Duke Game...

[ivorytower]

I just watched the first half of the Duke game again. The face-offs and the ground balls after the face-off were just plain UGLY. Phaup and Varello should have rotated after Phaup lost the first 3. We were simply outhustled on most of the groundballs. I guess we know what will be a focal part of practice this week. I keep game notes because have too much time on hands. I can list in order but need to put time stamps for quicker reference but here is what happened on twenty faceoffs in first half if you dont want to rewatch .

Not really. I jot down game notes so here is summary on twenty faceoffs . Can list in order if wished but no time stamp which ill start doing. 8 Naso clean wins, 2 Naso violation, 2 Phaup violations, 1 Varello violation, 1 Syracuse push off scrum off initial naso win so duke awarded ball , I duke push on scrum off initial Naso win syracuse awarded ball , 2 gbs by Duke wings off loose balls on near wing, 1 gb by Syracuse near wing off Varello kickback , 2 clean Varello wins where he loses ball running into Duke box, .one just pops out and the other was stripped by Naso

 

[ivorytower]

n not sure a coach should make a change after 3 faceoffs. 1st resulted in a Syracuse push of nano off a scrum, second clean Naso win and third faceoff was the first violation on Phaup. Not a faceoff expert but still trying to see violations. 11:37 left in 2nd and we have third violation which results in penalty and Duke goal. Must be difficult for Varello to have the concern of additional penalties hanging for nearly three quarters

 

[Gone]

I'm not a coach nor a lacrosse expert so just reacting to the situation. The game had major implications for potential playoff rankings and had the feel of a playoff game. If my starter fogo has lost 3 or 4 out of the gate, don't I want to try to change things up?
I remember well losing a late-season game in 2019 to UNC - they brought their 3rd fogo in either late 3rd of early 4th quarter. It was a big momentum shift we never recovered from.

 

[ivorytower]

The results of the fogo matchup wasn't clear at that point . It became clear several faceoffs later and Desko made the switch to Varello for the rest of the game. Someone who understands new faceoff rules needs to explain were the violations happened especially at 11:37 of 2q when Varello was called for Cuse third violation. My game notes had What?? southern home cooking ??? Score was 5-5 at time and Duke went on to score seven straight partly because D.V. had to be handicapped worrying about incurring another penalty since Duke was at 50% on man ups.

 

[Powellfan]

n not sure a coach should make a change after 3 faceoffs. 1st resulted in a Syracuse push of nano off a scrum, second clean Naso win and third faceoff was the first violation on Phaup. Not a faceoff expert but still trying to see violations. 11:37 left in 2nd and we have third violation which results in penalty and Duke goal. Must be difficult for Varello to have the concern of additional penalties hanging for nearly three quarters

Just to clarify IT, the violations only last for a half, so Phaup and Varello had a clean slate entering the third quarter (though it still has to effect one mentally, especially when you got violations as quickly as they did in the first half). Not sure what led to the violations, but I think it had something to do with how they were lining up, since it happened so quickly. Has been lots of talk about how refs in different regions seem to be officiating face-offs differently leading to a lot of confusion. Frustrating.

 

[CuseAlum87]

The results of the fogo matchup wasn't clear at that point . It became clear several faceoffs later and Desko made the switch to Varello for the rest of the game. Someone who understands new faceoff rules needs to explain were the violations happened especially at 11:37 of 2q when Varello was called for Cuse third violation. My game notes had What?? southern home cooking ??? Score was 5-5 at time and Duke went on to score seven straight partly because D.V. had to be handicapped worrying about incurring another penalty since Duke was at 50% on man ups.

From what I've heard, take with big grain of salt, the referees want the players to set up in the correct position immediately without instruction from the refs. So, the violation occurs before the whistle kind of like a delay of game. On broadcasts this weekend both Carc and Quint were referring to it as a zero tolerance policy. So if hands, stick, stick head, player's head, feet etc aren't correct when they go down, it's a violation.

