If ever there was a time to deep six the zone...

[RF2044]

Leaders lead. You win with your guys. If they're not responding, you don't give up, and say these guys suck.

You pull that . . . . in the military and you'll never get promoted past 0-3.

And sometimes you lose with your guys, too. This is the first time in 41 years under Boeheim that we have a team that will likely have a losing record. I'm not remotely worried about the leadership at the top, or JB's coaching aptitude. He hasn't suddenly forgotten how to coach a team effectively months after making a final four.

I do think it is in bounds to question his energy level at this stage of his career, what the staff is doing on the recruiting trail, etc. But coaching acumen or desire to win? Nah.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think guys like White and Thompson especially will be bad in any defense they play because White really isn't an athlete and Thompson just doesn't like to play defense. I'm willing to switch, but I think any defense we play will stink because we have a personnel problem.

 

[RF2044]

I think guys like White and Thompson especially will be bad in any defense they play because White really isn't an athlete and Thompson just doesn't like to play defense. I'm willing to switch, but I think any defense we play will stink because we have a personnel problem.

Agree 100%.

 

[Alsacs]

I'm not opposed to the coach doing something different. I think it was a great move to go with Thompson over Coleman in the starting lineup, for example. But advocating doing something that the team doesn't practice is not a strategy--it is a panicky reaction from a frustrated fanbase.

If we were a team that played multiple defenses, then it wouldn't be so far fetched of a suggestion. I.E., play more man than zone. But we don't, so it is -- no matter how much people would like to pretend otherwise.

And it isn't just this thread. It is the numerous lineup change threads advocating stuff like Battle to the 1, and shifting White / Lydon back to 2 / 3, where both were completely ineffectual earlier in the season.

Which is why most of this is akin to throwing sh-t at the wall. Sometimes, you just can't polish a turd. Doing a bunch of busy tweaks in hopes that something sticks won't change that.

All I will say is that these kids don't need more than 1-2 practices together to play m2m.
Each guy takes their guy and the bigs learn pick and roll defense.
I am not expecting the ball pressure Duke does or the on ball that Louisville does.
Just standard man to man and box out your guy on tbe boards.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Good thought, but given how they press...

Or rather, given how ineffectually they press, I'm not sure that we'd get that boon. This group seems to just go through the motions.

JB unfortunately doesn't know how to instill good fundamentals whether it's man or press. That being said it can't be any worse than what we've witnessed from the zone and would give some fans a reason to tune back in.

 

[pfister1]

You're right--it probably can't be worse, but it can certainly be equally as bad.

When things go horribly wrong, there is often a knee jerk tendency to DO SOMETHING, when in fact the season just might not be salvageable. This team, this collection of players, just stinks. They could switch to man and it wouldn't make a bit of difference, other than to mollify some fans temporarily that "change" had been made.

In my view it is kind of like having a team of guys that can't shoot from beyond 12 feet, but continuing to allow them to base their offense on shooting from the 3 point arc. If your personnel is incapable of doing something why not try something different? In this case the team seems incapable of mastering the complexities of the zone. The way it has been cut to shreds by relatively poor competition leaves me speechless. It also tells me that we need to try something else. They may not be a good man to man team either, but if nothing else switching back and forth between man and zone might help to keep our opponent off balance or make it a little bit tougher to attack our defense. How could it be any worse, we gave up 93 points to St. Johns and 96 to BC? I suppose we could play man and end up in lots of foul trouble, that might end up with a worse result.

 

[RF2044]

And BTW, none of my posts are meant as disrespect to the OP, flacusian, who is a terrific poster. I just don't happen to agree with the premise.

 

[Flacusian]

I've heard, " Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" = the definition of insanity.

 

[Jack Hall]

This my fellow Syracuse fans... is IT!

I am going to officially vote NO. The good news for me is JB almost certainly wont veto my vote. The bad news is Hop someday might...

 

[manleyzoo]

Boeheim has become the champion of Can't. He should trademark Boeheim's Can't. He never publicly says why we can't play M2M, we just can't. I guess that means he sees it in practice and decides we can't. But then he also says we spend almost all of practice working on the zone so by association that means we can't.

He's said the same thing about every team we've had since the mid-90s. We can't no matter what quality of athletes we have on the roster. Somehow they just can't take a guy and check him. Almost the entire college basketball world plays M2M in one form or another all the way down to D3 but somehow even with elite athletes we can't. I've never quite understood that one other than he can't teach it.

I learned something new from him on recruiting this year, too. There's a can't in there as well. You can't recruit multiple players for one position at the same time. Why? Because you might hurt your main recruit's feelings so you just can't.

As a person of the older persuasion, one thing I've learned in all these years is when you repeatedly say you can't what you really mean is you personally can't. Not that others around you can't, it's that you can't. The less fearful among us older folk never say can't because we prefer 'why not' to can't any day. Can't makes you feel older, why not makes you feel younger.

 

[Flacusian]

And BTW, none of my posts are meant as disrespect to the OP, flaucasian, who is a terrific poster. I just don't happen to agree with the premise.

