FSU vs The ACC

[kingtidge]

I think you underestimate the inherent difference between Pro and College sports in this country. The fan following of College sports more closely aligns to the English football leagues than it does the NFL. Small college towns etc.

Mark my words - if the P2 continue down this path of exclusion they will regret it.

Kinda but not really..

Most of the pro small potatoes teams in Euro soccer find themselves relegated into the lower leagues based on how much they are willing to spend and how successful (or unsuccessful) they are run as a club business.

However, the promotion/relegation system keeps the fan interest and you still have rabid fanbases in the lower leagues teams.

All the leagues still compete against each other in a couple intra-league cups / elimination tournaments each year.

But the promotion / relegation system, by default, is a system of HAVES (the 1st division teams) vs. the teams that HAVE LESS. It's baked into the cake.

And bigger clubs that have large fanbases and first tier stadiums/facilities but are poorly run and have been relegated from the first tier for any significant period of time...

Their fans bitch and complain... A lot... As they should, for being poorly run.

 

[HouClone]

People should learn from the NASL and USFL. The fastest way to kill off a league is to create a small cadre of teams that overpower everyone else. The everyone else eventually gets bored and will decide not to support the league. And it will happen if the P2 continues down this path. The difference between college and pro sports is that if you box out entire states and regions, those folks really won’t give a crap about the product. I mean personally, as it sits right now, I don’t watch the CFB playoff, because I could really give a crap about SEC or B1G teams for the most part. So in some cases we’re already there.

What keeps this thing sustainable and keeps people interested nationwide is inclusion, not exclusion. This isn’t the NFL.

Sadly, the higher football powers and tv guys don't believe this. They believe the average fan will still watch. Bill Hancock, former CFP executive director, said this on an interview with 365 Sports.

Patrick Crakes, former Fox executive, said a super league of the top brands is the future. He said that Europe's decision to abandon the super league soccer was just temporary.

Fortunately, Europe's media see the super league as damaging to the sport. BT Sport said, "believes the formation of a European Super League could have a damaging effect to the long term health of football in this country.”. Can you see ESPN saying this, "we believe super conferences could have long term damage to the health of college football."?

 

[upperdeck]

My question would be. if euro soccer was starting now and they say X teams you are in this league and Y teams you are in this league and Z teams you are in this league and so on. Would the teams in league 5-6-7 have a rabid fan base?

This is like saying IC has a fan base that compares to Syracuse?

once you relegate teams down levels from scratch they wont be on TV and people will care less.

 

[sufandu]

Sadly, the higher football powers and tv guys don't believe this. They believe the average fan will still watch. Bill Hancock, former CFP executive director, said this on an interview with 365 Sports.

Patrick Crakes, former Fox executive, said a super league of the top brands is the future. He said that Europe's decision to abandon the super league soccer was just temporary.

Fortunately, Europe's media see the super league as damaging to the sport. BT Sport said, "believes the formation of a European Super League could have a damaging effect to the long term health of football in this country.”. Can you see ESPN saying this, "we believe super conferences could have long term damage to the health of college football."?

The problem with the comparison is believing the super league is part of college football. We have a super league in football. It's called the NFL. The draw for people with regards to college sports isn't the same as pro. The farther they push it to being purely pro, the more they'll lose the average fan. It's amazing the powers that be don't understand this. Have they not ever been sports fans themselves?

If this progresses as far as many predict, I hope the NFL expands their TV coverage to Saturdays.

 

[HouClone]

With the rise of power of the Big 10 and SEC, you are seeing the fans of the schools, like me, that may be left out saying a super league or two large conferences are bad for the sport. What about the G5? We didn't seem to have an issue if they were left out. We all need to look in the mirror at ourselves if we were in that boat. I think a shared media deal of all conferences is the solution. It won't be equal granted but not the chasm between the Big 10/SEC and ACC/Big 12 or P4 and G5.

 

[Toga]

The problem with the comparison is believing the super league is part of college football. We have a super league in football. It's called the NFL. The draw for people with regards to college sports isn't the same as pro. The farther they push it to being purely pro, the more they'll lose the average fan. It's amazing the powers that be don't understand this. Have they not ever been sports fans themselves?

If this progresses as far as many predict, I hope the NFL expands their TV coverage to Saturdays.

Was about to post something similar. If anti trust issues were ever to be worked out, the NFL would eat college football's lunch on Saturdays.

 

[sufandu]

My question would be. if euro soccer was starting now and they say X teams you are in this league and Y teams you are in this league and Z teams you are in this league and so on. Would the teams in league 5-6-7 have a rabid fan base?

