Frank and trevor......

[721Comstock]

Gerry Dunked in HS, there is a grainy bit of vid on youtube...

There's a grainy bit of vid on youtube about Sasquatch, the Loch Ness Monster, and aliens in UFO's too...

 

[rrlbees]

Uggh, great display here. Arguing over SU players , ripping on them, comparing them- let's vote on the internet 'winner' sitting in front of their computer. Craig Forth, Gerry McNamara, Donte Green, Terrence Roberts, Andy Rautins, Brandon Triche, Trevor Cooney etc all took their turns being the assigned team goat. Always disheartening, disappointing and confounding seeing 'fans' designate their favorite team goat and even get defensive if someone dares defend their favorite themed player to rip on. :bat:Comparing Howard and Cooney who had totally different positions, different teammates and never even played any true minutes together nor vied for playing time.

Cooney played, coordinated up top defense and offense with 4 different point guards - MCW, Ennis, Joseph and Mike G in his years here. Opponents from 2012 through 2016 averaged 6.2 to 7 three pointers made a game. This year opponents even before the meat of the season are averaging 9 made 3 pointers and having the highest % made .385 in any of the previous 5 years (which was 2013-2014 at .345%). Made 3 pointers are a function of the communication , execution and rotation by the entire defensive effort for all 5 players to the perimeter. Even one weak link and offenses will jump on it.

Isn’t it great? Fans always gotta be tearing down the guys they are rooting for.

 

[doc05]

I remember Autry being a bit of a disappointment early on, given how highly rated he was coming in.

I distinctly remember hearing some boos directed at Autry early on.

 

[realorange]

I distinctly remember hearing some boos directed at Autry early on.

Yes. One of Red's favorite moves was driving to the basket and then trying to figure out what to do next.

Funny how it turned out pretty well after he got some experience under his belt. I guess he was the only one that will ever go down that road.

 

[OttoMets]

Uggh, great display here. Arguing over SU players , ripping on them, comparing them- let's vote on the internet 'winner' sitting in front of their computer. Craig Forth, Gerry McNamara, Donte Green, Terrence Roberts, Andy Rautins, Brandon Triche, Scoop, Trevor Cooney etc all took their turns being the assigned team goat. Always disheartening, disappointing and confounding seeing 'fans' designate their favorite team goat and even get defensive if someone dares defend their favorite themed player to rip on. :bat:Comparing Howard and Cooney who had totally different positions, different teammates and never even played any true minutes together nor vied for playing time.

Cooney played, coordinated up top defense and offense with 4 different point guards - MCW, Ennis, Joseph and Mike G in his years here. Opponents from 2012 through 2016 averaged 6.2 to 7 three pointers made a game. This year opponents even before the meat of the season are averaging 9 made 3 pointers and having the highest % made .385 in any of the previous 5 years (which was 2013-2014 at .345%). Made 3 pointers are a function of the communication , execution and rotation by the entire defensive effort for all 5 players to the perimeter. Even one weak link and offenses will jump on it.

Uh huh. Almost as disheartening as making ad hominem criticisms of other posters rather than talking about basketball, which was the point of VT's and my posts (and this board).

 

[OttoMets]

Cooney has a much better shot than Howard. Howard is allowed to shoot basically uncontested shots. Cooney was forced to shoot highly contested shots. Check their free throw shooting stats. who would you rather on the line at the end of games? How many blue chip games has Howard played against top tier teams? Cooney was a better defender at the top of the zone. Howard is getting better. Let's see where he ends up.

Agree that they're two different situations (and apologies for derailing the thread, since OP obviously meant to compare the two players' reputations, not their skills or contributions or anything like that). One's a five-year guy with a completed body of work, the other's a first-time starter who isn't even through his first non-conference season in that role. To say nothing of the difference in positions (in name if not in practice).

We'll see how Frank's shot and defense looks over a full season, and again next year, before a better comparison can be made.

 

[OrangeDW]

Hart was an unbelievable on-the-ball defender, which is why he played a decade in the NBA and got time in 23 playoff games. But as an offensive player he was maddening. His shot selection, and his turnovers per game was actually at it's highest for him as a senior.

Missed a ton of layups too. I agree. Loved his defense and hustle. His offense could be a frustrating watch.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yes, I'd say he had better than average athleticism. GMac was average athleticism. Trevor was far more athletic than Gerry, or Scoop, or many others.

I was trying to be a bit of dick just to get you to describe what you meant by "a lack of athleticism" which is a much different description than your current "not better than average."