No offense taken RF. I wasn't necessarily recommending that would be the course of action to take... I was more inferring that with the situation as it currently exists...there has never been a time before where switching to M2M could actually be a pervasive option.

The bottom line is that this team needs to play better... in all phases of the game, both as individuals and as a team. I'm still not sold on the premise that the current team, as it's composed, is incapable of grasping and executing the zone defense in a fashion which would allow some modicum of success. JB's early pre sesaon comments would indicate that he believed he could get this current formula with the current ingredients to be not only successful... but highly successful.

Just what is the root cause of not being able to get those results is still not completely clear. I've heard a few theories but I can't say anyone outside the immediate program knows for sure.

 

[TheGov3304]

I don't see Jim ever switching from the zone in the remainder of his coaching career. And what has happened to Frank? Last year in the tournament he provided meaningful, productive minutes making plays. I don't understand it at all, has to be between the temples.

 

[Jack Hall]

No offense taken RF. I wasn't necessarily recommending that would be the course of action to take... I was more inferring that with the situation as it currently exists...there has never been a time before where switching to M2M could actually be a pervasive option.

The bottom line is that this team needs to play better... in all phases of the game, both as individuals and as a team. I'm still not sold on the premise that the current team, as it's composed, is incapable of grasping and executing the zone defense in a fashion which would allow some modicum of success. JB's early pre sesaon comments would indicate that he believed he could get this current formula with the current ingredients to be not only successful... but highly successful.

Just what is the root cause of not being able to get those results is still not completely clear. I've heard a few theories but I can't say anyone outside the immediate program knows for sure.

Read Baysides posts if you havent already, has given me the most clarity. Things can and probably will be slightly improved as the season crawls along, but imo it wont be easy

 

[AZOrange]

I'm right handed. I couldn't hit an Aroldis Chapman fastball even if I kept both eyes open.

Why do people think I should try left handed instead?

Here's your false equivalence though: you didn't grow up batting left handed. I'm not advocating a dissolution of the zone altogether. I want a team that can adjust when things aren't working. It's not like BC was making crazy shots and it's a question of regressing to the mean...the zone was allowing WIDE open looks, inside and outside.

 

[SoBristol]

...

Just what is the root cause of not being able to get those results is still not completely clear. I've heard a few theories but I can't say anyone outside the immediate program knows for sure.

After 14 games, seeing every possible combination on the court, I would say it is more than theories.
The bigs don't defend well inside -- the guards and wings aren't stopping penetration or stopping the opponent's best shooters from getting open threes. When we press, the opponents easily get the ball up the court because our defenders aren't quick enough to get steals. Every player is trying (per my observations).

 

[AirForceOrange]

I don't think it would matter what defense this team employs...They have played two different styles this year, the zone and press, neither have been effective...what would make me think that m2m would be different? I have said since the first losses, that the biggest issue with this team is chemistry and leadership. Not enough veterans of the zone, too many new faces to it...

The chemistry is not there on defense AND offense. That is a personnel problem, not a system problem. We have seen seasons where a Syracuse team has struggled offensively, been always been right there because of the their tough defense...and they were playing zone. What does this say? It says the system the is effective when the personnel running it put in the most effort they can and/or know what they are doing. In this case, you can see the effort is not there and the experience/knowledge is not there.

IMO, if we played strictly m2m, at this point this thread would be about dropping m2m and switching to zone...

 

[RF2044]

I don't think it would matter what defense this team employs...They have played two different styles this year, the zone and press, neither have been effective...what would make me think that m2m would be different? I have said since the first losses, that the biggest issue with this team is chemistry and leadership. Not enough veterans of the zone, too many new faces to it...

The chemistry is not there on defense AND offense. That is a personnel problem, not a system problem. We have seen seasons where a Syracuse team has struggled offensively, been always been right there because of the their tough defense...and they were playing zone. What does this say? It says the system the is effective when the personnel running it put in the most effort they can and/or know what they are doing. In this case, you can see the effort is not there and the experience/knowledge is not there.

IMO, if we played strictly m2m, at this point this thread would be about dropping m2m and switching to zone...

Good post, across the board.

 

[AirForceOrange]

To add: IMO, each player taken individually is at least a good player, however put together as a team, they are not good.

 

[Alsacs]

If we don't change and continue to get blown out it would be beyond frustrating.
Jim Boeheim can be wrong sometimes. If he doesn't think we can switch defenses within a game that is just stupid logic.
Nobody wants us to change 100%. However instead of playing m2m down 20 points change it earlier.

 

[AirForceOrange]

If we don't change and continue to get blown out it would be beyond frustrating.
Jim Boeheim can be wrong sometimes. If he doesn't think we can switch defenses within a game that is just stupid logic.
Nobody wants us to change 100%. However instead of playing m2m down 20 points change it earlier.

The thing is...if this team has been practicing zone 100% of the time and can't play it effectively, what makes anyone think that they can play m2m? They can't play zone very well right now and when they press it is not effective, that is 2 of 3 of your main defenses...

I am all for trying something different if what are you are doing is now working...however, I would be fairly pessimistic on their effectiveness of m2m when their record with the other 2 defenses is not good...

