FSU vs The ACC

[kcsu]

Actually they do, because it devalues the ACC which they have a whole network dedicated to.

ESPN wants the ACC strong, but not too strong that it challenges is B10 SEC.

ESPN want the ACC to remain in 3rd position. The SEC and Big 10 have always been and will remain the top two leagues. That isn't going to change in my lifetime unless there is a complete remake of college football. The Big 12 for all the bravado BS that PT Barnum spews will always be in the fourth slot unless they get picked apart. If we are smart, we will be making a big play for Big 12 members as we do have a chance to take them down.

 

[HtownOrange]

The obvious that you miss here is that ESPN losses nothing if FSU, Clemson, UNC etc. were to be moved to the SEC. They would all still be exclusive to ESPN.

ESPN has done nothing to stop any of this. I think that ESPN, perhaps led by Sankey and the SEC being persuasive, assumed that ESPN would keep all the most valuable ACC members by the SEC taking them. And what they have discovered is that things are not like that at all. Not even for FSU. FSU has caught the ACC bug about improved academic stature, and all kinds of people with power at FSU would take BT over SEC for that reason.

So now we have ESPN having to face such things knowing that ESON has been playing hardball against the ACC in the name of cost cutting which has led to all this mess that could mean gutting of the ACC. Just stupid all around by ESPN.

Respectfully, you have missed the point that if the ACC barn doors are open it will be a free for all. Fox would not pass on an opportunity to knock ESPN out of the northeast in collegiate sports for decades, likely a cripple blow to ESPN. Fox would likely snag Pitt and SU, both already vetted and considered prior to joining the ACC. Even if BC stayed in the ACC it would be watered down. The SEC and B1G will have taken 9-12 teams.

Don't forget, they are just beginning to realize they need cannon fodder and middle of the pack teams, especially if they plan to go to the P2 route.

ESPN is not likely to destroy one property for the other, that is the definition of tortious interference as the ACC and SEC have separate interests . ESPN cannot be caught with their pants down or everything gets exposed. The chances that ESPN are giving the SEC the nod and wink approval to move FSU and Clemson is minute, the legal implications alone are not worth the thought. Further, the losses to a profitable entity would make the entity, the ACC, worth less than it's present value, possibly less than the Big 12. Again, not a financially sound decision, which would get several big wigs within ESPN fired.

This, it is highly unlikely that ESPN does anything to destroy the ACC. They lose in the Big picture on so many fronts that it is not worth the risks.

The SEC does not rule ESPN, ESPN is the driver in that relationship. The concept that the SEC can demand ESPN to do its bidding is out of whack, the concept would prove extortion on some levels. ESPN makes lots of money off the SEC and will listen to the SEC but ESPN is not likely to destroy the ACC to benefit the SEC nor to give up territory to the B1G.

 

[Hoo's That]

ESPN want the ACC to remain in 3rd position. The SEC and Big 10 have always been and will remain the top two leagues. That isn't going to change in my lifetime unless there is a complete remake of college football. The Big 12 for all the bravado BS that PT Barnum spews will always be in the fourth slot unless they get picked apart. If we are smart, we will be making a big play for Big 12 members as we do have a chance to take them down.

It's coming. It's just a question of "when," not "if." The "fun" thing will be watching the reaction the of fanbases of schools who think they're in to being left out.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

ESPN doing anything to prop up the Big 12 is ed business. The BIUg 12 is mostly Fox. So the best interests of ESPN are to help the ACC become a larger league at the expense of the Big 12 as the next Big 12 deal draws near.

I have read several places that Utah has not signed anything for long term. If that is so, then it explains all that talk over the late spring and early summer that Utah was exploring leaving for the ACC. If Utah has done that ESPN should have made it happen by agreeing to redo the SACC contract favorably for the ACC. That 1 move would make it certain that any Big 12 team that could get into the ACC would make the move as the old Big 12 deal expires. That would allow ESPN to create a Super Sized ACC to advertise as the national conference rivaling the BT in that regard as well as in non-revenue sports.

I think such planning by ESPN would include getting KU into the SEC, because that would greatly help with SEC basketball TV numbers and power ranking. I think that the SEC then would lean hard to making Colorado its 18th because of its Big 8 days and its being the only school in its state that would be in a Major conference.

