Eric Ayala Derail Thread

[orangefog]

With Diallo entering the Draft, watch Pay Pal Cal swoop in with a 2017 offer.

I bet he wouldn't stop to think about it either.

 

[Cusesky8214]

Who says our guys don't act like the big boys? The way some of you post, you think that some of you have actually managed rosters before.

Not really sure how to respond to this. I for one would like to think we are one of the big boys. We have a heck of a basketball program over the years, great facilities, huge fan base and a HOF coach. BUT for whatever reason this recruiting cycle we have struck out at a alarming rate and seem to have a problem with getting some of the top caliber players to want to come here. I guess it's just a down year I don't know and I don't pretend to know..it is what is is even though it's frustrating, our staff is out trying to fill our roster the best they can. Maybe some mistakes were made along the way but who am I to judge. Not sure anyone made any comments that made it seem like they have managed a roster before or have come off as know it alls...just a bunch of fans talking about the ups and downs of our recruiting this year and speculating as to why that may be. Isn't that what forums are about?

 

[RF2044]

With the exception of the true Blue Blood schools, our staff is as "Big' as anyone else out there, consistently. Up years, down years, yes. All teams have them. More down during sanction years? Of course, but that's to be expected. Ayala, Tucker et al are both nice players, but hardly make or break, and 17 is not a make or break year all by itself. Some posters haven't been taking their chill pills lately.

Not having one or both could certainly make or break next season. And not having them could relegate our program to the NIT for the second consecutive year, placing us on precarious footing one step closer to Jim Boeheim's imminent retirement, which could have make or break implications for longer than next season.

 

[Day2]

Patterson was a COMBO guard who was congenitally incapable of shooting. What you seem to not be grasping is that we brought in two guards in that class. Your logic about Ennis being ranked higher than Morris applies to Morris being rated substantially higher than Patterson. Why not add Morris--who bent over backwards letting the staff know that he wanted to come here and was fine playing behind Ennnis--instead of Patterson?

It also highlights what has become an increasingly problematic dynamic with how the staff approaches recruiting. Locking in on one recruit at a key position of need can and does backfire. Just because it worked with Ennis, doesn't mean that we wouldn't have been better off the next three years with Morris being the Scoop to Ennis's Flynn [early entrant]. Our current approach isn't a smart strategy, and has begun to yield unfavorable impacts / outcomes with alarming frequency in recent classes.

One more important thing to mention about Morris--he lit up the Select summer camp our program runs every summer. Absolutely killed it. He and his mom were shocked that his performance didn't garner an offer. He went on to have an all American career at ISU. The coaching staff blew it on that one.

"I’m a two guard who can shoot it, a regular 2-guard." - Ron Patterson, after committing to Syracuse.

Now I agree he was brought in to be a combo guard, but that's still not the same as bringing in two point guards. (Jardine was also brought in as a combo guard and developed into a PG.)

My original statement stands: We - as in the coaching staff - were not going to bring in Ennis and Morris. That's not to say your concerns aren't valid. It's just the way things are.

 

[orangefog]

"I’m a two guard who can shoot it, a regular 2-guard." - Ron Patterson, after committing to Syracuse.

Now I agree he was brought in to be a combo guard, but that's still not the same as bringing in two point guards. (Jardine was also brought in as a combo guard and developed into a PG.)

My original statement stands: We - as in the coaching staff - were not going to bring in Ennis and Morris. That's not to say your concerns aren't valid. It's just the way things are.

I remember a quote from Hop after Scoop committed, I am paraphrasing but "we just got the best point guard in the country". Scoop was always a point guard, but in college basketball you can play with two point guards. Morris was always better than Bus, it's perplexing why they chose to take Bus. Maybe they thought he could be a defensive force at the top of the zone, due to his freakishly long arms. Who knows? It is water under the bridge. The staff has made mistakes in the past, and they will make more mistakes in the future, but they have also hit some home runs. But, we are in a slump, we need a home run to get us back on track.

