Don't freakout and this isn't hate speech | Page 5 | Syracusefan.com

Don't freakout and this isn't hate speech

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Where did I ever say "we should stink"?

Jesus

Now you're going the other way with this and over-defending your point. I was generalizing and being hyperbolic. As if the *********** didn't give that away.

We will see what happens. I think there are a lot of reasons to be optimstic, and while there are some unknowns I think the positive unknowns outweigh the negatives.
 
Your reaction and that of the guy that liked your post are exactly the same as when I was pointing out in 2013 and early 2014 that MacDonald was awful, which he was, and which you people were in denial about and took offense to that being pointed out.

It worries me that all the hand waiving about this, that, and the other that you guys are doing is the same bluster used to dismiss concerns about the job MacDonald was doing. You guys certainty had that right. Let's hope past performance isn't indicative of future performance in regards to your ability to assess what's happening with the program.

"You people."

Goofy response. I was quite pragmatic about the job McDonald was doing. Fact--when he was hired, I talked about how it was a huge risk hiring a career position coach to be an OC, despite his brief stint at WMU. I thought it was a worthwhile risk due to his supposed recruiting prowess, given what lousy shape your hero Marrone left our roster in in terms of offensive playmakers.

I was terrified of the job McDonald was doing in early 2013--another mischaracterization on your part--but things seemed to settle down and the ship seemed righted in 2013 and we won almost all of our 50/50 games. I expected things to get better last year, and they didn't. I was happy when he was replaced, especially after that dopey "McFu**kit" article. The guy had clearly lost it.

My only "defense" of McDonald last year was to suggest that he wasn't stupid. He is a very eloquent speaker, and a sharp guy. Anybody who's met him could tell you the same thing. He just happened to be a lousy football coach. There's a difference between being stupid and being bad at your job.

I find it humorous that you point fingers, when you're the hypocrite that defended Marrone against any and all perceived criticism, while being so vocally negative about Shafer ever since he replaced your hero. How many times did I post this offseason that Shafer's job would be tied to how his next selection at OC--Lester--performed? Well, the early returns look promising--especially when you don't overlook the context of the numbers, and project how they might look if Dungey had played more than half of the sixteen quarters of football we've played.

My initial post in this thread was highly respectful to yours. It's not my fault that you defensively overreact when people express a different viewpoint than yours.
 
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this year, teams with 120 or more penalty yards have 11 wins, 9 losses. 55%

teams with 36 or less like us that day are 65 and 58. 53%

that is odd

Now that's a fun stat. I wonder how that would trend out as the season goes on. Early season you get more mistakes, and you also have more games that are mismatches, so you can overcome it and still beat terrible teams.
 
on offense maybe. i think this idea of "hey we try to kill the qb and sometimes that means young DBs get beat" shows a level headed lack of panic. i just happen to think that panic is actually the right response here.
The one person who is just starting to play more, and might not be getting sacks, but takes up a lot of space is John Raymon. That broken play that LSU had, watching the replay, the Center did a nice WWE takedown on John. That probably led to some of the later calls of holding.
 
scoreboard is the only thing that matters.

I made a post a couple of weeks back about the lack of yards and sustained drives and it was largely scoffed at. I do think over the long haul you can’t count on the big explosive plays, but that’s what a lot of coaches seem to measure things around these days. Defensively you want to limit them offensively you want them.

If we continue to have big explosive plays then so be it. As long we we’re getting into the end zone and scoring points that’s all that matters. Yards are down, scoring is up.

2015 = 32.75 ppg

2014 = 25.5 ppg
I think 2014 was 17.1 ppg.
 
So much for that.

I'll say again what I said when Hunt was hurt, it's a free year, the record doesn't matter this year.

If Shafer had gotten six wins with this team he would have deserved an extension.

But I hope all the illusions about what this team is THIS YEAR are gone.

It's a work in progress, that's it.
 
GoSU96 said:
So much for that. I'll say again what I said when Hunt was hurt, it's a free year, the record doesn't matter this year. If Shafer had gotten six wins with this team he would have deserved an extension. But I hope all the illusions about what this team is THIS YEAR are gone. It's a work in progress, that's it.

I think there's a lot of truth here.

But when people can see that Dungey is better than Hunt, it doesn't carry as much weight.
 