Trevor was strong and could jump in certain situations. Like, if he drove in traffic it would look like he barely got off the floor. If he was in the open court and could gather himself first, he could get off the floor very well. He was not fluid or smooth though. He was kinda “choppy”. I think I once said that he seemed like the kind of guy that would mistime his jump off the diving board and not catch the ball that was thrown to him.

 

[OttoMets]

Missed a ton of layups too.

Elevated so well (but never dunked). Form was consistent. Yet seemed to leave layups rolling off the back-iron a lot. Never understood that, but remember how frustrating it was. Wonder if he had that problem in the NBA, too?

Hart seems like one of the most popular SU players in retrospect, but he caught a ton of crap during his career, especially the first three years.

 

[OttoMets]

Trevor was strong and could jump in certain situations. Like, if he drove in traffic it would look like he barely got off the floor. If he was in the open court and could gather himself first, he could get off the floor very well. He was not fluid or smooth though. He was kinda “choppy”. I think I once said that he seemed like the kind of guy that would mistime his jump off the diving board and not catch the ball that was thrown to him.

Yes, he jumped powerfully from two feet when he could set himself, but he couldn't seem to do that in traffic. Which is why I almost responded to the "what can Frank's athleticism get him that Cooney's couldn't?" question with: a made layup in the half-court. Trevor struggled mightily with that. I remember one such make (during the Final Four run), but I would bet that he didn't make ten shots at the rim in his career. Too many moving parts (dribble, set, elevate, release from the highest point) that he couldn't seem to coordinate.

 

[TinyManInside]

Yeah, not sure I'd give the nod to Marek at this point. Battle and Brissett both seem more athletic. I guess we could compare leaping ability. Not sure what else you are bringing into the equation. Both guys I mentioned are stronger than Marek. Marek has the best "motor" I've seen so far.

If you're just comparing straight up vertical leap (inches off the ground), then I believe the staff measured Moyer as the best leaper on this team. Brisset was a close second in vertical inches but his quickness off the floor and second jump dwarfs everyone else's on the team (and most players in college basketball for that matter).

 

[OrangeDW]

Personally, I would say all the players you cited had about average athleticism.

Pretty much any D1 player can dunk these days, so that as a standard for athleticism means almost nothing. Though i am not sure Scoop or gerry could do that. Gerry had a quicker first step and was quicker on his jump and release as compared to Trevor. Scoop was simply so smooth. It is hard to gauge exactly how athletic "smooth" players are. I think it is fair to say none of those players in terms of athleticism could be compared to Stevie or Hak. or Rony.

I should have said "lack of above average athleticism" in my post, which is what I actually meant.

I remember watching a highlight of Gerry catching an alley oop and dunking it in high school, so I’m sure he could dunk too.

 

[OttoMets]

I think McNamara dunked against Towson in Wilkes-Barre his senior year at SU. Quick search doesn't reveal any video.

 

[Brooky03]

I think GMac could dunk off a lob, or pass to himself off the board, but couldn't dunk off the dribble.

 

[kcsu]

I think GMac could dunk off a lob, or pass to himself off the board, but couldn't dunk off the dribble.

Gmac could never dunk off an ally

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think McNamara dunked against Towson in Wilkes-Barre his senior year at SU. Quick search doesn't reveal any video.

Correct.

 

[malpearl31]

Yes, he jumped powerfully from two feet when he could set himself, but he couldn't seem to do that in traffic. Which is why I almost responded to the "what can Frank's athleticism get him that Cooney's couldn't?" question with: a made layup in the half-court. Trevor struggled mightily with that. I remember one such make (during the Final Four run), but I would bet that he didn't make ten shots at the rim in his career. Too many moving parts (dribble, set, elevate, release from the highest point) that he couldn't seem to coordinate.

Re: Cooney and layups - Cooney made two real nice drives to kick-start the comeback run against Virginia in 2016 - one was an assist to Roberson for a dunk and the 2nd was a pretty lay-in. And his steal against Gonzaga (that was subsequently stolen from him by some inept officiating) in the game prior... literally the perfect zone rotation.

I'm rooting hard for Frank - but like it or not, Cooney was a big part of a Final Four run. That will tip the scales in his favor in my eyes for sure.

 

[sugrad68]

This is a tough one. I was never a big fan of Trevor. He would have 2-3 games a year where he was unstoppable. But he would have twice as many in which he shot maybe 20% from the 3-point line. I just don't think he lived up to the hype he was given. But I also can't believe how much running he did during the game, moving off screens, trying to get open. I watch SGs on other teams and very few, if any, did that. I will agree with anyone that he always gave 100% on the court.

