I ride with Dino...

[FasterCuse]

It matters!!! The guy is making Millions of dollars this year!!!! He isn’t giving his salary back is he? Guys are getting fired across the country sent they? There will be a national title game, and a conference championship game.

I think we should tell Clemson that the season doesn't matter.

 

[TheCusian]

I'm staying out of the fray on the should he stay or should he go argument. Had to chime in on the SRS though as its a very weak analytical tool and there are so many better advanced statistical models. I think you know that though based upon prior conversations we've had regarding the same. Using it to bolster or undermine and argument isn't quite the hammer someone may think. Its actually quite weak.

For clarity though, SOS is already built into the SRS rating so posting both statistics is duplicative and doesn't add anything to the SRS rating.

You should have at least posted the disclaimer that SRS (if you've used the most common model) has Cincinnati and Buffalo as the #3 and #4 teams in the country right now. Not sure what one would say about that using this "rating" system.

It’s a quick and dirty tool. I’m fine with you pointing out it’s failings.

I used both SRS and SOS because not everyone is you.

While I think SRS gets Cinci and UB wrong, I think we can agree that limited OOC games and the fact that a whole bunch of teams are at varying points in their seasons is probably accounts to, what’s the technical term - a weird arse year lol. Plus those teams, while certainly not 3 or 4 - are really good given the weird and limited sample size.

 

[upperdeck]

2 separate issues that many cant separate. its easy to see the numbers and be unhappy. but if you cant see the changes on D that have been made and easily can trend forward or that the O is playing with half a deck and are gard for even good teams to over come what can you do.

i can not tell you if the oline is bad because of talent or coaching but its clear depth is an issue and nothing a coach could do about that this year. if your best oline guy is so hurt he is a liability how does coaching fix that?

if we need a new coach to recruit better than fine.. we have been waiting to solve that riddle for 20 yrs.

we all want the offense to be better, but the QB play that last weeks has taken winnable games and lost them. TD gives us a great shot at winning 3-4 of these with how the D has kept us in the game.

lots of pieces to being a head coach, Dino does many of the ones we dont see well. But wins are wins.. lets see how it plays out with a full team next yr. I think no way anything happens until we see where we are in Nov on 22..

 

[TheCusian]

Thank you for making my point. Dino's Year 5 on offense is comparable to Greg's Year 1. That's a sad state of affairs.

Also your point about "this year's schedule is the toughest!" is also moot. Of course it is, we don't have a FCS and/or MAC school on the schedule and are playing only our conference peers. Take the conference only schedules since we've been in the ACC and then you'll have an accurate comparison.

Look, I know realistically Dino won't be fired this year. But there is certainly a case to be made. We can't keep moving the goalposts by saying this year is weird when plenty of other teams have gone through the same kind of changes (including two just down the road from us) and have been WAY more competitive and prepared than the 2020 Syracuse team. You can't debate that part.

You asked for a comparison between the two. What it shows is that you’re not taking the schedule strength and the various reasons this year is weird into account. The only asterisk Gerg gets is that he was in year 1.

Gerg coached in the BE. Our schedules since joining the ACC are tougher by a good measure.

We are not the only team failing to meet our normal expectations. The P5 is full of uneven teams.

 

[Acesn8s]

Guys are getting fired at schools in the SEC. I’m not arguing he did a good job. I’m arguing that it’s hard to judge anyone given the hand that got dealt to him this year.

Don’t fool yourself, this championship won’t be like the others.

That’s where we are not on the same page... I am judging him based on 5 years and 1 winning season. And those SEC schools you are referring to are South Carolina and Vandy, not the cream of the crop.

 

[Acesn8s]

2 separate issues that many cant separate. its easy to see the numbers and be unhappy. but if you cant see the changes on D that have been made and easily can trend forward or that the O is playing with half a deck and are gard for even good teams to over come what can you do.

i can not tell you if the oline is bad because of talent or coaching but its clear depth is an issue and nothing a coach could do about that this year. if your best oline guy is so hurt he is a liability how does coaching fix that?

if we need a new coach to recruit better than fine.. we have been waiting to solve that riddle for 20 yrs.

we all want the offense to be better, but the QB play that last weeks has taken winnable games and lost them. TD gives us a great shot at winning 3-4 of these with how the D has kept us in the game.

lots of pieces to being a head coach, Dino does many of the ones we dont see well. But wins are wins.. lets see how it plays out with a full team next yr. I think no way anything happens until we see where we are in Nov on 22.. I think those is a solid point of view, the only point I would like you to at least consider is Coach Babers is in year 5 and he was hired because he is an OFFENSE minded head coach. The whole reason he was hired was because he had an exciting high powered high scoring offense. The D coordinator did a reasonably good job IN YEAR 1. Depth and recruiting are two of the head coaches biggest parts of being a D1 head coach.

