FSU vs The ACC

[Qbobby]

Personally, I wouldn't consider Tallahassee the Deep South. That's just me.

As a former resident of Panama City, I can assure you that the panhandle of Florida is basically south Alabama. Step one foot outside the city and it's pickup trucks side by side driving at 50 mph handing pistols to each other (an event I was in the truck for, to my horror).

 

[Sherman20]

FSU is laying out their basis to sue and there seems to be some merit. I never knew that the ACC media contract is only good until 2027 and ESPN has the option to extend to 2036. And, there seems to be some ACC bylaw issues that they could sue over.

I'm sure many ACC schools, including Syracuse, have been or will be contacting other conferences to see what's available to them. It will be an interesting 2024.

What was the point of the GOR if you can just sue and get out of it? I don’t think so. I don’t think they’re going to get anywhere with this—unless they’re willing to pay a crapton of money.

 

[PeteCalvin]

Someone mentioned that they heard the B1G is not especially interested in FSU. I'm wondering if politics will matter. The governors of California, Oregon, Washington, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Michigan and New Jersey are no fans of Florida and its governor. Not sure how much sway the governors have over this, and I doubt that would come into play, but would be kind of funny if it did. And FSU is burning its bridge with ESPN, so I doubt the SEC is an option, and Disney isn't exactly a fan of Florida state government right now.

Like I said, I doubt any of this comes into play, but would be hilarious if it did.

Syracuse would’ve been in the ACC several years earlier if it hadn’t been for the governor of Virginia. The Virginia state government put pressure on UVA to vote against any expansion that didn’t include VaTech. So SU was left at the altar in round one. Never underestimate the ability of corrupt state governments to cause problems wherever they can.

 

[Willy75]

ESPN is scrolling that the ACC actually filed a preemptive declaratory judgement action against FSU last night in North Carolina state court, seeking a ruling that the GOR is valid and enforceable!

 

[dasher]

Syracuse would’ve been in the ACC several years earlier if it hadn’t been for the governor of Virginia. The Virginia state government put pressure on UVA to vote against any expansion that didn’t include VaTech. So SU was left at the altar in round one. Never underestimate the ability of corrupt state governments to cause problems wherever they can.

That wasn't really currupt. The gov was looking out for a school in his state. Nothing more. We got the short end of the stick because of it. Nothing we wouldn't do if the roles were reveresed and we were the gov of New York and pull a power play like that.

 

[JimBoston]

Is Brett McMurphy a total numbskull? It’s the cost they estimate to negotiate themselves out of the GOR so they can keep their TV rights. The ACC shouldn’t play ball with this. FSU needs to stop being a petulant child and work to help the other schools strengthen the conference and make a long term plan to do so.

LT, there are a number of schools that want out of the ACC as some schools want to play in the SEC. The only thing potentially holding them back is the GORs, nothing else. They don't see a path to strengthen the conference. And, the additions of Cal, Stanford, and SMU if anything weakened the conference which now stretches from Miami to San Francisco to Boston.

 

[atom58]

I'm not sure they were out bid, I don't think they saw the same value ATM did

That is correct. They felt he was asking for more than what he was worth - the FB team had not done so well in his past several years. I understand people in the Athletic Department were looking forward to him leaving before he got the offer and made out like a bandit with ATM.

 

[atom58]

Is Brett McMurphy a total numbskull? It’s the cost they estimate to negotiate themselves out of the GOR so they can keep their TV rights. The ACC shouldn’t play ball with this. FSU needs to stop being a petulant child and work to help the other schools strengthen the conference and make a long term plan to do so.

Does he not know the exit fee is $120 MILLION + the GOR?!

 

[atom58]

I think one thing maybe all of you are missing is that the ACC got the drop on them first (beating them to the punch) by filing a declaratory lawsuit against them as to the validity of the GOR in NC yesterday (Thursday). They must have expected this to happen and likely have been preparing such a lawsuit for months if not years even! Some of their fans noted that today! They could have withdrawn it had the outcome been different.

There is not much I can do about this other than canceling my membership in the alumni association and donating that sweatshirt they sent to Goodwill industries. I will do both and explain the reason I am leaving them. This situation is disgraceful.

One last thing: UT and OU waited until the last two years as did U$C and UCLA. They did NOT challenge their GOR. The Big 12 helped the ACC write their GOR too I once read.

 

[atom58]

LT, there are a number of schools that want out of the ACC as some schools want to play in the SEC. The only thing potentially holding them back is the GORs, nothing else. They don't see a path to strengthen the conference. And, the additions of Cal, Stanford, and SMU if anything weakened the conference which now stretches from Miami to San Francisco to Boston.

What you are saying is also true of the B10 and to some extent the B12. The addition of SMU does NOT weaken the conference. You have not been keeping up with current events. I understand their NIL pays $36 thousand for FB, BB, and women's BB players and they just won the AAC. Also, Cal flattened UCLA and lost to U$C by just one point.

