Green Bananas

[TheCusian]

No it actually does not count after this year, lost all credit for last year and not even sure that should not have been at least partially credited to Marrone.

What?!?! Marrone took everyone but the ball boys with him - also losing a few high profile recruits. Shafer was familiar with the talent and where to park his car. That's it.

New QB, new OC, new DC, new conference. I think last year was harder and better handled than any of Marrone's.

 

[xc84]

Well that's how the programs that hire those type of coaches do it. They don't take it all out if their budget.

Either go big or go home. Or stop with the rebuild excuses.

Still funny when you talk about it here. A lot of places throw money at coaches, yes. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. However, it's a moot point here.

 

[TheCusian]

You can see things the way you see things all you want. Fact of the matter is there were an awful lot of excuses in your post - and in your prior posts as well.

People call reasons, "excuses" when they can no longer see clearly - due to pent up frustration and negativity.

 

[xc84]

What?!?! Marrone took everyone but the ball boys with him - also losing a few high profile recruits. Shafer was familiar with the talent and where to park his car. That's it.

New QB, new OC, new DC, new conference. I think last year was harder and better handled than any of Marrone's.

No coaches. No recruits. You have a lot of nerve to bring that up.

 

[TheCusian]

I think you're reading way too much into the frustrations of the board. Who are you to judge that? As a fan base, are we frustrated? Heck yes. And if you were an SU fan, you'd be frustrated too. Does that make any of our points less valid - RE: discipline on the field (stupid penalties, not keeping contain on a 1-AA QB, etc.), horrible punt-go decisions, ill-advised clock management or lack of offensive plan for the last 2 years? Heck not it doesn't.

Cute. I'm a part of this fan base and have been since 1987. I am frustrated. I'm also as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I just choose to step away from the chum in the water to see the full picture: good and bad.

They are valid concerns. I just don't categorize him as "inept" in those areas (except offense - that's not defendable). Why bring those up without talking about the positives too?

If you find the offense, time management, etc. as reasons for change - then you should be in favor of McDonalds demotion. Shafer didn't make excuses - he took action, holding McDonald accountable, no?

 

[xc84]

Beat Nebraska before year seven, and that is where the program showed first sign of resurgence. You can say year seven and that would be indisputable, does not change what I was trying to say in my original post. Guess somehow makes you feel better to have what you believe is the exact year, good for you. I will agree to seven years, but was not relevant to my point.

The Nebraska win in Coach Mac's 4th year at the helm was awesome. I was there (as I was at the Rutgers loss the week before). The biggest and most pivitol win in my lifetime as an SU fan. Finishing 6-5 that year was relatively decent. 2 years later they had a losing record. I imagine using the logic of some on this board, he should have been canned for "regression". Remember the "Sack Mac" movement?

Of course Shafer has to show progress but rebuilding here is not "big bang" stuff...it's incremental improvements with sometimes some back-slides from a W-L standpoint. (see Mac's 6th year and Marrone's 3rd). The overall success in the 90s took a decade to work toward.

 

[TheCusian]

No coaches. No recruits. You have a lot of nerve to bring that up.

Excuses! There is no room for them! Must overcome everything with talent and coaching and magic!!

 

[xc84]

Excuses! There is no room for them! Must overcome everything with talent and coaching and magic!!

Not to mention $3-4M from fans.

 

[SUbear]

I agree with you - the offense needs to be fixed or he'll lose his job.

I was speaking towards giving him less of s chance than his predecessors because of a personal frustration that spans beyond his tenure by 8-10 years.

I have always felt he should get another year, but I do not believe that SU should retain coaches because they sign contracts that are too long(contracts should be three years with a forth on a performance criteria), or because someone in the past got longer. SU can not afford to be an incompetent team for much longer or they lose what remains of the fan base. I am willing to see this as a one year aberation for whatever reasons, willing to see Shafer given another bite of the apple, but my patience is wearing thin for SU football adminstration has caused most of their problems over the years(moreso than coaches).
Continuing cycles of administration failing to give adequate support to program vis a vis their competition. Frustration bred by incompetent adminstrators over many cycles. You are correct that Shafer should not be accountable for this built up frustration, but he is the visible face of the program, therfore can not avoid being the brunt of that frustration, unless he can deliver the goods.