ESPN must program for all time zones and sports. That means among other things that ESPN needs as many schools as it can get into Major conferences that it broadcasts which are located in MST or PST. That would allow ESPN to arrange Major college football and basketball late night starts (per EST and CST) for both Friday and Saturday, if the ACC gets Utah, Arizona, and Arizona ST while the SEC takes Colorado.

That would leave ESPN with total control over major college sports in MST and with an important presence in CA, which would keep the BT from controlling the West. Do that and then also take a direct shot at the BT by getting Cincinnati into the ACC, and ESPN will have outflanked Fox and the BT.

Wouldn’t make sense for the ACC to take both AZ schools. Would be better off taking Baylor or TCU. Or the SEC could take ASU, who > Colorado, with the ACC getting Colorado instead.

 

[TerryD]

It's all good!

I find ND's football independence hang-up both noble and odd. I mean, good on them for being maybe the only school in college football that truly values its history and what that means for its brand.

On the other hand, ND is effectively in the "5/8ths of the ACC + Navy + USC" Conference. Their independence is mostly an illusion in terms of year-to-year scheduling since they play the same 7 games every season. One more game of flexibility than other ACC schools, woohoo!

ND "chooses" to play Navy and USC every year. Those are "OOC" games, so to speak.

So are the other five non-ACC opponent games that ND plays. Those are chosen/scheduled due to the flexibility of being an independent.

Only five games a year are mandated as 'conference" games for ND, leaving seven of them for flexibility, not one.

 

[TerryD]

ND is not going to throw any lifeline to BC or Syracuse or Pitt or any other school.

Has any school that changed conferences during realignment ever said:

"Wait, we will not move unless you throw this other school a lifeline. If you don't take them too, then forget about us joining at all". ??

I know that Texas/Oklahoma and USC/UCLA came in pairs. Not sure any were "lifelines", though.

 

[JRHEETER]

Has any school that changed conferences during realignment ever said:

"Wait, we will not move unless you throw this other school a lifeline. If you don't take them too, then forget about us joining at all". ??

I know that Texas/Oklahoma and USC/UCLA came in pairs. Not sure any were "lifelines", though.

Texas I believe said they wouldn’t come unless they brought Oklahoma too.

 

[DPCuse]

Has any school that changed conferences during realignment ever said:

"Wait, we will not move unless you throw this other school a lifeline. If you don't take them too, then forget about us joining at all". ??

I know that Texas/Oklahoma and USC/UCLA came in pairs. Not sure any were "lifelines", though.

True but ND could probably make almost any demand they wanted.

 

[elimunelson]

Has any school that changed conferences during realignment ever said:

"Wait, we will not move unless you throw this other school a lifeline. If you don't take them too, then forget about us joining at all". ??

I know that Texas/Oklahoma and USC/UCLA came in pairs. Not sure any were "lifelines", though.

ND has a vested interest in keeping the northeast a viable eyeball location for football. If Syracuse and BC decide to fold up shop or become a UMass/Holy Cross level of minor league football, net/net it's not good for ND (not deathknell bad but hurts their brand) in the NY/Boston area. I think it's smart for ND to stay somewhat aligned with the two bigger brands in this side of the country.

No idea if ND feels this way but it seems logical to me

 

[Scooch]

ND "chooses" to play Navy and USC every year. Those are "OOC" games, so to speak.

So are the other five non-ACC opponent games that ND plays. Those are chosen/scheduled due to the flexibility of being an independent.

Only five games a year are mandated as 'conference" games for ND, leaving seven of them for flexibility, not one.

These are distinctions without a difference, IMHO. ND has been "choosing" to play Navy and USC every year for how long now? Decades and decades? They're a fixture on your schedule.

And you agreed to a fixed 5 ACC games every season. That's 5/8ths of every other ACC member.

Add them up and you have 7 games on your schedule that are predetermined. You get one extra game of flexibility than every other ACC and Big 12 team (2 extra than SEC and B1G).

I'm not begrudging it. But to pretend otherwise is kinda silly.

 

[elimunelson]

These are distinctions without a difference, IMHO. ND has been "choosing" to play Navy and USC every year for how long now? Decades and decades? They're a fixture on your schedule.

And you agreed to a fixed 5 ACC games every season. That's 5/8ths of every other ACC member.

Add them up and you have 7 games on your schedule that are predetermined. You get one extra game of flexibility than every other ACC and Big 12 team (2 extra than SEC and B1G).

