Green Bananas

[TheCusian]

Love the way you cherry pick to support your bias. Was he not their head coach for three years? You believe he had no influence over any of that teams players developement in all that time, okay then he was just a figurehead in your opinion. Got it.

I'd say if you asked Bromley who had more of an influence, he'd say his DC of 3 years and HC of one. How come all of the players wanted Shafer? His head coaching chops can be challenged - but who has been more influential cannot.

 

[Crusty]

This teams offense was not any good before the injuries, injuries of course contributed to season, especially Hunt being out. I think we win two more games at this point with Hunt at QB. That does not fully excuse Shafer's poor coaching however.
I hope he gets things back on track next year, but am in a wait and see mode.

I really don't know how we are supposed to judge a coach when he is playing so many subs. I know I don't know how to do it. If the line is banged up I can't judge the running backs. If the WR are banged up I can't judge the QB and if the QB's are banged up I can't judge anybody. If we are playing true freshmaen and RS freshmen at key positions it is hard to judge the OC.

If 50% of my 2 deep is out or walking wounded I certainly wouldn't want my boss to judge my coaching ability under those extraordinary circumstances. So, I won't judge Shafer on it either. If we are going to manage the program in that manner we are doomed.

 

[TheCusian]

I really don't know how we are supposed to judge a coach when he is playing so many subs. I know I don't know how to do it. If the line is banged up I can't judge the running backs. If the WR are banged up I can't judge the QB and if the QB's are banged up I can't judge anybody. If we are playing true freshmaen and RS freshmen at key positions it is hard to judge the OC. If 50% of my 2 deep is out or walking wounded I certainly wouldn't want my boss to judge my coaching ability under those extraordinary circumstances. So, I won't judge Shafer on it either. If we are going to manage the program in that manner we are doomed.

Excuse!!!! They should overcome all injuries!!! Marrone would!

 

[javadoc]

I really don't know how we are supposed to judge a coach when he is playing so many subs. I know I don't know how to do it. If the line is banged up I can't judge the running backs. If the WR are banged up I can't judge the QB and if the QB's are banged up I can't judge anybody. If we are playing true freshmaen and RS freshmen at key positions it is hard to judge the OC.

If 50% of my 2 deep is out or walking wounded I certainly wouldn't want my boss to judge my coaching ability under those extraordinary circumstances. So, I won't judge Shafer on it either. If we are going to manage the program in that manner we are doomed.

We as laymen (well, me, anyway!) can't judge. I would love to be a fly on the wall hearing what Dabo or Jimbo have to say while watching our film. On offense, at least.

 

[Crusty]

Excuse!!!! They should overcome all injuries!!! Marrone would!

Interesting that you invoke Saint Doug because he couldn't either!

 

[SUbear]

Interesting that you invoke Saint Doug because he couldn't either!

I believe he was trying to be sarcastic. He is just not very good at it.

 

[Crusty]

I believe he was trying to be sarcastic. He is just not very good at it.

Yeah, I know, but couldn't resist. Anytime I can use Saint Doug I can't control myself. (And I am not a DM hater just think its funny.)

 

[Chip]

Cutcliffe at Duke went 4-8, 5-7, 3-9, 3-9 in his 1st 4 years.

They're on pace for back-to-back 10 win seasons.

Sometimes the bananas take a little longer to ripen.

Here's how I'd compare Cutcliffe to our situation, and what we need to think about.

The bulk of the ACC sits in this mid level where all of us recruit similar talent. You can analyze each player, apply stars, look at rankings, etc. but they are all fairly similar in their talent. So what we need to think about is whether or not, with similar talent, we think we have an X factor with our coach and staff? I bet Duke feels pretty good about their coach in that situation. Do we?

I'd say I do on defense, but on offense? No chance...yet. Which is why I think Shafer needs to have a talk with Gross about available $, scour what's out there, and see if there are any proven OCs who may find themselves in a role where Syracuse looks appealing (i.e. Fridge to Rutgers scenario). If Lester is going to change things anyway, then what is the risk?

I hope Lester's the guy, but we don't know, and that's basically all our hopes right now on sticking out as a team behind FSU/Clemson.

 

[SUbear]

I really don't know how we are supposed to judge a coach when he is playing so many subs. I know I don't know how to do it. If the line is banged up I can't judge the running backs. If the WR are banged up I can't judge the QB and if the QB's are banged up I can't judge anybody. If we are playing true freshmaen and RS freshmen at key positions it is hard to judge the OC.

If 50% of my 2 deep is out or walking wounded I certainly wouldn't want my boss to judge my coaching ability under those extraordinary circumstances. So, I won't judge Shafer on it either. If we are going to manage the program in that manner we are doomed.

