If ever there was a time to deep six the zone...

[Flacusian]

This my fellow Syracuse fans... is IT!

 

[Jack Hall]

Two questions: 1) do we get to vote on it?
2) can Hop veto our vote?

 

[orange79]

Hey look!! A THREAD ABOUT THE ZONE!!!! How novel!

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Coach in the post game pressor "we can't play man to man and we can't press"

well buddy, I dont know if you've noticed, but you can't play zone either.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I'm right handed. I couldn't hit an Aroldis Chapman fastball even if I kept both eyes open.

Why do people think I should try left handed instead?

 

[RF2044]

I'm right handed. I couldn't hit an Aroldis Chapman fastball even if I kept both eyes open.

Why do people think I should try left handed instead?

Agreed. We've gotten to that point where people advocate throwing sh-t against the wall to see if it sticks.

 

[Alsacs]

Agreed. We've gotten to that point where people advocate throwing sh-t against the wall to see if it sticks.

Gillon and White have played m2m their whole careers.
Thompson/Coleman can't play in the middle of the zone.
Lydon was really really really bad on the wing against BC.
These players can't play JB's zone. If the D was okay
then people wouldn't really be clamoring for us to change.
JB's zone with proper personnel works. This team like the 08-09 team are better at m2m or atleast trying it.
Playing zone exclusive and the press is just dumb with this team.

Also I have heard numerous time on this board rebellions are built on hope. Hope is all we have.

 

[jordoo]

Agreed. We've gotten to that point where people advocate throwing sh-t against the wall to see if it sticks.

No doubt. The zone is very bad however. It makes good perimeter players look great and it seems every game at least one guy has a career shooting night against it. I'm sure since we don't practice man we would also be bad in that at this point however. There is no connection within the zone between players rotating. When that happens its easy pickings.

The guard play is also simply really bad all around right now no matter how you cut it. White is not a guard plane and simple, he doesn't even really have the ball skills of a SF IMO.
Gillon's size leads to a bunch of issues plus he seems hesitant to shoot open shots he makes against lessor competition. He is slow to initiate the halfcourt offense but at least he does usually get something going by the 12sec mark.
Battle is young and I think his foot injury issues have effected his slashing game greatly. He has a bright future and shoots it well but would benefit greatly by playing with some legit guards.
Howard, I just don't know what to say. He has lost all confidence offensively from what I see. He can't initiate the offense in the half court. He is more lost defensively in the zone than any guard I can remember. He plays like he is shell shocked all the time and unfortunately it reminds me of Joseph early last year. I think he is better than he is showing but I have no idea if any sort of on court success is even salvageable with him this year the way he is playing.

 

[Brooky03]

I never thought I'd leave the 'stick with the zone through thick and thin' camp, but my opinion is that m2m can't be worse. It literally can't be worse than the swiss cheese defense we're throwing out there right now. If JB doesn't at least try switching to m2m for stretches during games this season, it tells me one thing: He's basically giving up hope that we'll make the tournament this year and just looking forward to building a foundation for the returning guys next year. Even if it's not a conscious decision to give up on the season, the situation would still be hopeless nonetheless.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I'm right handed. I couldn't hit an Aroldis Chapman fastball even if I kept both eyes open.

Why do people think I should try left handed instead?

Not the same thing. You're talking skill vs strategy. 95% of the NCAA D1 teams play man mix in a zone as needed.

But whatever, Syracuse can continue playing a complex zone with the wrong personnel and continue getting whomped on. Good luck getting solid 5th years next season once they've seen what happened this year. Who is going to want to come to Syracuse with aspirations of the NBA and spend all of the practice time trying to learn 2-3 years worth of zone rotations - an illegal defense in the NBA - in two months just so they can get thumped and thrown under the bus to the media by a lame duck head coach. Honestly? You think other coaches aren't using this to recruit negatively?

 

[RF2044]

No doubt. The zone is very bad however. It makes good perimeter players look great and it seems every game at least one guy has a career shooting night against it. I'm sure since we don't practice man we would also be bad in that at this point however. There is no connection within the zone between players rotating. When that happens its easy pickings.