 

[RF2044]

I remember a quote from Hop after Scoop committed, I am paraphrasing but "we just got the best point guard in the country". Scoop was always a point guard, but in college basketball you can play with two point guards. Morris was always better than Bus, it's perplexing why they chose to take Bus. Maybe they thought he could be a defensive force at the top of the zone, due to his freakishly long arms. Who knows? It is water under the bridge. The staff has made mistakes in the past, and they will make more mistakes in the future, but they have also hit some home runs. But, we are in a slump, we need a home run to get us back on track.

Agreed -- the staff viewed Scoop as a point guard. They talked about him playing off the ball only because Flynn was here. That didn't change that he was a point guard.

 

[cusetown1]

I remember a quote from Hop after Scoop committed, I am paraphrasing but "we just got the best point guard in the country". Scoop was always a point guard, but in college basketball you can play with two point guards. Morris was always better than Bus, it's perplexing why they chose to take Bus. Maybe they thought he could be a defensive force at the top of the zone, due to his freakishly long arms. Who knows? It is water under the bridge. The staff has made mistakes in the past, and they will make more mistakes in the future, but they have also hit some home runs. But, we are in a slump, we need a home run to get us back on track.

They wanted rysheed Jordan (same class as ennis) who was also a pg, that didn't happen and they took RP. Am I not remembering correctly ?

 

[orangefog]

They wanted rysheed Jordan (same class as ennis) who was also a pg, that didn't happen and they took RP. Am I not remembering correctly ?

Someone else will probably be more clear on this, but Morris wanted us, we didn't want him. We wanted Jordan, but he didn't want to play second fiddle to Ennis so he went elsewhere. And then Indiana cut Bus loose and we grabbed him.

 

[Fly Rodder]

... The staff has made mistakes in the past, and they will make more mistakes in the future, but they have also hit some home runs. But, we are in a slump, we need a home run to get us back on track.

It's not just HRs, to continue the analogy, but it seems like lately it's either a HR or a strikeout. Need some doubles and base hits in there.

 

[SoBeCuse]

They wanted rysheed Jordan who was also a pg, that didn't happen and they took RP. Am I not remembering correctly ?

Probably need to stay on Ayala but that's my understanding as well. So that theory about staff not wanting two PGs (although they seem to often limit number of PGs on roster) is bunk. Jordan just didn't want to play second fiddle to Ennis while Morris was fine with it. That's how I remember it at least.

Maybe Boeheim doesn't really want to manage tons of talent like a Calipari or K. I don't get it. It's your job!!

But, IMO, all zone is getting outdated fast with the elite recruits. Boeheim's age certainly isn't helping things. I wonder if the current roster talent is attractive enough for some of the better recruits to want to sign on and play with. I think Hopkins was offering a more attractive style of play and selling point to recruits. Apparently Ennis was reassuring and reinforcing that to a guy like Quinerly. Now we can kiss Quinerly goodbye. I really hope the old man can turn this thing around fast. I'm genuinely worried that the HC is just relying on the 'aura' of the program and program legacy to try to get some of this great talent we need and has been neglecting vital parts of roster construction in recent years. We'll see.

 

[orangefog]

It's not just HRs, to continue the analogy, but it seems like lately it's either a HR or a strikeout. Need some doubles and base hits in there.

True, hell I will take a hit by pitch.

 

[RF2044]

"I’m a two guard who can shoot it, a regular 2-guard." - Ron Patterson, after committing to Syracuse.

Now I agree he was brought in to be a combo guard, but that's still not the same as bringing in two point guards. (Jardine was also brought in as a combo guard and developed into a PG.)

My original statement stands: We - as in the coaching staff - were not going to bring in Ennis and Morris. That's not to say your concerns aren't valid. It's just the way things are.

Your original statement is completely unsubstantiated, given that we brought in two guards that class. If we'd only brought in Ennis, you'd have a stronger case -- but we brought in a second guard. We - as in the coaching staff - screwed up bringing in Patterson over Morris. It was a flawed recruiting strategy -- one that has bit the program in the arse for the past four seasons, during which we've had four different starting point guards. We've brought in multiple players at the same position before. Our peers do it all the time. There's no reason that we couldn't or shouldn't have done so, instead of filling the slot with a lesser guard who couldn't shoot his way out of a paper bag, despite what he claimed.