This is like saying IC has a fan base that compares to Syracuse?

once you relegate teams down levels from scratch they wont be on TV and people will care less.

The morons running the show think people will shift their interests to the teams at the highest levels, allowing them to make even more money. They don't get that if Syracuse isn't part of the show, I'll stop caring completely. I only care about other teams in so much as I can view them against my team. Nothing will make me care about Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State, etc. if my team isn't part of the fraternity. I'm sure most other college fans are the same way. There will be a few diehard sports nuts that will watch whatever is put in front of them, but not as many as they think.

 

[tep624]

Kinda but not really..

Most of the pro small potatoes teams in Euro soccer find themselves relegated into the lower leagues based on how much they are willing to spend and how successful (or unsuccessful) they are run as a club business.

However, the promotion/relegation system keeps the fan interest and you still have rabid fanbases in the lower leagues teams.

All the leagues still compete against each other in a couple intra-league cups / elimination tournaments each year.

But the promotion / relegation system, by default, is a system of HAVES (the 1st division teams) vs. the teams that HAVE LESS. It's baked into the cake.

And bigger clubs that have large fanbases and first tier stadiums/facilities but are poorly run and have been relegated from the first tier for any significant period of time...

Their fans bitch and complain... A lot... As they should, for being poorly run.

But see, Wrexham and what has happened there is exactly the point. If you have a willingness to invest then you can have access to the upper tiers and if you don’t, well then that’s on you.

But if you have tiers here and a relegation system, and the champion at a minimum of each tier has access to the playoff, then you have a model that is even fairer. If you invest to win your tier, you can compete for the national title. But after that year you need to keep investing because in order to get access to the playoff again (or higher odds at the playoff which the higher tiers will have) then you need to keep investing. No one is stopping Louisiana Lafayette or Coastal Carolina from dumping a ton of cash into their programs. All they need is one big money alum in some cases to do that (thinking Memphis / Fed Ex as an example)).

And if you don’t want to invest, then you stay in your tier. But you could also potentially have relegation / promotion between the bottom tier and FCS as well. That actually might be the coolest thing about it.

There’s a ton to figure out with a model like this but it ensures the long term health and viability of CFB.

 

[sufandu]

With the rise of power of the Big 10 and SEC, you are seeing the fans of the schools, like me, that may be left out saying a super league or two large conferences are bad for the sport. What about the G5? We didn't seem to have an issue if they were left out. We all need to look in the mirror at ourselves if we were in that boat. I think a shared media deal of all conferences is the solution. It won't be equal granted but not the chasm between the Big 10/SEC and ACC/Big 12 or P4 and G5.

You're right. I think we can look at the G5 as a reason as to why we don't want the chasm to keep widening. How many G5 fans put forth the effort to follow the P4 beyond headlines and scoreboards? What's the incentive to shift even more teams/fans into that group?

The cool kids think they're way cooler than they actually are.

 

[upperdeck]

Wrexham has been a great story, but they still have levels to go before they even make money. And what if all the investment they were still in the lower league, the hollywood guys still going to throw money away at it 3-4 yrs down the road?

if it was easy all the teams would be moving around. But the reality is most teams kinda stay at their level an support is local.

 

[sufandu]

But see, Wrexham and what has happened there is exactly the point. If you have a willingness to invest then you can have access to the upper tiers and if you don’t, well then that’s on you.

But if you have tiers here and a relegation system, and the champion at a minimum of each tier has access to the playoff, then you have a model that is even fairer. If you invest to win your tier, you can compete for the national title. But after that year you need to keep investing because in order to get access to the playoff again (or higher odds at the playoff which the higher tiers will have) then you need to keep investing. No one is stopping Louisiana Lafayette or Coastal Carolina from dumping a ton of cash into their programs. All they need is one big money alum in some cases to do that (thinking Memphis / Fed Ex as an example)).

And if you don’t want to invest, then you stay in your tier. But you could also potentially have relegation / promotion between the bottom tier and FCS as well. That actually might be the coolest thing about it.

There’s a ton to figure out with a model like this but it ensures the long term health and viability of CFB.

But it's not always about whether some want to invest. It's whether some have the ability to, so actually there are forces stopping Louisiana Lafayette and Coastal Carolina from dumping a ton of cash into their programs. And the way things are now, the teams at the top make the most money, so they have the ability to keep investing more than those below them. If we want college sports to survive, there needs to be some semblance of evening out of the playing field. The NFL has it down pat. Green bay would never have a chance if it were run like college football.

