like the coach.
Unless there is a tremendous turnaround from Bell the rest of the year, he should not be back. Or if he is he should be told he is coming off the bench.
 
This is probably not the right thread for this, but I've been mostly lurking and reading about the NIL/portal stuff and how it's harder now or whatever, but like, this is still a zero sum game. Every game is going to have a winner and a loser, 68 teams are making the tournament, 4 teams are making the final 4. Some teams will still be winning these games! It could be us. But it's ot.

And I'm sure the NIL budget isn't where we want it to be, but is it more than Le Moyne? Or Colgate? Or Youngstown state? Because we're barely beating them, at home!

We're 108 at Ken Pom. Like I can't believe anyone would consider this in the vicinity of acceptable or understandable or whatever.

That's kind of where I'm at.

If there were signs of quality play on both ends, I think the outcomes would be more tolerable. Say, for example, we didn't have optimal talent, but we were coached well and played hard, I think that the fanbase would be more tolerant of losses. Because then one of the question marks about Red wouldn't be an issue, and it would be easier to "accept" that we just need more time for him to recruit the right players for his system.

Problem is, the Ken Pom data confirms what we're all seeing -- that the "systems" that we have on both sides of the ball are subpar. This isn't a situation where the staff is showing that they have the chops and we just lack the horses -- the staff is showing that whatever "IT" is, they don't have it.
 
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That's kind of where I'm at.

If there were signs of quality play on both ends, I think the outcomes would be more tolerable. Say, for example, we didn't have optimal talent, but we were coached well and played hard, I think that the fanbase would be more tolerant of losses.

Problem is, the Ken Pom data shows what we're all seeing -- that the "systems" that we have on both sides of the ball are subpar. This isn't a situation where the staff is showing that they have the chops and we just lack the horses -- the staff is showing that whatever "IT" is, they don't have it.


Yup this is why most of us are saying the 3rd year is just a waste of time and has a chance to spiral into a Dino situation.
 
I dont agree with your take.
You’re arguing about someone who has a career Player Efficiency Rating of 12.8. Triche and Scoop never were below 16 in any season. Either one of those guys would be far and away the best player on this team. Same with 09 and 10 Rautins. I didn’t even bring up the two NBA guys on those rosters.
 

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