I'm not begrudging it. But to pretend otherwise is kinda silly.

it's a brand thing scooch. I see Terry's point and I see your point. ND loves to promote independence even if it means 1/2 of what it meant 20 years ago.

ND gave up 5 games (of which there's traditional rivals in the banana stand like BC, Stanford (funny how that worked out), Pitt, Miami/Syracuse to a lesser extent to get access to the other ACC stuff.

In the end, distinction without a difference but that distinction is still the ND brand.

 

[WoadBlue]

ND has a vested interest in keeping the northeast a viable eyeball location for football. If Syracuse and BC decide to fold up shop or become a UMass/Holy Cross level of minor league football, net/net it's not good for ND (not deathknell bad but hurts their brand) in the NY/Boston area. I think it's smart for ND to stay somewhat aligned with the two bigger brands in this side of the country.

No idea if ND feels this way but it seems logical to me

ND has no meaningful vested interest in anything northeastern because the northeast for all things Major CFB is decidedly less than it was even in 1990, which was much less than it was in 1960. Just the Cincinnati TV market will produce at least as much football talent as all New England plus all NY state. And the only large groups of viewers of CFB living in those states are either ND or Penn St fans. And both are long accepting that their favorite CFB team very rarely play in their home areas.

Times have changed immensely for CFB. That means they have changed for ND. What ND truly needs from football independence (being able to boast about being too rich and powerful to need a conference in football is not a need) is not the same as those needs were in 1970. Today areas that have high concentrations of top recruits are the South, the Midwest, and CA. The areas that have the most passionate CFB fans are the South and midwest.

As South Bend is perfectly placed in the midwest close to IL, OH, and MI, ND has basically no needs to focus on anything midwestern because Home Games against any foes deliver that. So in terms of scheduling ND needs to play teams from and in the South and CA. But not the northeast. ND's needs are where the most D1 CFB recruits and the largest number and most passionate TV watching CFB fans live.

 

[WoadBlue]

True but ND could probably make almost any demand they wanted.

ND could not make demands from BT or SEC. because those leagues are simply far too rich and powerful. It could make demands of the ACC. The ACC would have to accept almost any ND demand in order to secure itself permanently as a Major Conference.

 

[Scooch]

it's a brand thing scooch. I see Terry's point and I see your point. ND loves to promote independence even if it means 1/2 of what it meant 20 years ago.

ND gave up 5 games (of which there's traditional rivals in the banana stand like BC, Stanford (funny how that worked out), Pitt, Miami/Syracuse to a lesser extent to get access to the other ACC stuff.

In the end, distinction without a difference but that distinction is still the ND brand.

I get it.

If I were the ACC back when they set the ND football scheduling agreement (or after they agreed to let them play in 2020), I would have included a deal term that saw them being included in the weekly conference standings. But flagged with an asterisk that said "*Notre Dame plays a modified conference schedule and is not eligible to play in the ACC Championship."

That'd be good branding for the conference.

 

[sutomcat]

This thread is about the ACC vs FSU but let's talk about ACC vs Clemson just a bit.

Clemson has already spent over a million dollars pursuing their lawsuit against the ACC.

Clemson’s legal bills in ACC lawsuit top $1 million

The Tigers, like the Seminoles, have sued the ACC and been sued by the conference.

www.tampabay.com

Clemson’s legal bills in its ongoing, dueling lawsuits with the ACC have already topped $1 million.

Since March, invoices from the Tigers’ outside attorneys total $1,001,124.53, according to documents obtained by the Tampa Bay Times through a public-records request. That figure includes more than $17,000 in expenses, like filing fees and mileage. The smallest itemized expense included was $15.55 for parking.

The invoices cover 1,884.2 hours of work by attorneys and paralegals. That averages to about $522 per hour.

Clemson is not using tax money or tuition fees to pay the bills. Instead, the school is using athletics money from ticket sales and TV revenue to pay the rates approved by the state.

The rest is from IPTAY, the Tigers’ separate athletic fundraising group. That money is coming from private, unrestricted donations not earmarked for anything specific (like scholarships).

Though the invoices started in March — the month Clemson and the ACC sued each other — work began earlier.

Emails previously included in the litigation by the ACC show attorneys for Clemson and the league discussed an agreement not to sue each other in January and February. A Tigers spokesperson said Thursday that any outside representation before March was with IPTAY, not the school.