The guard play is also simply really bad all around right now no matter how you cut it. White is not a guard plane and simple, he doesn't even really have the ball skills of a SF IMO.
Gillon's size leads to a bunch of issues plus he seems hesitant to shoot open shots he makes against lessor competition. He is slow to initiate the halfcourt offense but at least he does usually get something going by the 12sec mark.
Battle is young and I think his foot injury issues have effected his slashing game greatly. He has a bright future and shoots it well but would benefit greatly by playing with some legot guards.
Howard, I just don't know what to say. He has lost all confidence offensively from what I see. He can't initiate the offense in the half court. He is more lost defensively in the zone than any guard I can remember. He plays like he is shell shocked all the time and unfortunately it reminds me of Joseph early last year. I think he is better than he is showing but I have no idea if any sort of on court success is even salvageable with him this year the way he is playing.

Agree across the board. College basketball is a guard driven sport, and our backcourt just isn't getting the job done.

Howard is a complete mess, and has really regressed. Gillon is much better offensively than Howard, but has been a liability as a playmaker which offsets whatever advantage we'd gain from him being a better scorer. Battle was being counted upon to be a difference maker, and just hasn't been.

When your backcourt is subpar, it is tough to compete even when you're playing well. Unfortunately, the warning signs were evident early on when this team consistently had poor execution in the first few games. Very frustrating situation. Feels like the team has also quit more than once in games.

 

[RF2044]

I never thought I'd leave the 'stick with the zone through thick and thin' camp, but my opinion is that m2m can't be worse. It literally can't be worse than the swiss cheese defense we're throwing out there right now. If JB doesn't at least try switching to m2m for stretches during games this season, it tells me one thing: He's basically giving up hope that we'll make the tournament this year and just looking forward to building a foundation for the returning guys next year. Even if it's not a conscious decision to give up on the season, the situation would still be hopeless nonetheless.

You're right--it probably can't be worse, but it can certainly be equally as bad.

When things go horribly wrong, there is often a knee jerk tendency to DO SOMETHING, when in fact the season just might not be salvageable. This team, this collection of players, just stinks. They could switch to man and it wouldn't make a bit of difference, other than to mollify some fans temporarily that "change" had been made.

 

[knicks07]

Not the same thing. You're talking skill vs strategy. 95% of the NCAA D1 teams play man mix in a zone as needed.

But whatever, Syracuse can continue playing a complex zone with the wrong personnel and continue getting whomped on. Good luck getting solid 5th years next season once they've seen what happened this year. Who is going to want to come to Syracuse with aspirations of the NBA and spend all of the practice time trying to learn 2-3 years worth of zone rotations - an illegal defense in the NBA - in two months just so they can get thumped and thrown under the bus to the media by a lame duck head coach. Honestly? You think other coaches aren't using this to recruit negatively?

Zone defense, although rarely used, is not illegal in the NBA.

 

[Alsacs]

You're right--it probably can't be worse, but it can certainly be equally as bad.

When things go horribly wrong, there is often a knee jerk tendency to DO SOMETHING, when in fact the season just might not be salvageable. This team, this collection of players, just stinks. They could switch to man and it wouldn't make a bit of difference, other than to mollify some fans temporarily that "change" had been made.

If we try something different then then coach has done his job to try and help the team when they are struggling.
Doing something that hasn't worked and isn't going to work and not trying something else is just being stubborn.
Playing man to man against the athletes BC has is not hard. Playing man to man against UNC/Duke/Kentucky teams is dumb.

 

[RF2044]

If we try something different then then coach has done his job to try and help the team when they are struggling.
Doing something that hasn't worked and isn't going to work and not trying something else is just being stubborn.
Playing man to man against the athletes BC has is not hard. Playing man to man against UNC/Duke/Kentucky teams is dumb.

I'm not opposed to the coach doing something different. I think it was a great move to go with Thompson over Coleman in the starting lineup, for example. But advocating doing something that the team doesn't practice is not a strategy--it is a panicky reaction from a frustrated fanbase.

If we were a team that played multiple defenses, then it wouldn't be so far fetched of a suggestion. I.E., play more man than zone. But we don't, so it is -- no matter how much people would like to pretend otherwise.

And it isn't just this thread. It is the numerous lineup change threads advocating stuff like Battle to the 1, and shifting White / Lydon back to 2 / 3, where both were completely ineffectual earlier in the season.