 

[TheCusian]

I have always felt he should get another year, but I do not believe that SU should retain coaches because they sign contracts that are too long(contracts should be three years with a forth on a performance criteria), or because someone in the past got longer. SU can not afford to be an incompetent team for much longer or they lose what remains of the fan base. I am willing to see this as a one year aberation for whatever reasons, willing to see Shafer given another bite of the apple, but my patience is wearing thin for SU football adminstration has caused most of their problems over the years(moreso than coaches). Continuing cycles of administration failing to give adequate support to program vis a vis their competition. Frustration bred by incompetent adminstrators over many cycles. You are correct that Shafer should not be accountable for this built up frustration, but he is the visible face of the program, therfore can not avoid being the brunt of that frustration, unless he can deliver the goods.

I have no problem holding the university and Dr.Gross accountable for the mediocrity. I'm not sure we have the boosters to pull of big buyouts - and I'm not sure limiting the years on an already low $ contract will attract the coaches we want.

 

[OrangeSky]

There are lot's of good points and opinions in this thread. Some I agree with, and others I don't.
But-
what remains a repetitive mind-boggling blunder of decision making, is how we can continue to hire head coaches that have ZERO head coaching experience and blindly hope they'll grow into the job. It's almost always a fool's errand, especially when trying to rescue a once respectable program from the jaws of abject failure. After GRob, I would think that the powers that be on the search committees would have made this priority number one on the requirement list.

If/when Shafer goes, if we hire another unproven as our head coach, my head will explode, as I believe SU football will be unsalvageable and done for good at that point.

 

[SUbear]

The Nebraska win in Coach Mac's 4th year at the helm was awesome. I was there (as I was at the Rutgers loss the week before). The biggest and most pivitol win in my lifetime as an SU fan. Finishing 6-5 that year was relatively decent. 2 years later they had a losing record. I imagine using the logic of some on this board, he should have been canned for "regression". Remember the "Sack Mac" movement?

Of course Shafer has to show progress but rebuilding here is not "big bang" stuff...it's incremental improvements with sometimes some back-slides from a W-L standpoint. (see Mac's 6th year and Marrone's 3rd). The overall success in the 90s took a decade to work toward.

Sliding back to 5-6 is not really the same as going 3-9, is it? now I know we are not 3-9 yet maybe by some magic we go 5-7, and I really hope we do, but I am not placing any bets on it, are you? I do not ask that we become national champs tomorrow, although I would not object to a run at it, I do ask that we are a competitive football team that on average plays somewhere above .500 ball. I am not seeing consistent progress towards even that goal, I would like to be a bowl contender most years, we seemed to have been making some progress in that direction until this year.
Next year, in my opinion, is now critical for HCSSS because it will actually show if he can make the necessary adjustments to right this program, if we have a consecutive poor performance next year I believe he will be replaced or at least should be. I hope he gets this program righted next year because coaching stability is not to be sneered at, it is a rather valuable commodity. I wish him the best because I want SU football to be a respectable, winning program.

I do remember the sack Mac pack, though I was never part of that. I too was at both games.

 

[SUbear]

I have no problem holding the university and Dr.Gross accountable for the mediocrity. I'm not sure we have the boosters to pull of big buyouts - and I'm not sure limiting the years on an already low $ contract will attract the coaches we want.

Please, SU has been hiring first time head coaches forever, there is absolutely no reason to give that type of hire extended multi year contracts. They are happy to get any head job, now if we ever were too go after an established head coach that might change the situation(money and length of contract), but SU has not done so in my lifetime.
I have been following SU since the days of JBrown. I of course was just a young fellow then.

 

[Crusty]

You can dream. but not going to happen. If by some miracle it were to happen, yes then everything at least looks better, and appearances do count.

Perceptions matter. Let's say we did neat Ptii and B and that those games happened earlier and we were 5-6 going into the last game against say Clemson. Playing Clemson tough while injured etc would make the whole season look and feel different.