And that is why next year becomes crucial for him to get back to at least six wins. Offense was terrible from the start of season when team was healthy(as any tam ever is). Exactly how long should coach get using too many injuries, I do not have players that fit system, not enough talent, the schedule is too tough, ad nauseum. I do not think Shafer would use those excuses. He knows there is only one test of a head coach and that is putting a winning product on the field.
In his words the goal this year was eight wins, I personally think that was being very optimistic, but three wins does not cut it.
My test for judging him as head coach is frankly what he does next year to fix this years glaring problems 1) offensive scheme and execution, 2) discipline on offensive line too lower penalties that were drive killers, 3) changing his sideline demeanor(he seems to argue with the refs way too much and that eventually becomes a problem), and 4) fix special teams play especially the blocking(players seldom maintain their blocks they chuck a guy, if that, and that is about it) and lastly staff adjustments, changes to further any or all of these goals.
Some here want to give him a complete pass for this season, okay he was not going anywhere anyway. I am not one of them. I saw too many problems outside of injuries to give him a pass, but the injuries certainly created additional hurdles that were difficult to overcome.
I do not know about you but my boss would not have accepted excuses why I could not get my job done, if those excuses were repeated. He gets next year, certainly not my decision to hire or fire, but how much rope he is given is the question. My main concern is not whether or not Shafer is retained, I frankly do not care either way, my concern is the ticking clock on SU football getting to a consistent level of performance that will address our deteriorating fan base. I doubt that they will get the fannies in the seats next year until they show many that they have a functional team.

 

[Chip]

I really don't know how we are supposed to judge a coach when he is playing so many subs. I know I don't know how to do it. If the line is banged up I can't judge the running backs. If the WR are banged up I can't judge the QB and if the QB's are banged up I can't judge anybody. If we are playing true freshmaen and RS freshmen at key positions it is hard to judge the OC.

If 50% of my 2 deep is out or walking wounded I certainly wouldn't want my boss to judge my coaching ability under those extraordinary circumstances. So, I won't judge Shafer on it either. If we are going to manage the program in that manner we are doomed.

Although one thing, if you're Gross, that you do ask him is to look at our conditioning program and see if there is any way to prevent some of this. You ask other programs for ideas, these coaches always share stuff like this.

In 2011, we faced the same situation. I don't remember the specifics, but Marrone made several changes to try to avoid the same issue in 2012 (especially since we were facing a one bye season with 8 straight games in 2012). Whatever he did worked.

 

[Crusty]

Yes, excellent point.

Although one thing, if you're Gross, that you do ask him is to look at our conditioning program and see if there is any way to prevent some of this. You ask other programs for ideas, these coaches always share stuff like this.

In 2011, we faced the same situation. I don't remember the specifics, but Marrone made several changes to try to avoid the same issue in 2012 (especially since we were facing a one bye season with 8 straight games in 2012). Whatever he did worked.

 

[swish7]

Excuse!!!! They should overcome all injuries!!! Marrone would!

Although one thing, if you're Gross, that you do ask him is to look at our conditioning program and see if there is any way to prevent some of this. You ask other programs for ideas, these coaches always share stuff like this. In 2011, we faced the same situation. I don't remember the specifics, but Marrone made several changes to try to avoid the same issue in 2012 (especially since we were facing a one bye season with 8 straight games in 2012). Whatever he did worked.

IMO, what creates parity in football, and pretty much any college sport, as much as parity can be created in football, is open access to, and use of, advanced training techniques. It's an area where there is no excuse for not keeping up with the Jones's.

It's simply one of those things that you cannot fall behind in. Training as well as the next guy is a fundamental to participation. If you're not doing it well, you may as well not show up. Our S&C has seemed spotty over the past decade. This is going back a while, but we had that one year where skill position players bulked up too much, and lost speed. We have had issues with basketball players not gaining any strength. Yet we've also had super freaks like Dwight Freeney.

We can build statues and dedicate rooms, and have hallways with large backlit photos of past greats, etc. Fine. However, the one thing we need to invest smartly in, is the S&C program. I'd rank it right up there with spending big bucks on a proven OC.

Injuries happen, but they happened to us at an alarming rate this year. So alarming, that Clemson fans didn't even believe they were real. Injuries are often a result of poor preparation, as much as they are pure bad luck.