The invoices are from the 2024 calendar year, but they’re split across the 2023-24 and 2024-25 fiscal years. Four agreements filed with the South Carolina Attorney General’s Office authorize up to $975,000 total for expenses in the 2024-25 fiscal year (which began July 1). Those agreements are with the law firms Ropes & Gray, Nelson Mullins Riley & Scarborough, Willson Jones Carter & Baxley, and Parry Law.
...

If Clemson is in over a million, how much has FSU spent so far? Are they already over $2 million dollars chasing windmills? I think so.

 

[HtownOrange]

This thread is about the ACC vs FSU but let's talk about ACC vs Clemson just a bit.

Clemson has already spent over a million dollars pursuing their lawsuit against the ACC.

Clemson’s legal bills in ACC lawsuit top $1 million

The Tigers, like the Seminoles, have sued the ACC and been sued by the conference.

www.tampabay.com

Clemson’s legal bills in its ongoing, dueling lawsuits with the ACC have already topped $1 million.

Since March, invoices from the Tigers’ outside attorneys total $1,001,124.53, according to documents obtained by the Tampa Bay Times through a public-records request. That figure includes more than $17,000 in expenses, like filing fees and mileage. The smallest itemized expense included was $15.55 for parking.

The invoices cover 1,884.2 hours of work by attorneys and paralegals. That averages to about $522 per hour.

Clemson is not using tax money or tuition fees to pay the bills. Instead, the school is using athletics money from ticket sales and TV revenue to pay the rates approved by the state.

The rest is from IPTAY, the Tigers’ separate athletic fundraising group. That money is coming from private, unrestricted donations not earmarked for anything specific (like scholarships).

Though the invoices started in March — the month Clemson and the ACC sued each other — work began earlier.

Emails previously included in the litigation by the ACC show attorneys for Clemson and the league discussed an agreement not to sue each other in January and February. A Tigers spokesperson said Thursday that any outside representation before March was with IPTAY, not the school.

The invoices are from the 2024 calendar year, but they’re split across the 2023-24 and 2024-25 fiscal years. Four agreements filed with the South Carolina Attorney General’s Office authorize up to $975,000 total for expenses in the 2024-25 fiscal year (which began July 1). Those agreements are with the law firms Ropes & Gray, Nelson Mullins Riley & Scarborough, Willson Jones Carter & Baxley, and Parry Law.
...

If Clemson is in over a million, how much has FSU spent so far? Are they already over $2 million dollars chasing windmills? I think so.

Great find! Once Floridians see what is being spent, they will want to know where the money is coming from. Clemson was wise to get this info out and deny it is from academic sources and includes IPTAY monies. People will still wonder how the money could be wasted on a fool's errand and not used elsewhere more wisely. As they should.

I hope the ACC withholds payments or at least legal expenses from FSU and Clemson for this fiasco. If they don't the AcCC will face more lawsuits.

 

[NKR1978]

This thread is about the ACC vs FSU but let's talk about ACC vs Clemson just a bit.

Clemson has already spent over a million dollars pursuing their lawsuit against the ACC.

Clemson’s legal bills in ACC lawsuit top $1 million

The Tigers, like the Seminoles, have sued the ACC and been sued by the conference.

www.tampabay.com

Clemson’s legal bills in its ongoing, dueling lawsuits with the ACC have already topped $1 million.

Since March, invoices from the Tigers’ outside attorneys total $1,001,124.53, according to documents obtained by the Tampa Bay Times through a public-records request. That figure includes more than $17,000 in expenses, like filing fees and mileage. The smallest itemized expense included was $15.55 for parking.

The invoices cover 1,884.2 hours of work by attorneys and paralegals. That averages to about $522 per hour.

Clemson is not using tax money or tuition fees to pay the bills. Instead, the school is using athletics money from ticket sales and TV revenue to pay the rates approved by the state.

The rest is from IPTAY, the Tigers’ separate athletic fundraising group. That money is coming from private, unrestricted donations not earmarked for anything specific (like scholarships).

Though the invoices started in March — the month Clemson and the ACC sued each other — work began earlier.

Emails previously included in the litigation by the ACC show attorneys for Clemson and the league discussed an agreement not to sue each other in January and February. A Tigers spokesperson said Thursday that any outside representation before March was with IPTAY, not the school.