GoSU96 said:
So much for that. I'll say again what I said when Hunt was hurt, it's a free year, the record doesn't matter this year. If Shafer had gotten six wins with this team he would have deserved an extension. But I hope all the illusions about what this team is THIS YEAR are gone. It's a work in progress, that's it.

It always was. Youth = inconsistent.

But when you're 3-0 or 3-1 - it's good to hope man.

I'm still really impressed with Dungey and the other young guys. Defense played better this week than last (I know that's not saying a ton).
 
Since Cusian is so big into resurrecting posts, here's something of more recent vintage.

Going into this week SU is now ranked 111 in total offense, 69th in total defense, combined value of 180. From 2009 through 2014, 105 teams finished with a combined value of 180 or more.

Auburn won 8 games in 2011, Wyoming, Marshall, BC (2013), Maryland (2014) won 7, 4 teams won 6. All the rest, 96 teams won 5 or less. Average win total for those 105 teams, 3 wins.

And they are just now getting into the hard part of the schedule.
 
GoSU96 said:
Since Cusian is so big into resurrecting posts, here's something of more recent vintage. Going into this week SU is now ranked 111 in total offense, 69th in total defense, combined value of 180. From 2009 through 2014, 105 teams finished with a combined value of 180 or more. Auburn won 8 games in 2011, Wyoming, Marshall, BC (2013), Maryland (2014) won 7, 4 teams won 6. All the rest, 96 teams won 5 or less. Average win total for those 105 teams, 3 wins. And they are just now getting into the hard part of the schedule.

Good for you. The odds are stacked against us. I'm hopeful anyways. The O and D both looked better vs top 25 Pitt, so that's something.

You realize I haven't resurrected a single post, right? Not a one.
 
Since Cusian is so big into resurrecting posts, here's something of more recent vintage.

Going into this week SU is now ranked 111 in total offense, 69th in total defense, combined value of 180. From 2009 through 2014, 105 teams finished with a combined value of 180 or more.

Auburn won 8 games in 2011, Wyoming, Marshall, BC (2013), Maryland (2014) won 7, 4 teams won 6. All the rest, 96 teams won 5 or less. Average win total for those 105 teams, 3 wins.

And they are just now getting into the hard part of the schedule.


Had to look that up. We're 11th in total offense with all our weapons? Yes, we are:
http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/21/p3

Look who is three spots ahead of us. They are undefeated. Weird. And Penn State has a pretty good record, too.

I think our problem s on offense are (A) that we seem to have a good half and a bad half) and (B) Our lack of a short yardage offense means we give up the ball too much and don't have the number of plays other teams have.
 
Had to look that up. We're 11th in total offense with all our weapons? Yes, we are:
http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/21/p3

Look who is three spots ahead of us. They are undefeated. Weird. And Penn State has a pretty good record, too.

I think our problem s on offense are (A) that we seem to have a good half and a bad half) and (B) Our lack of a short yardage offense means we give up the ball too much and don't have the number of plays other teams have.

Temple is 14th in defense, and Penn St is 23rd, that's why the metric is the combined value. You can get away, depending on your schedule, with being bad on offense or defense if you are really good on the other side.

If SU had their average defense over the last seven years with the way the offense has played this team would be 6-1, at least. But they don't, so they aren't.
 
Temple is 14th in defense, and Penn St is 23rd, that's why the metric is the combined value. You can get away, depending on your schedule, with being bad on offense or defense if you are really good on the other side.

If SU had their average defense over the last seven years with the way the offense has played this team would be 6-1, at least. But they don't, so they aren't.

So, then the problem with this year's team is the defense after all.
 
Had to look that up. We're 11th in total offense with all our weapons? Yes, we are:
http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/21/p3

Look who is three spots ahead of us. They are undefeated. Weird. And Penn State has a pretty good record, too.

I think our problem s on offense are (A) that we seem to have a good half and a bad half) and (B) Our lack of a short yardage offense means we give up the ball too much and don't have the number of plays other teams have.
are the short yardage rushing stats really that bad? I don't know

3rd and 3 yards or less to go

passing
6-10 with an INT and 4 first downs

rushing
22 attempts, 13 first downs

they convert on 53% of those.

in 2012, we converted 54% of those.

i wish i had the stats for 3rd and 1, 2, or 3 yards to go. big difference between 1 and 3 yards

Screen_Shot_2013-05-06_at_8.56.59_PM_medium.png
 
Temple is 14th in defense, and Penn St is 23rd, that's why the metric is the combined value. You can get away, depending on your schedule, with being bad on offense or defense if you are really good on the other side.