 

[iommi]

I don't think it would matter what defense this team employs...They have played two different styles this year, the zone and press, neither have been effective...what would make me think that m2m would be different? I have said since the first losses, that the biggest issue with this team is chemistry and leadership. Not enough veterans of the zone, too many new faces to it...

The chemistry is not there on defense AND offense. That is a personnel problem, not a system problem. We have seen seasons where a Syracuse team has struggled offensively, been always been right there because of the their tough defense...and they were playing zone. What does this say? It says the system the is effective when the personnel running it put in the most effort they can and/or know what they are doing. In this case, you can see the effort is not there and the experience/knowledge is not there.

IMO, if we played strictly m2m, at this point this thread would be about dropping m2m and switching to zone...

It's a great post but here's where I think it's off-base. Our zone relies on all parts working together. I'm not saying m2m doesn't, but with our zone all the moving parts need to be working in concert. It's very hard to get that chemistry when you have all of these chemistry and leadership issues you spoke of.

With m2m, it's a little different. I have to think that a defense they've been playing since they were in grammar school might make the players a little more comfortable. Of course, wee have to decide how we are going to play man (whether to hedge and the like) but the concepts are the same.

My issue is JB's lack of flexibility to switch out of a defense he's repeatedly acknowledged this team cannot play. He's played m2m some but only when the games have been out of reach and the team already pretty much defeated.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I don't think it would matter what defense this team employs...They have played two different styles this year, the zone and press, neither have been effective...what would make me think that m2m would be different? I have said since the first losses, that the biggest issue with this team is chemistry and leadership. Not enough veterans of the zone, too many new faces to it...

The chemistry is not there on defense AND offense. That is a personnel problem, not a system problem. ...

Sounds like a system problem to me. Why force a complex defense on guys who can't play it? Especially when two of the seven are only here for one season only and the eighth looked like he hadn't ever practiced zone despite being on the hill for a year.

 

[AirForceOrange]

It's a great post but here's where I think it's off-base. Our zone relies on all parts working together. I'm not saying m2m doesn't, but with out zone all the moving parts need to be working in concert. It's very hard to get that chemistry when you have all of these chemistry and leadership issues you spoke of.

With m2m, it's a little different. I have to think that a defense they've been playing since they were in grammar school might make the players a little more comfortable. Of course, wee have to decide how we are going to play man (whether to hedge and the like) but the concepts are the same.

My issue is JB's lack of flexibility to switch out of a defense he's repeatedly acknowledged this team cannot play. He's played m2m some but only when the games have been out of reach and the team already pretty much defeated.

Completely understand...As I replied to Alsacs, above, I am just pessimistic about anything working with this team this season...

It's hard to put my finger on it, but when I watch this team, it doesn't look like they are having fun, especially in the wins...I can understand not having fun in the losses...but it's like they are just going through the motions. There doesn't seem to be any excitement, charisma, character, something with this team is just off...

I don't know if there are locker room issues...but have a good idea there are leadership issues at least...

 

[AirForceOrange]

Sounds like a system problem to me. Why force a complex defense on guys who can't play it? Especially when two of the seven are only here for one season only and the eighth looked like he hadn't ever practiced zone despite being on the hill for a year.

None of these players were forced to come and play at Syracuse. When recruited either directly out of HS or a grad transfer, they knew they would be playing zone...they still chose to come to Syracuse to play...If they are skilled, knowledgeable players and most importantly truly willing to play the style presented to them, the system wouldn't matter...therefore it is a personnel problem.

EDIT: My guess is that these players said they could and would play it and JB and the coaches thought the same...the problem is it turned out to be otherwise...We know from past teams, teams that have won championships and gone to Final Fours that the zone is an effective defense...why all of sudden, this year is it not? What is the difference? It is not the system or coaches...

 

[realorange]

Why? These guys have been playing man in one form or another for their entire careers. Most have only been playing zone for a few months. Maybe if they worked on man instead of trying to turn some very disparate parts into a good zone D, they wouldn't be horrible at it. I don't know, the zone is wonderful when there are players that fit and they've have had time to learn it. Chukwu had a full season of practices and looked absolutely lost out there. White was going to pick up all the rotations in two months? Gillon is athletic, but he's not even close to Flynn and Flynn had serious troubles with the zone due to his size his freshman year until he had another year to learn it. Lydon hasn't played a consistent position in his career yet. Roberson, I don't even know what happened with him. Thanks to his knees being held together with bubblegum and duct tape, Coleman can't protect the rim which is the primary responsibility of 5 in JAB's zone. Battle is about the only player that fits, and he's got a bum foot.

OK So you've got Coleman with bad knees, making it difficult to move. You have Battle in a similar situation with his foot. Then there is Gillon who with his size would be over powered by the majority of ACC guards. TT is a question mark as is Howard. White moves slightly quicker than molasses. That leaves a good defender in Roberson.

With this collection of ability, how in the world would they play effective M2M.

Zone at least can cover up some deficiencies if most are playing correctly. Let's try for the correctly part.