Frank Howard has not come close to accomplishing what Cooney did. Cooney was a major contributor for 4 years. Howard did little last year and this year still has a lot to prove. Like all other SU fans, I'm pulling hard for Howard to show he can be a solid PG for a good team. But as of today, Cooney was the better player.

 

[PoppyHart]

Paul Harris comes to mind.

 

[SoBeCuse]

This is a tough one. I was never a big fan of Trevor. He would have 2-3 games a year where he was unstoppable. But he would have twice as many in which he shot maybe 20% from the 3-point line. I just don't think he lived up to the hype he was given. But I also can't believe how much running he did during the game, moving off screens, trying to get open. I watch SGs on other teams and very few, if any, did that. I will agree with anyone that he always gave 100% on the court.

Frank Howard has not come close to accomplishing what Cooney did. Cooney was a major contributor for 4 years. Howard did little last year and this year still has a lot to prove. Like all other SU fans, I'm pulling hard for Howard to show he can be a solid PG for a good team. But as of today, Cooney was the better player.

Agreed. I don’t think it is even close, frankly.

Both have/had limitations, play too many minutes, and are asked to perform above their talent level, IMO. Miscast sort of. It took a long time for Trevor to even be a minimal threat to put the ball on the floor and/or create for himself or somebody. The offense often could not get him open looks for whatever reason. Nobody worked as hard as Trevor running around like a crazy man trying to get open. Sure he was streaky and shot a ton of contested shots but our offense/structure/scheme didn’t help him out. Trevor rarely ever took plays off or showed poor court demeanor.

Frank is an incomplete so far but is making progress. He’s not a PG by any stretch of the imagination but we can only hope he makes strides and can get out of his own way. I personally think he has some quickenss/speed limitations as evident by that forward on Colgate schooling him from 3/4 of the court up in a foot race until the And-1, but, he has improved a lot since last year. He’d be perfect as a good scoring guard with size coming off the bench who can create some plays for himself and others.

 

[Brooky03]

Gmac could never dunk off an ally

I was just saying that if he could, it'd have to be a dunk with the ball already up near the rim. The first step in dunking for most guys who can dunk, is to have a friend (or yourself) toss the ball up near the rim and then you go up and try to flush it. Step 2 is dribbling/running up and dunking. Others have said they remember GMac dunking in college - which would probably mean it was off the dribble - so I could be wrong, but GMac doesn't strike me as a guy who ever got to step 2.

 

[kcsu]

I was just saying that if he could, it'd have to be a dunk with the ball already up near the rim. The first step in dunking for most guys who can dunk, is to have a friend (or yourself) toss the ball up near the rim and then you go up and try to flush it. Step 2 is dribbling/running up and dunking. Others have said they remember GMac dunking in college - which would probably mean it was off the dribble - so I could be wrong, but GMac doesn't strike me as a guy who ever got to step 2.

Gmac was a great catch and shoot player who got every ounce out of his talent. He was part of a team that fit perfectly together. Im sure that he could dunk but it was irrelevant to his contributions.

 

[Brooky03]

Gmac was a great catch and shoot player who got every ounce out of his talent. He was part of a team that fit perfectly together. Im sure that he could dunk but it was irrelevant to his contributions.

We agree that it was irrelevant to his contributions. He probably could dunk under the perfect circumstances. He probably got stuffed by the rim on most of his attempts, too. He was a great college basketball player, just not a great athlete (relative to other D1 athletes, of course).

edit: According to this article by a guy who apparently played against GMac in high school, GMac dunked on him: http://sports-glutton.com/2013/06/26/how-gerry-mcnamara-ruined-my-teenage-years/

legend also has it that GMac could dunk in 8th grade.

 

[OttoMets]

Re: Cooney and layups - Cooney made two real nice drives to kick-start the comeback run against Virginia in 2016 - one was an assist to Roberson for a dunk and the 2nd was a pretty lay-in. And his steal against Gonzaga (that was subsequently stolen from him by some inept officiating) in the game prior... literally the perfect zone rotation.

I'm rooting hard for Frank - but like it or not, Cooney was a big part of a Final Four run. That will tip the scales in his favor in my eyes for sure.

Sure was - wouldn't have happened without him. He played some of the most complete -- and restrained -- basketball of his career during that span.

 

[TinyManInside]

Gmac could never dunk off an ally

100% wrong. I saw him do it a few times in practice (back in Manley when it was open to the public). And he threw down a few alley-oops in the open practice before the National Championship game. There was even a picture of him on espn.com, hanging on the rim with a caption that said the photo was captured after he completed an alley-oop dunk. There is also video of him in the PA state championship game finishing an oop.