 

[Crusty]

And that is why next year becomes crucial for him to get back to at least six wins. Offense was terrible from the start of season when team was healthy(as any tam ever is). Exactly how long should coach get using too many injuries, I do not have players that fit system, not enough talent, the schedule is too tough, ad nauseum. I do not think Shafer would use those excuses. He knows there is only one test of a head coach and that is putting a winning product on the field.
In his words the goal this year was eight wins, I personally think that was being very optimistic, but three wins does not cut it.
My test for judging him as head coach is frankly what he does next year to fix this years glaring problems 1) offensive scheme and execution, 2) discipline on offensive line too lower penalties that were drive killers, 3) changing his sideline demeanor(he seems to argue with the refs way too much and that eventually becomes a problem), and 4) fix special teams play especially the blocking(players seldom maintain their blocks they chuck a guy, if that, and that is about it) and lastly staff adjustments, changes to further any or all of these goals.
Some here want to give him a complete pass for this season, okay he was not going anywhere anyway. I am not one of them. I saw too many problems outside of injuries to give him a pass, but the injuries certainly created additional hurdles that were difficult to overcome.
I do not know about you but my boss would not have accepted excuses why I could not get my job done, if those excuses were repeated. He gets next year, certainly not my decision to hire or fire, but how much rope he is given is the question. My main concern is not whether or not Shafer is retained, I frankly do not care either way, my concern is the ticking clock on SU football getting to a consistent level of performance that will address our deteriorating fan base. I doubt that they will get the fannies in the seats next year until they show many that they have a functional team.

My point was related to injuries and while I can see a few instances where the HC could be culpable for continuous injuries, that is not yet the case here. Injuries are injuries and they are no less a valid reason in one year or another. All one needs to do is look at Clemson and what one injury has done to the entire team that is loaded with talent everywhere but QB.

The team played well on defense and horrible on offense. Shafer moved to try to fix the offense by making a very hard personal decision - that is what a HC is supposed to do. The only yardstick that IMO makes sense is how well we do on offense next year.

 

[SUbear]

My point was related to injuries and while I can see a few instances where the HC could be culpable for continuous injuries, that is not yet the case here. Injuries are injuries and they are no less a valid reason in one year or another. All one needs to do is look at Clemson and what one injury has done to the entire team that is loaded with talent everywhere but QB.

The team played well on defense and horrible on offense. Shafer moved to try to fix the offense by making a very hard personal decision - that is what a HC is supposed to do. The only yardstick that IMO makes sense is how well we do on offense next year.

Team was not good before injuries, therefore you can not say injuries were the cause of poor performance, simply not a principal of causation. If the team had been performing at a high level and then had injuries and performance suffered you could make that case. It was not.
Injuries only ade a bad team worse.

 

[Crusty]

Team was not good before injuries, therefore you can not say injuries were the cause of poor performance, simply not a principal of causation. If the team had been performing at a high level and then had injuries and performance suffered you could make that case. It was not.
Injuries only ade a bad team worse.

Your reasoning might have validity if we had not been injured right from the start. Had we been healthy and played poorly your point would have some basis however, as you will recall, we started out injured.
Week 1: Brisly Estime ankle, Nick Robinson - foot, Omari Palmer - ankle, Adly Enociy surgery, AJ Long - sore arm. We were never healthy.

Our defense was stellar during 2014 and our offense was hapless. The defense performed on approximately the same level as last year and the offense did not - even though the offense was the more experienced unit (especially the OL). The OL was devastated by injuries from week one.

You can choose to ignore these facts in order to reach your conclusion, but it will be a totally subjective one.

 

[Quazzum69]

Lane Kiffin should be the next coach. He has head coach experience and is an offensive mind. He's young and I think he will learn a lot from arguably the best in the business, Nick Saban.

He only makes about 700k at Alabama. A school like SU could get Kiffin - I don't know how many schools are lining up for his services. He would at least make the games a little more enjoyable to watch.

 

[Crusty]

Lane Kiffin should be the next coach. He has head coach experience and is an offensive mind. He's young and I think he will learn a lot from arguably the best in the business, Nick Saban.

He only makes about 700k at Alabama. A school like SU could get Kiffin - I don't know how many schools are lining up for his services. He would at least make the games a little more enjoyable to watch.

Yes, but he is such a jerk and would be gone in a flash.

 

[Quazzum69]

Yes, but he is such a jerk and would be gone in a flash.

Maybe so, but he didn't get some of the best jobs in the country for no reason. As a fan, I can deal with a jerk coach if he makes the games entertaining. If Kiffin is good enough for Nick Saban and Alabama, he's good enough for Syracuse.

SU should be getting the checkbook out now. His stock is going to shoot right back up after a few seasons under Saban.

 

[Crusty]

Maybe so, but he didn't get some of the best jobs in the country for no reason. As a fan, I can deal with a jerk coach if he makes the games entertaining. If Kiffin is good enough for Nick Saban and Alabama, he's good enough for Syracuse.