That quote from Patterson should serve as a cautionary tale for why quotes from players, their AAU coaches, parents, and HS coaches need to be taken with an immense grain of salt -- especially when it comes to describing player abilities / potential.

 

[cusetown1]

That's my understanding as well. So that theory about staff not wanting two PGs (although they seem to often limit number of PGs on roster) is bunk. Jordan just didn't want to play second fiddle to Ennis while Morris was fine with it. That's how I remember it at least.

Exactly

 

[RF2044]

That's my understanding as well. So that theory about staff not wanting two PGs (although they seem to often limit number of PGs on roster) is bunk. Jordan just didn't want to play second fiddle to Ennis while Morris was fine with it. That's how I remember it at least.

COMPLETE bunk. Agree 100%.

But thank god we dodged that Jordan bullet...

 

[pfister1]

Agreed. It honestly makes no sense to me. I would love for someone involved in the decision to not offer Morris to explain the logic to me.

So I won't argue the point that we missed on Monte Morris, but looking at the timeline we had a number of guys at the time that would have factored into our decision to pursue him or not.

Morris committed to Iowa State on June 27, 2012. So the decision made by the staff not to offer him was based on the roster makeup (both current players and committed prospects) at that time or earlier.

- As of June 27, 2012 MCW was coming off a season where he didn't get that much run and was behind Scoop and Waiters. I don't think it was clear at that time that we would have him only one additional year.
- Tyler Ennis didn't commit to SU until August 16, 2012. He didn't play for SU until 2013-14. At the time that the Morris decision was made, Ennis hadn't yet committed, but assuming we were confident we'd get him we didn't anticipate that he would have a leading role that year, much less be a one and done.
- Mike Gbinije announced his intent to transfer to Syracuse in late April 2012. At the time he was a SF who I believe we anticipated would also help us at SG. He obviously was not a PG at that time.
- At that time we had Cooney just coming off of his redshirt year. Morris' freshman year would have been Cooney's RS-sophomore year.

- The summer of 2012, I think it is fair to say that the staff anticipated having MCW and probably Ennis on the roster in Morris' first year or two.
- We also had several options at shooting guard (Cooney and Gbinije), who at the time may have projected as better shooters.

- While we may have ended up with Buss, he did not factor into the decision on Monte Morris. In fact, Buss was attending summer school courses on IU's campus the summer of 2012, fully intending to become a Hoosier. For some reason, IU elected not to admit him and essentially revoked his scholarship offer, he ended up at Brewster Academy for the 2012-13 season and came to SU as a freshman in 2013-14. I don't think Buss factored into SU's decision on Morris because I believe he was committed to Indiana at the time that the decision on Morris would have been made.

Back in 2011-12 season looking forward there were a heckuva a lot of moving pieces to consider and it may just be that we had other pieces that we thought would serve us better. It's easy to look back and say we absolutely should have offered Morris, but everything is clear in hindsight.

 

[orangefog]

It's not just HRs, to continue the analogy, but it seems like lately it's either a HR or a strikeout. Need some doubles and base hits in there.

As I think about it, I think we should stick to Earl Weaver recruiting. A single (four year player), then a double 2-3 year guy) followed by the three run homer (one and done). Rinse wash repeat.

 

[pfister1]

Your original statement is completely unsubstantiated, given that we brought in two guards that class. If we'd only brought in Ennis, you'd have a stronger case -- but we brought in a second guard. We - as in the coaching staff - screwed up bringing in Patterson over Morris. It was a flawed recruiting strategy -- one that has bit the program in the arse for the past four seasons, during which we've had four different starting point guards. We've brought in multiple players at the same position before. Our peers do it all the time. There's no reason that we couldn't or shouldn't have done so, instead of filling the slot with a lesser guard who couldn't shoot his way out of a paper bag, despite what he claimed.

That quote from Patterson should serve as a cautionary tale for why quotes from players, their AAU coaches, parents, and HS coaches need to be taken with an immense grain of salt -- especially when it comes to describing player abilities / potential.

We did not select Patterson over Morris. Patterson was committed to IU and I don't think we had even recruited him at the time that Morris committed to Iowa State. Patterson became available after that when IU screwed him on admission to get their roster down to 13 players.