Which is why most of this is akin to throwing sh-t at the wall. Sometimes, you just can't polish a turd. Doing a bunch of busy tweaks in hopes that something sticks won't change that.

 

[Fly Rodder]

You're right--it probably can't be worse, but it can certainly be equally as bad.

Why? These guys have been playing man in one form or another for their entire careers. Most have only been playing zone for a few months. Maybe if they worked on man instead of trying to turn some very disparate parts into a good zone D, they wouldn't be horrible at it. I don't know, the zone is wonderful when there are players that fit and they've have had time to learn it. Chukwu had a full season of practices and looked absolutely lost out there. White was going to pick up all the rotations in two months? Gillon is athletic, but he's not even close to Flynn and Flynn had serious troubles with the zone due to his size his freshman year until he had another year to learn it. Lydon hasn't played a consistent position in his career yet. Roberson, I don't even know what happened with him. Thanks to his knees being held together with bubblegum and duct tape, Coleman can't protect the rim which is the primary responsibility of 5 in JAB's zone. Battle is about the only player that fits, and he's got a bum foot.

 

[RF2044]

Why? These guys have been playing man in one form or another for their entire careers. Most have only been playing zone for a few months. Maybe if they worked on man instead of trying to turn some very disparate parts into a good zone D, they wouldn't be horrible at it. I don't know, the zone is wonderful when there are players that fit and they've have had time to learn it. Chukwu had a full season of practices and looked absolutely lost out there. White was going to pick up all the rotations in two months? Gillon is athletic, but he's not even close to Flynn and Flynn had serious troubles with the zone due to his size his freshman year until he had another year to learn it. Lydon hasn't played a consistent position in his career yet. Roberson, I don't even know what happened with him. Thanks to his knees being held together with bubblegum and duct tape, Coleman can't protect the rim which is the primary responsibility of 5 in JAB's zone. Battle is about the only player that fits, and he's got a bum foot.

Because this group of players sucks defensively, and they're soft. That's why.

Switching to man wouldn't make one lick of difference.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We've changed the lineup so much I really don't think another change there will help or hurt.

Not sure why we play Thompson in the middle and Lydon on the wing, unless the coaches think Thompson is too slow for the wing. Lydon is the better shot blocker. You can tell he isn't used to playing the wing.

We had so many breakdowns against BC where 2 guys went to the same side.

I think we should try man if Hopkins is going to play it in the future. I actually wish Hopkins would take over now so he could at least implement his system. Don't see JB stepping down though especially in the middle of this mess, but I would like Hop to be able to show recruits that he's willing to play a different style than JB.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Zone defense, although rarely used, is not illegal in the NBA.

You're correct, thanks for pointing that out. And we can see how the NBA fell in love with using it once it was made legal.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Because this group of players sucks defensively, and they're soft. That's why.

Switching to man wouldn't make one lick of difference.

Then the coaches have quit on the team.

 

[newmexicuse]

This team plays very lethargically, just maybe switching to man would affect the energy level.

 

[RF2044]

Then the coaches have quit on the team.

Not following that logic, but okay.

 

[Brooky03]

You're right--it probably can't be worse, but it can certainly be equally as bad.

When things go horribly wrong, there is often a knee jerk tendency to DO SOMETHING, when in fact the season just might not be salvageable. This team, this collection of players, just stinks. They could switch to man and it wouldn't make a bit of difference, other than to mollify some fans temporarily that "change" had been made.

But why not at least try it? There's that saying about insanity; it's insane to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results. Why not sprinkle in m2m for a little bit here and there and just see what happens? Either it sucks just as bad as the zone (we've established it can't be worse) or it's better by some margin. The problem with the zone is that we're leaving guys wide open. We unquestionably have the size and athleticism to at least stay within arms reach of players in m2m.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Not following that logic, but okay.

Leaders lead. You win with your guys. If they're not responding, you don't give up, and say these guys suck.

You pull that in the military and you'll never get promoted past 0-3.

 

[RF2044]

This team plays very lethargically, just maybe switching to man would affect the energy level.

Good thought, but given how they press...

Or rather, given how ineffectually they press, I'm not sure that we'd get that boon. This group seems to just go through the motions.