If SU had their average defense over the last seven years with the way the offense has played this team would be 6-1, at least. But they don't, so they aren't.
i think it's harder for a non-factory to sustain a good defense. penn state, they might be able to do that. temple was 110th in rhule's first year and 92nd in addazio's last year.

i have big doubts about temple. their opponents have been so bad. they did well against PSU and ECU but their defense will fall back
 
So, then the problem with this year's team is the defense after all.

This thread isn't a good look for you. You produced a hostile and dismissive take that was completely wrong. Good job by you.

You are the one who fixated on the offense, I never said it was the only problem.
 
i think it's harder for a non-factory to sustain a good defense. penn state, they might be able to do that. temple was 110th in rhule's first year and 92nd in addazio's last year.

i have big doubts about temple. their opponents have been so bad. they did well against PSU and ECU but their defense will fall back

These guys know what to do, 5 out of 7 years finished 48th or higher.

If Isaiah Johnson didn't injure out , so many upperclassmen DL separate/get removed from the program, and Eskridge had stayed this team would have having a very good season.

How different would this team look if Ford had stayed and was playing at either WR or Safety.
 
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This thread isn't a good look for you. You produced a hostile and dismissive take that was completely wrong. Good job by you.

You are the one who fixated on the offense, I never said it was the only problem.

You really need to quit embarrassing yourself. You were the one who claimed that there are macro issues with the offense, which there are not. Go back and read the first page; you've had ample opportunities, since you resurrect this thead every couple of days, apparently to try to score "I told you so" points despite your initial premise being flawed and off target.

Our inconsistent offense is tied to inexperieince [that carries over to Lester, as well] and a subpar OL. I suppose that could be considered a systemic issue, but help is on the way as we've had two solid classes of OL in a row, almost all of whom have redshirted and project to be better than the current encumbents.

The QB is better than what we've had here in a long time, and he's just scracthing the surface. The playmaking talent--while young--is better than it has been in a LONG time. The system also isn't the problem, as you insinuated. The entire premise of this thread was focused on the wrong issues.

The REAL issue plauging this team is poor defensive play, not offense--and no matter how many junk statistical analyses you produce, it won't change that fact. The main reason we aren't averaging more plays and more yards / points is that we aren't stopping people and getting the ball back into our offense's hands. Period.

Everyone on this board except for you and a few others clearly understand that while we need to be better offensively, in the main the offense isn't the "macro" problem you made it out to be.

So all things considered, this thread IS a good look for me. The vast majority of what I tried explaining to you on page 1 is correct. I only got dismissive after you predictably started acting like a child every time someone has the audacity to express a different opinion than yours. That's what isn't a good look.

Now run along--isn't there a Marrone thread where you need to defend your hero to the death?
 
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This thread isn't a good look for you. You produced a hostile and dismissive take that was completely wrong. Good job by you.

You are the one who fixated on the offense, I never said it was the only problem.
lots of people wanted to believe there was some magical red zone efficiency going on early this year.

lo and behold, we're 89th in red zone TD%

we're 75th in yards per play

without the defensive, special teams, and OT touchdowns, they're 94th in scoring. Give them half of those back to them, they're 79th.

people will be less disappointed when they do more than just look at SCOREBOARD. play enough games and your yards per play will tell the story unless you get lucky or unlucky with turnovers and special teams

we're 76th on offense vs fbs and 95th on defense (yards per play) I'm not that impressed considering how dungey is. The defense is actually a smidge better than I expected.

76th and 95th out of 128 should get you 4 wins and 7 losses (FBS). bad fumble luck vs pitt might cost them one of those wins
 
?

You really need to quit embarrassing yourself. - That's too damn funny. All I said is that if they didn't improve all around a winning season was not likely to happen.

You were the one who claimed that there are macro issues with the offense, which there are not. - Where did I do that? And there are obviously issues on offense, they have been capped at generating 24 points in regulation and don't run enough plays, for a couple of reinforcing reasons, to give themselves enough chances to score more points.

Go back and read the first page; you've had ample opportunities, since you resurrect this thead every couple of days, apparently to try to score "I told you so" points despite your initial premise being flawed and off target. - And what about the premise was flawed and off target, it's been spot on to date.