 

[ivorytower]

Thank you Powell for that clarification. Thought it carried over but should have realized that since see both Varello and Naso both had one violation in second half

 

[ivorytower]

From what I've heard, take with big grain of salt, the referees want the players to set up in the correct position immediately without instruction from the refs. So, the violation occurs before the whistle kind of like a delay of game. On broadcasts this weekend both Carc and Quint were referring to it as a zero tolerance policy. So if hands, stick, stick head, player's head, feet etc aren't correct when they go down, it's a violation.

Thanks for info but that is unnecessary overkill. I fall over tying my shoes

 

[JeremyCuse]

Just to clarify IT, the violations only last for a half, so Phaup and Varello had a clean slate entering the third quarter (though it still has to effect one mentally, especially when you got violations as quickly as they did in the first half). Not sure what leto the violations, but I think it had something to do with how they were lining up, since it happened so quickly. Has been lots of talk about how refs in different regions seem to be officiating face-offs differently leading to a lot of confusion. Frustrating.

YES it was how Phaup was lined up, as wdsr noted I think the officials are now explaining the process before the game and having zero tolerance once the first whistle blows. As usual the NCAA has taken a broken system (faceoffs) and made it a million times worse. I don't fault Dekso's strategy but he should have gone back to Phaup in the 4th once Varello stopped winning draws again. Phaup's problem is he usually isn't a quick corrector, when he starts losing 3-4-5 in a row he has to be pulled as he struggles on the fly. The other issue is that SU isn't utilizing its depth. We have 6 FOGO's on the roster, running out 2 guys when both are struggling makes zero sense. I don't think Garlow is someone they trust but give him or Kline or someone a few draws and see if you catch lightning in a bottle, the substitution pattern for SU at the X has been concerning to say the least.

 

[JeremyCuse]

From what I've heard, take with big grain of salt, the referees want the players to set up in the correct position immediately without instruction from the refs. So, the violation occurs before the whistle kind of like a delay of game. On broadcasts this weekend both Carc and Quint were referring to it as a zero tolerance policy. So if hands, stick, stick head, player's head, feet etc aren't correct when they go down, it's a violation.

Believe this is 100% correct.

 

[CuseAlum87]

I wonder if they had instituted this policy in the fall as how they would officiate the draws, if there would be less confusion and more consistency across officiating crews. Maryland's Shockey was called for it against Rutgers and he was visibly frustrated. The FOGOs are used to having the refs adjust their set ups, then all of a sudden in week 5 they are told new rules in pre-game instruction.

 

[GoSU96]

From what I've heard, take with big grain of salt, the referees want the players to set up in the correct position immediately without instruction from the refs. So, the violation occurs before the whistle kind of like a delay of game. On broadcasts this weekend both Carc and Quint were referring to it as a zero tolerance policy. So if hands, stick, stick head, player's head, feet etc aren't correct when they go down, it's a violation.

That's just stupid. This isn't gymnastics, figure skating, or synchronized swimming.

It's a physical sport, not being judged for coloring inside the borders.

 

[CuseAlum87]

That's just stupid. This isn't gymnastics, figure skating, or synchronized swimming.

It's a physical sport, not being judged for coloring inside the borders.

Well, one FOGO could gain an unfair advantage by having his stick head tilted forward instead of perpendicular or having one or both hands off the ground etc. It is a very technical position and difficult to play as well as officiate.

 

[wgdsr]

I wonder if they had instituted this policy in the fall as how they would officiate the draws, if there would be less confusion and more consistency across officiating crews. Maryland's Shockey was called for it against Rutgers and he was visibly frustrated. The FOGOs are used to having the refs adjust their set ups, then all of a sudden in week 5 they are told new rules in pre-game instruction.

it's not new, it has been the protocol all season. not sure if officials not hanging in there to correct is covid related or not.