Will things ever be completely even? Of course not. What needs to happen is a halting of the widening of the chasm.

 

[tep624]

But it's not always about whether some want to invest. It's whether some have the ability to, so actually there are forces stopping Louisiana Lafayette and Coastal Carolina from dumping a ton of cash into their programs. And the way things are now, the teams at the top make the most money, so they have the ability to keep investing more than those below them. If we want college sports to survive, there needs to be some semblance of evening out of the playing field. The NFL has it down pat. Green bay would never have a chance if it were run like college football.

Will things ever be completely even? Of course not. What needs to happen is a halting of the widening of the chasm.

If you have access to the playoff from every tier, and every school has an opportunity to determine their own destiny through investment, then that’s fair enough. Having one guaranteed slot for the G5 for example is not fair. What i proposed is that the top tier (30 teams) has access to 6 slots while the next 3 tiers (90 teams) have access to 6 slots annually with an ability to be promoted. Thats about as fair as it gets.

 

[HouClone]

The fans see the "haves" and the "have nots" as damaging the sport. We voice it on forums mostly. We are the minority as most fans aren't on forums. Where are the influential voices in the sport speaking up and making noise, not a whimper? Why hasn't a Saban type put out an editorial piece in the New York Times about this?

Edward Murrow had the guts to put an editorial piece on McCarthyism when everybody else was afraid. It helped stop McCarthyism. Would be nice to see somebody step up on the college athletics revenue gap ruining the sport.

 

[Hoo's That]

If you're interested in the history of the USFL--and why it went away--check out "Small Potatoes: Who Killed the USFL?" It was the very first "30 for 30" documentary.

Oh I know who killed it

Every time I hear this song, I think of that show and the answer to the question it poses.

 

[WoadBlue]

The fans see the "haves" and the "have nots" as damaging the sport. We voice it on forums mostly. We are the minority as most fans aren't on forums. Where are the influential voices in the sport speaking up and making noise, not a whimper? Why hasn't a Saban type put out an editorial piece in the New York Times about this?

Edward Murrow had the guts to put an editorial piece on McCarthyism when everybody else was afraid. It helped stop McCarthyism. Would be nice to see somebody step up on the college athletics revenue gap ruining the sport.

Those making Big Bucks do not intend to risk that. So they remain silent even when they know better.

 

[kirbivore]

People should learn from the NASL and USFL. The fastest way to kill off a league is to create a small cadre of teams that overpower everyone else. Then everyone else eventually gets bored and will decide not to support the league. And it will happen if the P2 continues down this path. The difference between college and pro sports is that if you box out entire states and regions, those folks really won’t give a crap about the product. I mean personally, as it sits right now, I don’t watch the CFB playoff, because I could really give a crap about SEC or B1G teams for the most part. So in some cases we’re already there.

What keeps this thing sustainable and keeps people interested nationwide is inclusion, not exclusion. This isn’t the NFL.

Too lazy to fact check this but I'm pretty sure the lowest rated title game since 2000 was the Bama-LSU one circa late 2000s early 2010s.

 

[tep624]

Too lazy to fact check this but I'm pretty sure the lowest rated title game since 2000 was the Bama-LSU one circa late 2000s early 2010s.

The market should dictate the product, not the other way around. That’s a recipe for disaster.

 

[HouClone]

Too lazy to fact check this but I'm pretty sure the lowest rated title game since 2000 was the Bama-LSU one circa late 2000s early 2010s.

It was 2011. Okie State lost a late road November game in 2 OT ranked as #2. They blew out Oklahoma the next week in Bedlam. But it still wasn't enough as 'Bama remained #2. Nobody was happy about a rematch, thus the change to the CFP with 4 teams.

 

[WoadBlue]

The market should dictate the product, not the other way around. That’s a recipe for disaster.

What is 'the mrket'? The actual market is something owned by somebody for the purpose of selling. There is nil abstract market that works to make things fair and reasonable.

 

[sufandu]

If you have access to the playoff from every tier, and every school has an opportunity to determine their own destiny through investment, then that’s fair enough. Having one guaranteed slot for the G5 for example is not fair. What i proposed is that the top tier (30 teams) has access to 6 slots while the next 3 tiers (90 teams) have access to 6 slots annually with an ability to be promoted. Thats about as fair as it gets.

Not true. Access to the playoff plays such a small part in a school's ability to invest in itself. It is dwarfed by access to TV money and wealthy boosters.

