Gottlieb thread

[cusetown1]

credit cards?

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

What part of agreeing that they don't seem like a top-2 team is critical? I think you are the one being hyper sensitive.

So who's #2 to you then? UNC? A UNC team that lost by 30 at FSU? A team that has lost four games, and has looked lackluster in many others this year? Sure we have warts, I'd never deny that. I've simply never heard you ONCE say something positive about this team. And I wonder "why is he a fan if he never sees anything good?" Which is why I asked the last question to you. I'm willing to see the warts and agree they are there, but this team keeps winning. They may not win the NCAA's, the tourney is a crap shoot, but they have turned in winning performance after winning performance. I guess I see you as hyper critical, if at 31-1 you can't find something good to say.

 

[cusetown1]

So who's #2 to you then? UNC? A UNC team that lost by 30 at FSU? A team that has lost four games, and has looked lackluster in many others this year? Sure we have warts, I'd never deny that. I've simply never heard you ONCE say something positive about this team. And I wonder "why is he a fan if he never sees anything good?" Which is why I asked the last question to you. I'm willing to see the warts and agree they are there, but this team keeps winning. They may not win the NCAA's, the tourney is a crap shoot, but they have turned in winning performance after winning performance. I guess I see you as hyper critical, if at 31-1 you can't find something good to say.

I love match ups with UNC and UK. Just not the smaller teams that control the clock.

 

[LAOrange]

somehow i included my response in the quote.. lets try that again

How have those other teams looked elite? It's all perception based on the name of the opponent... UNC beat a duke team which has been getting criticized for weeks. Duke couldn't hit a 3.. and unc ran away with the game. Now they're elite. ha.. it happens every year with unc. MSU just got crushed didn't they? UK's conf blows.. but that's ok. Then there's the Cuse who's only loss is without their starting center who makes a very big difference, as seen in the si.com article. These guys are a joke... we are truly underated. good for us though.

It's not just this. The hypocrisy is overwhelming. He says UConn is good enough to make it the third weekend yet we beat them in Storrs in MSG and three times and our only good away is Florida (whom everybody beats). He's a tool.

 

[cusetown1]

It's not just this. The hypocrisy is overwhelming. He says UConn is good enough to make it the third weekend yet we beat them in Storrs in MSG and three times and our only good away is Florida (whom everybody beats). He's a tool.

and for reasons like this he annoys me. I could really careless if he likes UNC and UK better.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

I think it is a valid point . . . toss out the RPI and the SOS and just look at the schedule . . . it is relatively weak. Only three games vs. opponents in the conversation for Top 4 seeds (Marquette, Georgetown, Florida) and they were all narrow wins at home.

Only 5 games against tournament teams in road/neutral settings, one of them a loss and 3 against teams likely be in the bottom half of the bracket (2 vs. UConn, 1 vs. Cincy), the other against a mid-seed Louisville - and all fairly narrow victories.

There is certainly reason to question whether the SU record is a bit hollow. You don't have to agree with him, but you don't have to be biased to raise that question.

Couldn't it also be said that every one of those teams knows Syracuse inside and out and regardless of record plays us well? You could say the same thing with UK's close wins against Vandy. The word is out that we don't handle slow it down games real well. Get out in transition and this team dominates. Slow it down and they beat you by 5. I look at the match ups and think it would be a close damn game against either UK or UNC. I just don't think there is a chasm between any of these teams right now. It would be a war. I also would say that I usually think the Big East is a bit overrated. This year, I think it's a little underrated. No great teams (other than us) but a lot of nasty defensive teams that will make life hell for some schools in the NCAA's.

 

[Orangezoo]

UK.. beat UNC (early on) and Kansas (early on) One at home and the other neutral. They have beaten 1 4 or 5 seed on the Road in UF. I think its fair to say their record stands just as hollow as ours by that logic. Thats not to say if we had done the same in a weaker league our argument would not be congruent to the fact of who we beat early in the year, with that said lets be honest here.. we have beaten many hungry teams in the latter half of the year. UK has done the same. Throw RPI's out.. look at the talent, coaching and think about how much more difficult a win in Feb/March is than a November/December Win. Teams are gelling, and players know their roles. Conference foes know even the best team's weaknesses. It matters none.. this team knows how to win.. this is a great .. get back into the flow type of game.. get some big Mo going into the NCAA's.. Big game for Dirty.. you know what you have with CJ/Scoop/Kris... good to see Dirty/Dion have good games.