 

[wgdsr]

i was ready to call "ROPE A DOPE" ala the great ALI . let them punch themselves out early and beat them up second half but alas it was not meant to be. still curious about the kennedy call. was that clarified ? but still we came so close. NEXT TIME DUKIES...

giles-harris' glove had come off prior to the check to dislodge. the whistle was for keeping possession as equipment loss happened to the team with the ball.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[sholokov2]

From what I've heard, take with big grain of salt, the referees want the players to set up in the correct position immediately without instruction from the refs. So, the violation occurs before the whistle kind of like a delay of game. On broadcasts this weekend both Carc and Quint were referring to it as a zero tolerance policy. So if hands, stick, stick head, player's head, feet etc aren't correct when they go down, it's a violation.

My eye sight is going, but holy crap, I cannot see most of the Fogo violations in any of the games I've watched except the obvious pre whistle jumps. It must be the phantom FOGO mystique, a virus implanted by home teams. Do the coaches know what the refs are looking for? If they do, why don't they let the FOGOs know before the first whistle? If they don't, why don't they ask the refs before the game to go over them in detail, so they can inform the players. Three in the first minutes of the game is either incomprehension or incapacitating anxiety. Varello calmed down in the second half, but still could not keep the ball in his stick most of the time.

Second in my game preparation rant is the first half snoozy defense syndrome ala Army. First half the defense played like commuters waiting for the A train in New York at 8:00 a.m. The old push and shove strategy. Then in the second half, the defense played like the seasoned vets they are. Did they need half time to adjust to what they must have watched all week in Duke videos. Had the team prepared at the FOGO to improve just a bit in the first half, and the defense fired up at the start of the game, they might have won the game by 3 or 4 goals. C'mon captains and coaches light a fire before the next games.

 

[ForCuseSake]

My eye sight is going, but holy crap, I cannot see most of the Fogo violations in any of the games I've watched except the obvious pre whistle jumps. It must be the phantom FOGO mystique, a virus implanted by home teams. Do the coaches know what the refs are looking for? If they do, why don't they let the FOGOs know before the first whistle? If they don't, why don't they ask the refs before the game to go over them in detail, so they can inform the players. Three in the first minutes of the game is either incomprehension or incapacitating anxiety.

Agree 100%. Not saying this happened at Duke, but it's crappy officiating not to take time during a stoppage to explain (either to the coach/bench or specific player) what they're seeing and calling.

I had the benefit of playing Section III lax in the early-mid 90s when Palumb was starting his officiating career. I specifically remember him warning me (and another close D teammate) to "keep it on the hands and stick or you're getting a flag" after a few errant stick checks.

He was the first official I'd ever had interact with players from both teams on why he called something. He had (and I imagine still has) a knack for making concise comments to expertly manage game play.

 

[Gone]

My eye sight is going, but holy crap, I cannot see most of the Fogo violations in any of the games I've watched except the obvious pre whistle jumps. It must be the phantom FOGO mystique, a virus implanted by home teams. Do the coaches know what the refs are looking for? If they do, why don't they let the FOGOs know before the first whistle? If they don't, why don't they ask the refs before the game to go over them in detail, so they can inform the players. Three in the first minutes of the game is either incomprehension or incapacitating anxiety. Varello calmed down in the second half, but still could not keep the ball in his stick most of the time.

Second in my game preparation rant is the first half snoozy defense syndrome ala Army. First half the defense played like commuters waiting for the A train in New York at 8:00 a.m. The old push and shove strategy. Then in the second half, the defense played like the seasoned vets they are. Did they need half time to adjust to what they must have watched all week in Duke videos. Had the team prepared at the FOGO to improve just a bit in the first half, and the defense fired up at the start of the game, they might have won the game by 3 or 4 goals. C'mon captains and coaches light a fire before the next games.

I agree with most of your comments. This game was not only a critical game for Cuse and Duke but also a national showcase for lacrosse. The refs should have recognized that our fogos were confused and dealt with it as you say.

As for the defense, I agree that they most likely should have been able to adjust "on the fly" in the 1st half. However, I think it is fair to give them some slack as the ball was in their end almost non-stop with pressure from an elite offense for most of the 1st half. I can't speak to whether Duke was doing anything different from previous game film which Cuse had reviewed.