Our inconsistent offense is tied to inexperieince [that carries over to Lester, as well] and a subpar OL. I suppose that could be considered a systemic issue, but help is on the way as we've had two solid classes of OL in a row, almost all of whom have redshirted and project to be better than the current encumbents. - Not once did I say anything about next year.

The QB is better than what we've had here in a long time, and he's just scracthing the surface. The playmaking talent--while young--is better than it has been in a LONG time. The system also isn't the problem, as you insinuated. The entire premise of this thread was focused on the wrong issues. - I never insinuated there was a problem with the offensive system. But have fun making up.

The REAL issue plauging this team is poor defensive play, not offense--and no matter how many junk statistical analyses you produce, it won't change that fact. The main reason we aren't averaging more plays and more yards / points is that we aren't stopping people and getting the ball back into our offense's hands. Period. - The real problem is both. The weaknesses of each reinforce each other. If there weren't any issues with the offense then they'd be fine with the way the defense is playing. The offense isn't efficient enough to overcome the limited possession.

Everyone on this board except for you and a few others clearly understand that while we need to be better offensively, in the main the offense isn't the "macro" problem you made it out to be. - Here is a recent post where I used the word "macro",

"You're assuming nothing but upside and no downside. (Note- That was in reference to Dungey's very high Passer Efficiency rating at the time) IF he can keep playing like that, great. More like than not his performance will fall back instead of improve from that. (Note - Which it has)

Doesn't solve the macro problems of not running enough plays, doing better on third down, and the yards the defense has given up. (Note - nope nothing about that is accurate)

As pointed out in that other thread I wasn't trying to predict future state, I was pointing out that if there wasn't significant improvement more than 5 wins was not likely. I never said improvement couldn't or wouldn't happen."

Here is your response,

"Wrong again, Go--I'm not assuming anything of the sort. I suggest as much a couple of posts above. The macro problems you keep clinging to will all solved by having this kid under center full time, with a full compliment of weapons at his disposal. Moving the ball better and retaining possession more will also reduce the amount of time the defense is on the field.


For the record, I'm letting you know now that I was right about Dungey, and his impact on our offensive production. You're welcome."

How's the working so far. Nice use of the word "clinging", as if pointing out reality is spinning some grossly unfair attack.


So all things considered, this thread IS a good look for me. The vast majority of what I tried explaining to you on page 1 is correct.

Really - here are your posts on page 1.

"Too small of a data set. How might those offensive numbers look if Dungey hadn't gotten injured in the first half against CMU, and we'd tacked on say three more TDs?" , - Bigger data set, trends have gone down not up, historically equals less wins, not more.

"Same point applies. We didn't get one TD in the second half against CMU. Dungey amasses fairly pedestrian yardage in relief if Hunt against RI.

Not remotely worried.", - Maybe you should worry, haven't scored a second half TD in the last two games either.

"People who don't understand quantitative analysis should refrain from using data to sound the alarm.

Especially when they fail to account for contextual factors that put outlier data in context within a limited data subset.", - Yep, I was completely out of line

"Here's a lens to view that data through: Eric Dungey has only started 4 of the 8 halves of football we've played. LSU outcome aside, that has clearly had an impact on our yardage, scores, and TOP.

More Dungey = more offensive production. That's why the predictive validity of the data is low in this case.", - Uh, not so much.

"Don't get your panties in a bunch. You're the one ringing the alarm bell, while simultaneously failing to take into account the context of why the data is where it is, and then calling others out for not sharing your chicken little interpretive viewpoint.

By the end of the year, this thread is going to look as off-target as the PS "journo's" preseason predictions. Book it. The offense is fine, and the numbers will continue to improve provided Dungey stays healthy." - I should have taken that action.

I only got dismissive after you predictably started acting like a child every time someone has the audacity to express a different opinion than yours. That's what isn't a good look.

Now run along--isn't there a Marrone thread where you need to defend your hero to the death?

The switch could come on mid season, the changes they made last week to the offense and defense were positive, but that doesn't change the basic limitations the team has displayed from the start and they still haven't solved the sources of those limitations on either side of the ball. They are also stepping up in class which makes the likelihood of breakthrough harder.

They are going to need to run the table against L'ville and NCState on the road and BC at home.

I think two out of three is doable but they are really going to need to step it up to get all three. Would love to see it, think the individual pieces are there, just think it's a year away, and there is nothing wrong with that, just reality, and that's all I've ever said.
 