 

[rrlbees]

Excuses! There is no room for them! Must overcome everything with talent and coaching and magic!!

When it's been 13 years, yes they are excuses. I guess if Shafer gets dumped next year and the next cheaper new guy comes in, you'll be right here giving your reasons why the new guy needs time to bring in his kids, get his systems implemented, etc. wash, rinse dry.

 

[rrlbees]

Not to mention $3-4M from fans.

You don't get how the better programs pay coaches do you? Boosters, booster clubs, etc.

 

[xc84]

When it's been 13 years, yes they are excuses. I guess if Shafer gets dumped next year and the next cheaper new guy comes in, you'll be right here giving your reasons why the new guy needs time to bring in his kids, get his systems implemented, etc. wash, rinse dry.

Of course. First, I don't think Shafer should be fired. However, if he is, then of course the new guy will have to deal with all the obstacles to overcome that will exist at that time. I won't pretend they don't exist and won't expect that he carries magic pixie dust with him.

 

[xc84]

You don't get how the better programs pay coaches do you? Boosters, booster clubs, etc.

Talk about Wash/Rinse/Repeat!

Yes, some programs pay a ton of money for football coaches funded by large donors. Some of those coaches pan out. Some don't. You don't realize Syracuse is not one of those schools. Getting fans to put up $3-4 million in your proposed strategy ain't going to happen.

 

[javadoc]

Please, SU has been hiring first time head coaches forever, there is absolutely no reason to give that type of hire extended multi year contracts. They are happy to get any head job, now if we ever were too go after an established head coach that might change the situation(money and length of contract), but SU has not done so in my lifetime.
I have been following SU since the days of JBrown. I of course was just a young fellow then.

Hadn't really thought about that, and I had to check.

Shafer: no prior HC experience
Marrone: no prior HC experience
Robinson: no prior HC experience
Pasqualoni: 5 years at W. Connecticut St.
Macpherson: 6 years at UMass
Maloney: no prior HC experience
Schwartzwalder: 3 years at Muhlenberg (1946-1948)

So, going back to WWII, Syracuse has never hired a HC with previous D1 HC experience, nor even D-1AA experience.

Hiring an up-and-coming MAC coach would be a big change of pace for us.

 

[SUFan44]

People call reasons, "excuses" when they can no longer see clearly - due to pent up frustration and negativity.

Haha ok. Call it whatever you want. I have plenty of "reasons" too.

 

[Crusty]

You don't get how the better programs pay coaches do you? Boosters, booster clubs, etc.

Athletic department trusts

 

[TheCusian]

When it's been 13 years, yes they are excuses. I guess if Shafer gets dumped next year and the next cheaper new guy comes in, you'll be right here giving your reasons why the new guy needs time to bring in his kids, get his systems implemented, etc. wash, rinse dry.

Now you're getting it. If you have a gripe - it should be directed at the Athletic Dept, not Shafer. He's not perfect and there is a slew of things to fix and improve - but giving Shafer less time than his predecessors (all the way back to the Jim Brown days) with better or similar results is foolish. The same reasons to see Shafer through, applied to every SU coach in the modern era.

Again, if you're looking at season after season of mediocrity - look to the common denominators during that whole era - not the coach who hasn't even been on the job for two whole seasons yet.

 

[TheCusian]

Haha ok. Call it whatever you want. I have plenty of "reasons" too.

ME: If we have a 3-9 season and are bit by injuries, have no bye-weeks, but also made poor playcalls at bad moments - who is to blame?
Correct answer: Both.

YOU: If we have a 3-9 season and focus solely on just the bad playcalls, who is to blame?
Correct answer: The coaches

 

[rrlbees]

Talk about Wash/Rinse/Repeat! Yes, some programs pay a ton of money for football coaches funded by large donors. Some of those coaches pan out. Some don't. You don't realize Syracuse is not one of those schools. Getting fans to put up $3-4 million in your proposed strategy ain't going to happen.

Where did I say it would happen? Talk about twisting words.

 

[xc84]

Where did I say it would happen? Talk about twisting words.

You proposed it. Silly me for thinking you were proposing something that you actually thought could happen.