 

[PatMark]

You asked for a comparison between the two. What it shows is that you’re not taking the schedule strength and the various reasons this year is weird into account. The only asterisk Gerg gets is that he was in year 1.

Gerg coached in the BE. Our schedules since joining the ACC are tougher by a good measure.

We are not the only team failing to meet our normal expectations. The P5 is full of uneven teams.

The only comparison I made to 2005 was that we are going to finish with the same record.

We just can't keep saying this season doesn't matter because of Covid. It absolutely matters. Dino is still earning his full paycheck. Yet this team doesn't look prepared and is inept on offense every week. Injuries happen. I really only count one opt out (Trill) since Cisco was hurt. Adams/Howard aren't winning games by themselves. We are in the same boat as everyone else!

 

[upperdeck]

The only comparison I made to 2005 was that we are going to finish with the same record.

We just can't keep saying this season doesn't matter because of Covid. It absolutely matters. Dino is still earning his full paycheck. Yet this team doesn't look prepared and is inept on offense every week. Injuries happen. I really only count one opt out (Trill) since Cisco was hurt. Adams/Howard aren't winning games by themselves. We are in the same boat as everyone else!

so we were so unprepared we took it down to the last play, which is it?

inept has nothing to do with being prepared if you dont have the horses..

 

[TheCusian]

I think we should tell Clemson that the season doesn't matter.

There’s quite a difference in carrots between Clemson and most other teams playing right now. I’d want to play 3 CFB seasons a year if I were Clemson.

 

[JimBoston]

Dino and Doug actually match up quite well. Dougie had easier schedules and less resources, comparable results (bowls/wins/metrics). Dino has much harder schedules and more resources.

Here are the first 4 year strength of schedules from Sagarin of Robinson, Marrone, and Babers with 3 years from Shafer:

Robinson:
2005: 42, played 4 ranked opponents and no FCS
2006: 14, played 4 ranked opponents and no FCS
2007: 32, 4 ranked opponents and no FCS
2008: 34, 3 ranked opponents and no FCS

Marrone:
2009: 36, 4 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2010: 73, 1 ranked opponent and 1 FCS
2011: 55, 1 ranked opponent and 1 FCS
2012: 45, 3 ranked opponents and 1 FCS

Babers:
2016: 8, 4 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2017: 8, 3 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2018: 61, 3 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2019: 73, 1 ranked opponent and 1 FCS

Shafer:
2013: 57, 3 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2014: 41, 4 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2015: 39, 4 ranked opponents and 1 FCS

Schedule Strength Ranked by season (record):
2016: 8 Babers (4-8)
2017: 8 Babers (4-8)
2006: 14 Robinson (4-8)
2007: 32 Robinson (2-10)
2008: 34 Robinson (3-9)
2009: 36 Marrone (4-8)
2015: 39 Shafer (4-8)
2014: 41 Shafer (3-9)
2005: 42 Robinson (1-10)
2012: 45 Marrone (8-5)
2011: 55 Marrone (5-7)
2013: 57 Shafer (7-6)
2018: 61 Babers (10-3)
2010: 73 Marrone (8-5)
2019: 73 Babers (5-7)

My takeaways:

1) GRob played the hardest average schedule, but his results were poor. Record would have been better if Syracuse played one FCS team per year.
2) Babers had the hardest 2 SOS seasons and Syracuse was 4-8 both years.
3) Babers 2018 and 2019 teams faced two of the 3 easiest schedules in the last 15 years.

 

[orangecuse]

Dino and Doug actually match up quite well. Dougie had easier schedules and less resources, comparable results (bowls/wins/metrics). Dino has much harder schedules and more resources.

I'd like to see one of those charts for this? The ACC (taking away Clemson) is a very mediocre/average at best football conference. The Pitt's, BC's, NCST's, Wake's, VPI, have consistently been pretty average, no? I know a couple years back Miami had a very solid year (as did we) but they have generally been hovering around the 7-5 give or take as the rest. UNC is pretty good as of late with Mac back again, but still not much better than slightly above average. FSU has been mediocre at best as well. Then there's Duke, not a powerhouse on the gridiron either as they are in hoops. Therefore, I just don't see where this conference with Dino, is that much more difficult then when Doug was here.