The invoices are from the 2024 calendar year, but they’re split across the 2023-24 and 2024-25 fiscal years. Four agreements filed with the South Carolina Attorney General’s Office authorize up to $975,000 total for expenses in the 2024-25 fiscal year (which began July 1). Those agreements are with the law firms Ropes & Gray, Nelson Mullins Riley & Scarborough, Willson Jones Carter & Baxley, and Parry Law.
...

If Clemson is in over a million, how much has FSU spent so far? Are they already over $2 million dollars chasing windmills? I think so.

Billable hours always wins.

 

[Hoo's That]

Great find! Once Floridians see what is being spent, they will want to know where the money is coming from. Clemson was wise to get this info out and deny it is from academic sources and includes IPTAY monies. People will still wonder how the money could be wasted on a fool's errand and not used elsewhere more wisely. As they should.

I hope the ACC withholds payments or at least legal expenses from FSU and Clemson for this fiasco. If they don't the AcCC will face more lawsuits.

It may (and should) be against SC law for them to use state money for anything connected to athletics. The fact that Texas, Oklahoma, and the Pac-12 schools waited until the expiration of their respective GoRs to move should have been a signal to those dummies to wait, too. Texas and Oklahoma were extremely lucky that the Big XII decided to let them leave early in exchange for the heavy fee. The conference didn't have to do that.

 

[orangecuse]

True but ND could probably make almost any demand they wanted.

IMO, quite interesting really nowadays considering ND hasn't been relatively relevant in the realm of regularly playing for championships, et al as their last one was in 1988. And, being a relatively small private Catholic school, in a nation where the Catholic Church has seen considerable decline since its last championship as well. Additionally, located in an area that is, let's just say, not that desirable part of the country.

 

[phreddie]

IMO, quite interesting really nowadays considering ND hasn't been relatively relevant in the realm of regularly playing for championships, et al as their last one was in 1988. And, being a relatively small private Catholic school, in a nation where the Catholic Church has seen considerable decline since its last championship as well. Additionally, located in an area that is, let's just say, not that desirable part of the country.

All those things are irrelevant when you're talking about Notre Dame. The Yankees and Cowboys haven't won anything in decades, and they still outdraw all others (for example).

 

[HRE Otto IV]

IMO, quite interesting really nowadays considering ND hasn't been relatively relevant in the realm of regularly playing for championships, et al as their last one was in 1988. And, being a relatively small private Catholic school, in a nation where the Catholic Church has seen considerable decline since its last championship as well. Additionally, located in an area that is, let's just say, not that desirable part of the country.

Take a look at the Top HS football teams and there are still plenty of Catholic schools. That still helps ND recruiting despite the lack of success.

 

[orangecuse]

Take a look at the Top HS football teams and there are still plenty of Catholic schools. That still helps ND recruiting despite the lack of success.

GM once had approximately 60% of the market share...nowadays their percentage of same is in the teens. Folks (of course) still purchase GM vehicles, however, GM's clout, et al it once possessed is nowhere close to when it was dominant. That's my main point and why I find it, 'interesting,' that ND can still get away, prance around today, etc. as if they are top dog, etc.

I find the word "illusion" of what another poster chose to use relative to their true "independence" spot on, just as what their clout and significance is nowadays in the overall realm, and yet, still be able to pull it off.

 

[CuseIsGodsTeam]

ND doesn’t care about the Northeast but frequently plays games in Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park against Northeast teams.

 

[shantydaze]

Great find! Once Floridians see what is being spent, they will want to know where the money is coming from. Clemson was wise to get this info out and deny it is from academic sources and includes IPTAY monies. People will still wonder how the money could be wasted on a fool's errand and not used elsewhere more wisely. As they should.

I hope the ACC withholds payments or at least legal expenses from FSU and Clemson for this fiasco. If they don't the AcCC will face more lawsuits.

FSU's athletic department is a private, non-profit corporation separate from the university. I know the University of Wisconsin has a similar set-up and I would be surprised if this were not true of numerous public universities as it may shield the athletic departments from FOIA requests and state oversight.

 

[Hoo's That]

ND doesn’t care about the Northeast but frequently plays games in Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park against Northeast teams.

ND wants to play games on both coasts and Texas both for recruitng (Texas) and the chance for alums and fans to go to the games. The largest concentrations of ND alums are on both coasts and Chicago, which contributes to trying to avoid joining the B1G.