 

[atom58]

Did you pay any attention to FSU football during Bowden's final few years? He stepped aside too late; he took downward the program held built into a monster because he persisted in retaining his position when his age meant he did the job poorly. Beamer did the same thing at VT. ACC football was hurt by both those HOF coaches wanting to think their aging could not hurt anything.

I disagree. He was the reason they got there. They could have told him to get a new OC or DC and after that see what they could do. When David Cutcliffe was at Ole Miss he was the SEC Coach of the Year but when they had maybe a 6-5 or 5-7 year they told him to do the same. He stood by his coaches and they fired him! Ole Miss is not FB royalty. Any person in their right mind knows there are fluctuations in FB as in life but try explaining that to a group of idiot fans with whom one cannot reason!

 

[mayselc]

It is a possibility but the courts are likely to watch what happens with Duke, NCState and Wake, also. Even the Florida courts have to watch out for Miami. Though, it is hard to fathom that FSU did not discuss the lawsuit with the Florida AG before filing it. The FL AG could have used this complaint for the benefit of both Miami and FSU, but the complaint still remains weak as the facts surrounding the complaint are not as favorable as FSU implies.

Others should opine on their thoughts, too. Especially those in contracts and legal positions.

Courts don't keep an eye on what potential litigants do. The enforce the relevant laws. The GOR they signed is enforceable and they don't have much of a legal leg to stand on. All they can do is attempt to buy their way out. Bankrupt the whole state university system for all I care. It's not like they are doing much educating lately.

 

[atom58]

As a former resident of Panama City, I can assure you that the panhandle of Florida is basically south Alabama. Step one foot outside the city and it's pickup trucks side by side driving at 50 mph handing pistols to each other (an event I was in the truck for, to my horror).

Some truth there as to the "Panhandle" but FSU in the "Big Bend" area was always seen as more "liberal" than UF. They have/had the highest % of AFAM students of any State school for instance, and although it pains me to tell you this, "streaking" started there in the 1970s.

 

[Cuse181]

My no lawyer opinion, but having read whatever excerpts from the GOR that I could, I'm not sure what FSU thinks constitutes as a “failure to perform” and “restraint of trade.” So far as I can see the agreement is simple: we broadcast and you get paid. The payments have been seemingly paid in full and on time, fulfilling the required actions. As for restriction of trade, that would seemingly set a precedent that every ongoing exclusivity contract is void, I doubt any court in the country would set that precedent.

All in all, this is obviously a bid to push for a reduction in the exit fee to save the ACC legal fees but I have a hard time believing these fees would amount to anything more that 20-30M/year meaning fighting this out would be well worth the ACCs time

 

[HtownOrange]

Again you didn't answer the questions. Instead you create new questions and answered your own questions while avoiding mine.

The Big 12 announced in February that Texas and Oklahoma will forgo $100 million from the conference under an agreement that is allowing the schools to leave a year earlier than initially required. In response to recent questions from the USA TODAY Network, the conference said more than $80 million of that is based on money the schools will not get in 2024-25, the year after the move. The rest is attributed to cuts in full revenue shares for 2023-24 that Texas, Oklahoma and the rest of the Big 12’s continuing members will be taking to finance payments promised to four schools that joined the conference this summer.

The Big 12 wrote that the $100 million cited in the February statement is “an estimate based on financial distribution projections. Conference revenue derived from media rights contracts in (2024-25) will not decrease despite the early departures of OU and Texas. By leaving a year early both institutions forego (fiscal year 2024-25) distributions from the Big 12. The ($100 million) also includes (the schools’) shares of the reduced payouts this (fiscal year) that all 10 continuing members will forego as a result of expansion.”

Texas and Oklahoma also will leave behind a total of at least $13 million in NCAA basketball tournament money over a six-year span.


1. Can you show me an article that proves any of the above wrong?

2. If the above is correct, how is that not fuzzy math?

Roughly $80M of the $100M is money withheld for a season that they are not even participating in. That is like one leaving their job and their employer saying well if you leave now we won't pay you a salary for next year.

The rest of the money is also fuzzy math. Every B12 team agreed to a reduced share in order to bring on the four new schools. That is not unique to Texas and Oklahoma. And it is not a result of them leaving a year early. It was something agreed upon before the agreement to leave a year early was made. So how in the heck can one say that money was to leave a year early? They were getting hit for that whether they stayed or went.

And we are counting NCAA credits too? They have no right to that money so why include it?


In the end Texas gets a full share in 2023-24. Same for Oklahoma. The 8 left behind B12 schools will get roughly $4M more each in 2024-25 from ESPN (not Texas or Oklahoma). That sounds nice but when you take into account that in 2022-23 they made the same amount of money as in 2024-25, it really is a wash for them.

Please post links to official statements to support your points. Official statements are those posted by the parties themselves. I have done so.

 

[javadoc]

I skimmed the complaint. It is heavily one-sided and fails to include relevant facts which mitigate and /or prove FSU is a farce. Obviously, this is expected. FSU has far less to work with than their media releases and this complaint imply. The ACC will fight this and will likely file to object to the venue and jurisdiction based on the GOR referring to the bylaws, which if I recall, require suits to be filed in NC and apply NC law.