 

[orangefog]

We did not select Patterson over Morris. Patterson was committed to IU and I don't think we had even recruited him at the time that Morris committed to Iowa State. Patterson became available after that when IU screwed him on admission to get their roster down to 13 players.

True, it was not a head to head with Morris vs Bus. And, your timeline is very useful in determining why the staff may have slow played Morris to the point that he took another option. We didn't know that MCW was leaving and we knew that Ennis was our number one and quite likely to come here. So, at that point, no need for another guard.

 

[RF2044]

We did not select Patterson over Morris. Patterson was committed to IU and I don't think we had even recruited him at the time that Morris committed to Iowa State. Patterson became available after that when IU screwed him on admission to get their roster down to 13 players.

I never said that we "selected" Patterson over Morris. I said that we eventually brought him in as the second guard in that class.

 

[Day2]

Your original statement is completely unsubstantiated, given that we brought in two guards that class. If we'd only brought in Ennis, you'd have a stronger case -- but we brought in a second guard.

Who wasn't a point guard. Full stop.

 

[Day2]

Tyler Ennis didn't commit to SU until August 16, 2012. He didn't play for SU until 2013-14. At the time that the Morris decision was made, Ennis hadn't yet committed, but assuming we were confident we'd get him we didn't anticipate that he would have a leading role that year, much less be a one and done.

Back in 2011-12 season looking forward there were a heckuva a lot of moving pieces to consider and it may just be that we had other pieces that we thought would serve us better. It's easy to look back and say we absolutely should have offered Morris, but everything is clear in hindsight.

Exactly. You risk losing Ennis by committing to Morris first.

 

[Cusesky8214]

Schools like Duke, Carolina and Kentucky have bigger fish to catch than Ayala.

I agree...i just think the people in his ear are filling him with some b.s. he has a heck of an opportunity in front of him right now to come to cuse and play some meaningful minutes and be a big part of our offense but apparently isn't ready for it. Seems like he was from what some have said on here and that he told our coaches he was coming but I think he's getting some crap advice from somebody

 

[Day2]

Someone else will probably be more clear on this, but Morris wanted us, we didn't want him.

Which tells me they felt he was undersized. Had they known he was going to grow a couple inches and that Ennis would leave after one year, perhaps they would have done things differently.

 

[JLine]

Who says our guys don't act like the big boys? The way some of you post, you think that some of you have actually managed rosters before.

It's getting tiresome. Everyone is an expert, and knows what the staff should have done, or be doing it seems.

The staff made some mistakes, sure. GMac isn't my top choice, sure. Things have been rough with the JB/Hop uncertainty, sure. We want depth, sure. Sure, I used sure surely too much.

Well we added Howard Washington at PG. With OB, Sidibe, and MM. To go along with Battle, and TT. Hopefully Frank, and PC improve. We do have two PGs, but since they don't seem to many to be Pearl, Sherm, or have the potential to become Scoop et cetera, then the sky is falling.

So many act like these kids are below us. Yes, we need a 3, and another guard. It shall come.

EA isn't the damn messiah. He seemingly doesn't want to come here, or is being pushed away by his camp. Time to move on to kids that want to be here. Like HW, MM, OB, Sidibe, TT. Our core for the future. Along with whoever wants to join up for 2017, whether it's for a year, or more. Then 2018, the talent is a plenty and we have a pretty nice program to recruit talent. I guess we're BC all of the sudden I hear.

 

[Day2]

I remember a quote from Hop after Scoop committed, I am paraphrasing but "we just got the best point guard in the country". Scoop was always a point guard, but in college basketball you can play with two point guards. Morris was always better than Bus, it's perplexing why they chose to take Bus. Maybe they thought he could be a defensive force at the top of the zone, due to his freakishly long arms. Who knows? It is water under the bridge. The staff has made mistakes in the past, and they will make more mistakes in the future, but they have also hit some home runs. But, we are in a slump, we need a home run to get us back on track.

Antonio Jardine - Basketball Recruiting - Player Profiles - ESPN

I remember him being referred to as a shooting guard when he first came in. I also remember hearing about how hard he worked during his redshirt year and the following summer to develop into a PG.