SU should be getting the checkbook out now. His stock is going to shoot right back up after a few seasons under Saban.

He would last a year at SU and be gone. I don't think we need that.

 

[swish7]

Your reasoning might have validity if we had not been injured right from the start. Had we been healthy and played poorly your point would have some basis however, as you will recall, we started out injured.
Week 1: Brisly Estime ankle, Nick Robinson - foot, Omari Palmer - ankle, Adly Enociy surgery, AJ Long - sore arm. We were never healthy.

Our defense was stellar during 2014 and our offense was hapless. The defense performed on approximately the same level as last year and the offense did not - even though the offense was the more experienced unit (especially the OL). The OL was devastated by injuries from week one.

You can choose to ignore these facts in order to reach your conclusion, but it will be a totally subjective one.

And while you're rolling out the week 1 injury card, and charging others to not ignore them, let's not ignore whom the week 1 opponent was. There is no excuse for our week 1 play, none. Injuries certainly not.

Lane Kiffin needs to be careful on his next job selection. He's got to be getting close to burning up most of daddy's bridges. That said, no clue if he is the answer to anything. The only thing impressive about him is his wife.

If we retained coaches for their lack of jerk-factor, Pasqualoni would still be here.

 

[Crusty]

And while you're rolling out the week 1 injury card, and charging others to not ignore them, let's not ignore whom the week 1 opponent was. There is no excuse for our week 1 play, none. Injuries certainly not.

Lane Kiffin needs to be careful on his next job selection. He's got to be getting close to burning up most of daddy's bridges. That said, no clue if he is the answer to anything. The only thing impressive about him is his wife.

If we retained coaches for their lack of jerk-factor, Pasqualoni would still be here.

I was as upset about the Nova game as anyone, but I try to remember that Hunt was thrown out and now we know Nova is better than any of us knew. For what it is worth, Sagarin has them at 80 (CMU is 100 and Wake Forest is 149). Had Hunt played the whole game I think we would have had a far better result. Maybe not - but maybe so.

 

[MikeSU02]

Lane Kiffin should be the next coach. He has head coach experience and is an offensive mind. He's young and I think he will learn a lot from arguably the best in the business, Nick Saban.

He only makes about 700k at Alabama. A school like SU could get Kiffin - I don't know how many schools are lining up for his services. He would at least make the games a little more enjoyable to watch.

No. He has personal stuff that will not, and shouldn't, pass the threshold to be considered.

 

[CuseOnly]

Wasn't Kiffin one of the candidates that turned down an interview before Marrone was hired?

 

[SUbear]

Your reasoning might have validity if we had not been injured right from the start. Had we been healthy and played poorly your point would have some basis however, as you will recall, we started out injured.
Week 1: Brisly Estime ankle, Nick Robinson - foot, Omari Palmer - ankle, Adly Enociy surgery, AJ Long - sore arm. We were never healthy.

Our defense was stellar during 2014 and our offense was hapless. The defense performed on approximately the same level as last year and the offense did not - even though the offense was the more experienced unit (especially the OL). The OL was devastated by injuries from week one.

You can choose to ignore these facts in order to reach your conclusion, but it will be a totally subjective one.

Sorry not buying it we were relatively healthy at the start. All teams have some injuries. Enoicy would not have been a factor at any time. AJ was not a factor to start the season and frankly never should have been on the field at all except for the QB injuries later on. One you did not mention was Josh Parris, but we did not use the tight ends very effectively throughout this season, not really a big part of the offensive scheme. Estime might have been a factor, but one player should not a team make. The biggest loss was probably Robinson, but again what team does not have at least one lineman beat up even to start a season.
No we were relatively healthy, and the offense was worse than last year and last year we were not great.
I am still waiting to see what developes from Shafer next year but so far I have been unimpressed. I speak mostly on the offensive side, but special teams have also not been good.

 

[SUbear]

People like me, huh? Nice. I may disagree and fight to the point of obnoxiousness - but I don't attack the person. That is crap.

Here's the deal: I've repeatedly - repeatedly - said that they did a poor job this year and need to improve. You're the one making it personal because I like my negative accompanied by a clear view of ALL the reasons for the poor performance AND see silver linings. I don't blindly support anyone. But I also recognize when it's wise to take a step back and really evaluate - instead of the blind negativity from pent up frustration that I see when I read your posts.

If you can't see the positive - it's you that is living outside of reality.

You were the one that called my posts crap, I responded in kind. I would say you were the one who got personal.
Please ignore me as I have now done you.