 

[djorange1989]

Here are the first 4 year strength of schedules from Sagarin of Robinson, Marrone, and Babers with 3 years from Shafer:

Robinson:
2005: 42, played 4 ranked opponents and no FCS
2006: 14, played 4 ranked opponents and no FCS
2007: 32, 4 ranked opponents and no FCS
2008: 34, 3 ranked opponents and no FCS

Marrone:
2009: 36, 4 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2010: 73, 1 ranked opponent and 1 FCS
2011: 55, 1 ranked opponent and 1 FCS
2012: 45, 3 ranked opponents and 1 FCS

Babers:
2016: 8, 4 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2017: 8, 3 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2018: 61, 3 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2019: 73, 1 ranked opponent and 1 FCS

Shafer:
2013: 57, 3 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2014: 41, 4 ranked opponents and 1 FCS
2015: 39, 4 ranked opponents and 1 FCS

Schedule Strength Ranked by season (record):
2016: 8 Babers (4-8)
2017: 8 Babers (4-8)
2006: 14 Robinson (4-8)
2007: 32 Robinson (2-10)
2008: 34 Robinson (3-9)
2009: 36 Marrone (4-8)
2015: 39 Shafer (4-8)
2014: 41 Shafer (3-9)
2005: 42 Robinson (1-10)
2012: 45 Marrone (8-5)
2011: 55 Marrone (5-7)
2013: 57 Shafer (7-6)
2018: 61 Babers (10-3)
2010: 73 Marrone (8-5)
2019: 73 Babers (5-7)

My takeaways:

1) GRob played the hardest average schedule, but his results were poor. Record would have been better if Syracuse played one FCS team per year.
2) Babers had the hardest 2 SOS seasons and Syracuse was 4-8 both years.
3) Babers 2018 and 2019 teams faced two of the 3 easiest schedules in the last 15 years.

shows what a complete blown opportunity 2019 was. FSU, Maryland, NC State were all stiffs that should have been wins, no excuse for not being at least 8-4 with that crap schedule. I am much angrier about 2019 than I am about this year. not that 2020 has been anything but awful...

 

[TheCusian]

That’s where we are not on the same page... I am judging him based on 5 years and 1 winning season. And those SEC schools you are referring to are South Carolina and Vandy, not the cream of the crop.

Year 1 usually doesn’t count, but we did beat VaTech while playing the 4th toughest schedule in 46 years

Year 2 we took down #2 Clemson and lost our QB to injury

Year 3 ten wins, pretty good - hadn’t happened since 2001.

Year 4 new OL coach, first year starter, OL injuries - but I think it’s really fair to be quite critical of the coaching and so did Dino as we got new QB/OC and DC and a few other changes

Year 5 blowed up due to global pandemic, OL injuries, etc etc

All while in the ACC playing a tougher schedule than anyone since P. I don’t know if the story “1 winning season, 1 bowl win I’ve seen enough” tells the whole story

 

[PatMark]

so we were so unprepared we took it down to the last play, which is it?

inept has nothing to do with being prepared if you dont have the horses..

I think you can prepare your team to overcome ineptness but Dino and staff are too stubborn to change what they do.

And you're right, we don't have the horses...in year FIVE...

 

[Bulldog04]

Yes, Dino will get another year.

Did you get today's email from SU's Development Office? SU has raised nearly $1 billion during this period, en route to their $1.5 billion goal. So, don't even start telling me money is problem.

Yup and act like they are completely poor.

 

[upperdeck]

I think you can prepare your team to overcome ineptness but Dino and staff are too stubborn to change what they do.

And you're right, we don't have the horses...in year FIVE...

but we dont even know that.. what would 4-5 more o line guys mean? maybe one doesnt play hurt all yr? maybe or FB doesnt play oline all yr..

and you really dont see how much we changed our offense at all?

 

[upperdeck]

Yup and act like they are completely poor.

and who is donating that money and for what projects? its a separate bucket

 

[Cusefan69]

People should reread JWs comments again about Dino, this year and 2021. While he does not come out and say covid is the issue, he makes it abundantly clear that this has been a challenging year. His words. He also wisely indicated you don't make emotional decisions and many on this board seem to get emotional with the H0T Takes. It's been a tough season, JW will talk with Dino about after it's done. He will be clear I am positive on what needs to happen and then we will see what happens in 2021. Simple as that folks.