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Millhouse said:
lots of people wanted to believe there was some magical red zone efficiency going on early this year. lo and behold, we're 89th in red zone TD% we're 75th in yards per play without the defensive, special teams, and OT touchdowns, they're 94th in scoring. Give them half of those back to them, they're 79th. people will be less disappointed when they do more than just look at SCOREBOARD. play enough games and your yards per play will tell the story unless you get lucky or unlucky with turnovers and special teams we're 76th on offense vs fbs and 95th on defense (yards per play) I'm not that impressed considering how dungey is. The defense is actually a smidge better than I expected. 76th and 95th out of 128 should get you 4 wins and 7 losses (FBS). bad fumble luck vs pitt might cost them one of those wins

I think you're wrong about YPP moving forward. I think we're due a breakout as the young guys learn how to put two halves together.

But that's strictly my opinion.
 
lots of people wanted to believe there was some magical red zone efficiency going on early this year.

lo and behold, we're 89th in red zone TD%

we're 75th in yards per play

without the defensive, special teams, and OT touchdowns, they're 94th in scoring. Give them half of those back to them, they're 79th.

people will be less disappointed when they do more than just look at SCOREBOARD. play enough games and your yards per play will tell the story unless you get lucky or unlucky with turnovers and special teams

we're 76th on offense vs fbs and 95th on defense (yards per play) I'm not that impressed considering how dungey is. The defense is actually a smidge better than I expected.

76th and 95th out of 128 should get you 4 wins and 7 losses (FBS). bad fumble luck vs pitt might cost them one of those wins

A model that relies on big plays and punts without a good defense is not a winning model. It was never going to work, at least in terms of wins and losses.

That's sustainable if you have great specials and/or stone the run and/or consistently generate turnovers, see VT and Rutgers.

That's not what we have here. Shafer's defense is predicated on bend, don't break, get the opponent into favorable 3rd downs and get off the field with pressure resulting in either a sack, inc, or int. It's isn't working this year because the run defense isn't forcing enough favorable 3rd downs and when they do get into those favorable situations there are too many offensive conversions.

If they find a way to change those percentages with Dixon changing field position and this offense, they could change the prospects the rest of the way, but until that is fixed, I don't see many wins.
 
lots of people wanted to believe there was some magical red zone efficiency going on early this year.

lo and behold, we're 89th in red zone TD%

we're 75th in yards per play

without the defensive, special teams, and OT touchdowns, they're 94th in scoring. Give them half of those back to them, they're 79th.

people will be less disappointed when they do more than just look at SCOREBOARD. play enough games and your yards per play will tell the story unless you get lucky or unlucky with turnovers and special teams

we're 76th on offense vs fbs and 95th on defense (yards per play) I'm not that impressed considering how dungey is. The defense is actually a smidge better than I expected.

76th and 95th out of 128 should get you 4 wins and 7 losses (FBS). bad fumble luck vs pitt might cost them one of those wins

Like I said, I think we're about to breakout on offense. We're playing good defenses the rest of the way so it may not be a huge jump in YPP. We may see a modest bump or holding steady.

But here's an interesting stat:

2012 vs FBS YPP 1st half of season (5 games): 5.478
2015 vs FBS YPP with Dungey 1st half of season (4 games): 5.85

2012 vs FBS YPP 2nd half of season (6 games): 6.37

I know it's like saying "if we play better, we'll be better" - but I think we're closer on offense than you and GO are alluding to.

EDIT: Do you remove FCS from YPP with us? It actually drags our avg down a bit oddly enough. I think running all 2nd half due to score warps things. I also think our YPP with Dungey is much better than without. Our YPP with would put us at #47.

2ND EDIT: I won't add Dungey's 1.25Q of action vs CMU... But 12.5 YPP?
 
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So much for that.

I'll say again what I said when Hunt was hurt, it's a free year, the record doesn't matter this year.

If Shafer had gotten six wins with this team he would have deserved an extension.

But I hope all the illusions about what this team is THIS YEAR are gone.

It's a work in progress, that's it.

Right. And I think that's ok. Now next year, assuming we continue down a path of having adequate back-ups at each position we should see a bump if not significant bump in results. All I am advocating is lets let the guy get his 4th year let that determine his 5-6 years. etc.
 
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