 

[cusetown1]

[QUOTEThe word is out that we don't handle slow it down games real well.][/QUOTE]
and good luck getting either UNC or UK to play one of those games.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

[QUOTEThe word is out that we don't handle slow it down games real well.]

and good luck getting either UNC or UK to play one of those games.[/quote]
I don't think UNC could beat UK head to head, but I would actually be more scared to play UNC in the dance. They are a LOAD on the boards, and would be a difficult out. I actually think match up wise, we'd do better against UK than UNC. All three teams are good.

 

[moqui]

Couldn't it also be said that every one of those teams knows Syracuse inside and out and regardless of record plays us well? You could say the same thing with UK's close wins against Vandy. The word is out that we don't handle slow it down games real well. Get out in transition and this team dominates. Slow it down and they beat you by 5. I look at the match ups and think it would be a close damn game against either UK or UNC. I just don't think there is a chasm between any of these teams right now. It would be a war. I also would say that I usually think the Big East is a bit overrated. This year, I think it's a little underrated. No great teams (other than us) but a lot of nasty defensive teams that will make life hell for some schools in the NCAA's.

as I said, you don't have to agree with the assessment, but it's silly to think it is not reasonable and is only coming from animosity

I have the same questions, and I am as big an Orange fan as you can find.

 

[PoppyHart]

What's defensive about that statement? I'm actually constantly amazed at your piss in the cornflakes posting pattern. Yah, we can criticize the team and the way they play at points, but your voice is critical constantly. I guess from your posting pattern, I wonder if you see anything good in this team. Do you?

The top-8 teams are close to being set, though I think Marquette and Michigan could possibly sneak in there)

One of Doug's points, which I've made in the past as well, is that these teams have all played each other, so you can get a "read" on them, to use my language. It's not exactly a leap of logic to assert that the higher seeded teams, on average, have a better chance of winning. So if you can better compare the teams that have the greatest statistical chance of winning, you have a better overall "read". Crazy, huh.

We are very good, and certainly can make a deep run. But it's not crazy to think there are better teams.

Top-8 teams

UNC (Duke, Duke, MSU, Kentucky)
DUKE (UNC, UNC, MSU, OSU, Kansas)
Kentucky (Kansas, UNC)
OSU (Kansas, MSU, MSU, Duke)
MSU (Duke, UNC, OSU, OSU)
Mizzou (Kansas, Kansas)
Kansas (Duke, Kentucky, OSU, Mizzou, Mizzou)
Syracuse ()

 

[jekelish]

By the way, all of this "so and so beat so and so early on so it doesn't really count" crap is just that: crap. If the tables were turned, we would be livid that people were discounting a win against a big name opponent simply bevause it happened early in the season.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

It's not what he says, it is how he says it. He says things like they are fact when they are opinion. If he is such a great analyst, why does he need teams to go head to head to tell who is better? Shouldn't he be able to figure this out with his immense knowledge base and experience watching the teams?

 

[cusetown1]

every team has question marks. That's the beauty of the NCAA tournament.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

as I said, you don't have to agree with the assessment, but it's silly to think it is not reasonable and is only coming from animosity

I have the same questions, and I am as big an Orange fan as you can find.

As I said, I think it's the way he says it. And the fact that he says nothing about the warts with UNC. UK, they're playing incredible right now, and I can understand not having anything but praise for them. I don't see the grown up man love for UNC though. They're good, and I think they'd be a load for SU to handle, but they have a lot of warts as well. And I've watched way too many of their games this year living in ACC country, so I'd like to think I have a pretty good idea of the type of team they are.

 

[cusetown1]

By the way, all of this "so and so beat so and so early on so it doesn't really count" crap is just that: crap. If the tables were turned, we would be livid that people were discounting a win against a big name opponent simply bevause it happened early in the season.

big wins early on really don't mean much to me. You want to improve off them win or lose.

 

[rstone7727]

I would rather have our 31-1 record and played the schedule we have played than have Ohio State's 25-6 record and played an (arguably) tougher schedule. Our RPI is #1 and SOS #32. Michigan St has played the toughest schedule but has a 24-7 record. I don't really care what the pundits say and I wouldn't trade our season for any other teams including Kentucky..

http://statsheet.com/mcb/rankings/RPI

 

[CusefanATL]

Honestly, Doug has some valid points. He wasn't saying we aren't good, but we haven't looked elite and unlike UK, UNC, MSU etc, we haven't really been tested against elite competition. You can't argue with that.