 

[PatMark]

but we dont even know that.. what would 4-5 more o line guys mean? maybe one doesnt play hurt all yr? maybe or FB doesnt play oline all yr..

and you really dont see how much we changed our offense at all?

Not much. I still see Rex throwing the ball 30 times a game when he was recruited as a dual threat QB. He's a big bruising body that is much more built for this offense (i.e. Dungey) but he can't throw. Why not run him more instead of forcing him to consistently do something he isn't good at.

 

[TheCusian]

The only comparison I made to 2005 was that we are going to finish with the same record.

We just can't keep saying this season doesn't matter because of Covid. It absolutely matters. Dino is still earning his full paycheck. Yet this team doesn't look prepared and is inept on offense every week. Injuries happen. I really only count one opt out (Trill) since Cisco was hurt. Adams/Howard aren't winning games by themselves. We are in the same boat as everyone else!

I’m getting tired. But if you took the top 2 NFL prospects from any team that is not a top program like Clemson or Alabama, it will hurt your results. Now throw in 2 new coordinators. No camp. No easy wins to see what you got. Start down a 2-3 on the OL two deep. Get your QB hurt. You’re left with a senior who was once moved to TE and two kids who just got to school in the middle of a pandemic. We’re playing more freshman than any time in our history against the 4th toughest schedule in the last 49 seasons

This is not the same boat as everyone else. I’m not complaining. I see all these kids getting experience and the NCAA suspending the eligibility clock and also allowing transfers to move more easily as an opportunity.

 

[TheCusian]

I'd like to see one of those charts for this? The ACC (taking away Clemson) is a very mediocre/average at best football conference. The Pitt's, BC's, NCST's, Wake's, VPI, have consistently been pretty average, no? I know a couple years back Miami had a very solid year (as did we) but they have generally been hovering around the 7-5 give or take as the rest. UNC is pretty good as of late with Mac back again, but still not much better than slightly above average. FSU has been mediocre at best as well. Then there's Duke, not a powerhouse on the gridiron either as they are in hoops. Therefore, I just don't see where this conference with Dino, is that much more difficult then when Doug was here.

I can do that, sometime. Just running out of time today to play with charts. The modern ACC is better than the late era Big East by a good margin.

 

[TheCusian]

I think you can prepare your team to overcome ineptness but Dino and staff are too stubborn to change what they do.

And you're right, we don't have the horses...in year FIVE...

we’re starting a bunch of freshman - how do you portion out blame between coaching and 18 year olds who shouldn’t be playing yet?

 

[syrBossHogg]

I'd like to see one of those charts for this? The ACC (taking away Clemson) is a very mediocre/average at best football conference. The Pitt's, BC's, NCST's, Wake's, VPI, have consistently been pretty average, no? I know a couple years back Miami had a very solid year (as did we) but they have generally been hovering around the 7-5 give or take as the rest. UNC is pretty good as of late with Mac back again, but still not much better than slightly above average. FSU has been mediocre at best as well. Then there's Duke, not a powerhouse on the gridiron either as they are in hoops. Therefore, I just don't see where this conference with Dino, is that much more difficult then when Doug was here.

The ACC is average compared to the Big Ten/SEC but it's a clear step up than the Big East when we left. Pitt and Louisville were at the top competing for the Big East crown in the Marrone days and we struggled to beat them. They haven't come close to winning the ACC outside of maybe one year each. FSU will always have more speed and size than us and will always be a tough game unless it's a 2018 situation. And your point about Clemson would be better if we weren't in the same division every year as them.

 

[orangecuse]

we’re starting a bunch of freshman - how do you portion out blame between coaching and 18 year olds who shouldn’t be playing yet?

I don't think you can portion out blame to our players "who shouldn't be playing yet." It rests 100% on the head coach since he's 100% responsible for the roster he recruits, assembles and develops.

 

[PatMark]

we’re starting a bunch of freshman - how do you portion out blame between coaching and 18 year olds who shouldn’t be playing yet?

The coaches are paid millions (Dino) or hundreds of thousands (the assistants) to figure it out.

My original point to this entire thread is you can't move the goalpost and decide because we are going to finish 1-11 this season shouldn't count. If we were 11-1 it would count. If we were 6-6 it would count.