Anyway, the Florida courts are likely to side with FSU, to at least secure some documents and a possible ruling or two. IF the Bylaws require suits in NC, FSU does not appear to have substantive complaint in Florida and would likely lose the argument on an elevated appeal (they may win in the Florida courts but not likely to win the NC courts or at the SCOTUS because FSU willing agreed to the agreements and the facts are not in their favor, as implied in the complaint.).

I also skimmed it.

The only interesting Count(s) IMO are those alleging unlawful restraint of trade, because those are independent of whether the conference mismanaged its financial duties. They could bring down all GOR’s as applied to schools whose state laws track Florida’s.

I know it’s custom, but seeing FLORIDA STATE in all caps made me think, nice God complex.

Based on the fact pattern as alleged, I kept thinking, why aren’t they suing to be made whole as well? I’ll leave that to the lawyers here.

 

[HtownOrange]

Courts don't keep an eye on what potential litigants do. The enforce the relevant laws. The GOR they signed is enforceable and they don't have much of a legal leg to stand on. All they can do is attempt to buy their way out. Bankrupt the whole state university system for all I care. It's not like they are doing much educating lately.

Generally, that is true, but when there are sovereignty and/or Constitutional issues, the courts can and do take broader views. It may not be worded as such but state courts will craft a decision that amounts to "we will protect our state's interests".

I expect that each state, FL and NC will watch out for their state interests. I believe that the networks will go to the mat to defend the GOR otherwise their agreements mean nothing. Further, FSU can argue about the ACC all it wants, but ESPN holds the broadcast rights which cannot be taken away without due process.

I agree with your general assessment that the GOR is solid. If it was easy to break, FSU - and others - would have done so much sooner.

 

[HtownOrange]

Based on the fact pattern as alleged, I kept thinking, why aren’t they suing to be made whole as well? I’ll leave that to the lawyers here.

I suspect that it has to do with the fact that they willing signed the agreements and even pushed for the agreements. To argue FSU must be made whole would open a ready-made counter argument that FSU is making a frivolous claim. FSU knows that the ACC will use the facts that FSU signed each agreement and even pushed for the agreements, they can't want the court to closely scrutinize the facts that undercut their positions. Just a guess.

 

[HtownOrange]

Syracuse would’ve been in the ACC several years earlier if it hadn’t been for the governor of Virginia. The Virginia state government put pressure on UVA to vote against any expansion that didn’t include VaTech. So SU was left at the altar in round one. Never underestimate the ability of corrupt state governments to cause problems wherever they can.

Gov. Ann Richards did the same for Baylor getting into the Big 12, though she sacrifices the in-state public university (U of Houston) when doing so. Corruption is corruption.

 

[orlandoorange]

What other options does a school that wants to be competitive in football have? There's such a big gap in conference payouts going forward it will become more and more challenging for all ACC teams to compete.

The ACC made a long term deal to lock in rates and the game changed on them. It may or may not have been a sound decision at the time, but in hindsight it doesn't look like one.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Please post links to official statements to support your points. Official statements are those posted by the parties themselves. I have done so.

The statements I quoted came from the B12. Unless you are claiming that USA Today is lying and completely made up those email quotes from the B12.

Also none of your quotes confirm what constitutes the $100M. Mine does and in the end $160M exit fee + one year combined TV rights = $40M combined. They got off cheap.

 

[SUalldway]

What other options does a school that wants to be competitive in football have? There's such a big gap in conference payouts going forward it will become more and more challenging for all ACC teams to compete.

The ACC made a long term deal to lock in rates and the game changed on them. It may or may not have been a sound decision at the time, but in hindsight it doesn't look like one.

Looks like a sound decision to me. Poor FSU, they are upset they can't re-write history.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Can FSU work around the GOR?

If they left next year for the B1G:

- the ACC would still own FSU’s home games the next 12 years

- ESPN would now own 4-5 B1G games but lose 4 FSU ACC road games. Does that make them whole?

- FOX would own 4-5 FSU road games, add Florida to the BTN, and start to penetrate the South. Are they not happy?

- FSU wouldn’t be eligible for B1G TV money but…

- just because FSU isn’t in the ACC doesn’t mean they are not legally owed ACC TV money. If the ACC is profiting from FSU’s TV rights, do they not owe FSU for said rights?

- so if FSU does not buy back the rights, does the ACC not owe FSU roughly $400M over the next 12 years?

- FSU does owe roughly a $125 exit fee

That seems like a starting point for negotiations.


So if the above happens FSU makes ACC money but plays in the B1G. I don’t think it is worth it but it is an option?

 

[tipphill]

Personally, I wouldn't consider Tallahassee the Deep South. That's just me.

FSU got outbid for Jimbo's services not too long ago. FSU has some money, but they're far far from rich.

this is much bigger than jimbo

 

[kcsu]

I'm sure FSU back Channeled this and has a Florida judge in their pockets. Unfortunately for them the GOR specifically covers via DE law what they are attempting to use. The lawyers saw this potential loophole and the GOR was written to specifically make sure that the individual states for each school wouldn't come into play.