The only thing he said that I thought was a little over the top was when Jay asked if we can win the title, and he said "Of course, the best team doesn't always win."

Did he really say Michigan State?

They have looked elite? Is he ing stupid?

they have lost 2 ing games in a row. including a blow out to a marginal top 25 team in indiana.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

The top-8 teams are close to being set, though I think Marquette and Michigan could possibly sneak in there)

One of Doug's points, which I've made in the past as well, is that these teams have all played each other, so you can get a "read" on them, to use my language. It's not exactly a leap of logic to assert that the higher seeded teams, on average, have a better chance of winning. So if you can better compare the teams that have the greatest statistical chance of winning, you have a better overall "read". Crazy, huh.

We are very good, and certainly can make a deep run. But it's not crazy to think there are better teams.

Top-8 teams

UNC (Duke, Duke, MSU, Kentucky)
DUKE (UNC, UNC, MSU, OSU, Kansas)
Kentucky (Kansas, UNC)
OSU (Kansas, MSU, MSU, Duke)
MSU (Duke, UNC, OSU, OSU)
Mizzou (Kansas, Kansas)
Kansas (Duke, Kentucky, OSU, Mizzou, Mizzou)
Syracuse ()

Thanks, that's all I wanted to hear. Seriously though, some of those games were at the VERY beginning of the season, and while not discounting them, all of those teams are much different now. So I don't think those games actually do give you a read. Later on in the season, sure. I also don't put a ton of stock into in conference games, because those teams know each other so well. If we play UConn close, and UK plays Vandy close, what does it mean? Not much, except those teams understand the way UK and SU play, and can adjust based on familiarity.

If I was putting together my top 3 right now it would be: UK, SU, UNC. If you asked me who I think we'd have a tougher time with, I'd say UNC. Being the best, or beating teams by a lot means something, but not everything. Match ups are much more important. I think we match up well with UK, and not as well with UNC. To me, that's what college basketball and the tourney is about, the match ups. I'd be absolutely scared to death of Wisconsin, but that doesn't mean I think they're the best team. Just potentially the best team against SU.nUNC has had their issues, and I think a full game of zone would make it difficult on UK. We have the players and the coach. After that it's all about the match ups.

 

[CorduroyG]

What's defensive about that statement? I'm actually constantly amazed at your piss in the cornflakes posting pattern. Yah, we can criticize the team and the way they play at points, but your voice is critical constantly. I guess from your posting pattern, I wonder if you see anything good in this team. Do you?

dont waste your time with poppy. hes never gonna change. its his message board schtick. hes never gonna say something positive about a current syracuse team. every single one if his posts will have a negative spin. he'll give every other team in the country the benefit of the doubt except his supposed favorite team. for some reasob he takes it personal if you say sonething good about syracuse or something bad about another team.

my favorite poppy post was in the game thread of the butler game after we took a 4 point lead on kjo's dunk and butler called to. everyone is going nuts, and poppy chimes in with some sarcastic comment like "why are u so excited i thought we were gonna blow them out?" i think even bluecurtain would be excited at that moment



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[PoppyHart]

I don't think I've heard anyone say there's a "chasm" between the top-teams.

Any of these above teams can make a run. The separation isn't exactly huge.

Hell, I think 40-45 teams can make the final four. Apparently that makes be a terrible fan b/c I'm supposed to assume only 6-8 teams even have a prayer.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

I don't think I've heard anyone say there's a "chasm" between the top-teams.

Any of these above teams can make a run. The separation isn't exactly huge.

Hell, I think 40-45 teams can make the final four. Apparently that makes be a terrible fan b/c I'm supposed to assume only 6-8 teams even have a prayer.

Read my other post, it's all about match ups in the NCAA's. By Gottlieb making such a pointed statement about SU not being in the conversation of top two teams in America, I'd say he thinks there's a bit of a chasm.

 

[jekelish]

He never said we aren't in the conversation, did he? He just said he's not convinced we are one of the two best teams.

What the hell is wrong with that?

 

[moqui]

Congrats, Skurey. You started this thread as a joke, and it has become the most-commented upon of the day even following a scintillating victory over one of our most hated foes

well done, I give you 50 unofficial likes.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

He never said we aren't in the conversation, did he? He just said he's not convinced we are one of the two best teams.

What the hell is wrong with that?

He said "Jay, do you actually think Syracuse is one of the top two teams in the nation?" That statement to me means it is a no brainer to him that they are not. I don't think that's the case.