 

[sufandu]

The market should dictate the product, not the other way around. That’s a recipe for disaster.

You have to have leaders that are proactive rather than reactive to the market. By the time you react to the market, the product is ruined and takes a generation or more to recover. Sports are not the same as other products.

 

[kingtidge]

But see, Wrexham and what has happened there is exactly the point. If you have a willingness to invest then you can have access to the upper tiers and if you don’t, well then that’s on you.

But if you have tiers here and a relegation system, and the champion at a minimum of each tier has access to the playoff, then you have a model that is even fairer. If you invest to win your tier, you can compete for the national title. But after that year you need to keep investing because in order to get access to the playoff again (or higher odds at the playoff which the higher tiers will have) then you need to keep investing. No one is stopping Louisiana Lafayette or Coastal Carolina from dumping a ton of cash into their programs. All they need is one big money alum in some cases to do that (thinking Memphis / Fed Ex as an example)).

And if you don’t want to invest, then you stay in your tier. But you could also potentially have relegation / promotion between the bottom tier and FCS as well. That actually might be the coolest thing about it.

There’s a ton to figure out with a model like this but it ensures the long term health and viability of CFB.

It ensures the big teams with the most money sit a top the pyramid.

The pecking order is very static at the top.

Wrexham?? Hell, I am a Sunderland fan and they are the posterchild of a huge club with a sham series of owners that have run the club poorly and relegated the club into the 3rd tier for 5 years.

 

[tep624]

It ensures the big teams with the most money sit a top the pyramid.

The pecking order is very static at the top.

What’s better - a system where the big teams sit at the top and there’s little to no access or a system where the big teams sit at the top and there is some level of guaranteed access?

That’s where we are now.

 

[kingtidge]

What’s better - a system where the big teams sit at the top and there’s little to no access or a system where the big teams sit at the top and there is some level of guaranteed access?

That’s where we are now.

So if we play our cards right, we can finish in the top 20, avoid relegation, and stare at the playoffs from the outside looking in?? (Of course in Euro soccer, no playoffs but instead, Champion's league or Europa league tournament spoils to the tier 1 league top performers/big money clubs.)

That's the best to hope for?

That's about the best you can do consistently if you aren't a top pyramid club... Settle in as second fiddle club or program and hope for the occasional year or two where you are on the fringes of success.

There's the occasional lighting in a bottle team from the second fiddle group for a season here or there, but that is luck as much as anything else and certainly not sustainable.

That's the euro promotion/relegation model in reality

 

[tep624]

So if we play our cards right, we can finish in the top 20, avoid relegation, and stare at the playoffs from the outside looking in??

That's the best to hope for?

That's about the best you can do consistently... Settle as second fiddle club or program.

There's the occasional lighting in a bottle team the second fiddle group for a season here or there, but that is luck as much as anything else and certainly not sustainable.

That's the euro promotion/relegation model in reality

Well I mean I wouldn’t propose the euro model as is because it doesn’t work for this. That’s being used as the example because it’s the only practical example of a relegation system.

I would have 4 quadrants of 32 teams. Each quadrant broken up into 4 divisions for purposes of regional travel and scheduling. You only play during the season and up to the title game amongst teams from your quadrant. Quadrant 1 would get 6 audit bids to the playoff - 2 for the quadrant championship teams and 4 at large for the highest ranked teams. Quadrant 2 would get 3 audit bids (2 teams in the championship game and 1 at large), Quadrant 3 would get 2 auto bids (2 teams in the championship) and Quadrant 4 would get one (Champion only). This allows the playoff itself to have a mix / feel of the NCAA basketball tourney where you have David vs Goliath matchups etc and gives guaranteed access to the playoff to all of the quadrants every season. And also you have the opportunity to expand the playoff and bids incrementally to all quadrants as well.

After playoff / bowl season, the two teams in each of the 3 lower quadrants are promoted to the next quadrant and the bottom 2 teams in each of the top 3 quadrants are relegated. Divisions in each quadrant are then realigned based on geographic sense every season. As an additional variable, you could have the top 2 FCS teams move up into the bottom quadrant and effectively the 2 worst teams in FBS drop to FCS. I’m not really married to that concept but it is interesting.

The conferences are antiquated and idiotic at this point. They make zero sense. Just blow the system up and rebuild it in a logical fashion. It doesn’t have to be what I laid out but it’s obvious that what we’re experiencing now is far from ideal to have to have conference musical chairs every 5 years.