If ever there was a time to deep six the zone...

[Alsacs]

Yet when we sell kids on the NBA and they end up "one and done" (McCullough, Ennis, Richardson) everyone's mad that they leave early.

No fan should ever care if the kids leave early. They make zero dollars at SU. The blame goes to the staff for not ever being ahead of the curve. Again we have 3 open scholarships for next year and this team could lose players on the current roster and we have no plans to fill those spots beyond Ayala reclassifying.
The blame for our mess is on our coaching staff which is paid. They can be criticized.
Hope is what rebellions are on built on.

 

[RF2044]

No fan should ever care if the kids leave early. They make zero dollars at SU. The blame goes to the staff for not ever being ahead of the curve. Again we have 3 open scholarships for next year and this team could lose players on the current roster and we have no plans to fill those spots beyond Ayala reclassifying.
The blame for our mess is on our coaching staff which is paid. They can be criticized.
Hope is what rebellions are on built on.

I agree--the buck stops with the coach--but the roster issue is multi-dimensional. The one and dones departures we've had [and I'll lump Grant in here, too, even though he was a second year guy] have hurt us in a lot of respects, because those guys weren't transcendent talents that could really impact our program. I know, I know -- Ennis was pretty good, without Richardson we don't get to the final four last year, etc. -- but the majority of "top" talent we get are just a cut below the truly elite blue chippers.

These guys are good enough to warrant late NBA consideration [Ennis, McCullough, Richardson, Donte Greene, Grant], but aren't good enough to take the program to the next level, like a truly elite talent would. Which makes their departures a double edged sword, because [1] their departures are semi-unexpected, and [2] they leave because their talent enables them to get drafted, but do so before blossoming to the point where they'd truly make a program changing impact. Imagine how good we might have been if Greene had returned for the 2009 season, replacing Kristof Onganeat in the lineup... or how much better we would have been in 2016 if McCullough had returned to bolster our frontcourt / play alongside Lydon last year... or if Ennis had returned to play on the 2014 that lacked a PG but had a terrific post who had a great senior year [Rak]?

It's a tough spot to be in--we aren't landing elite blue chippers like Duke and UK, and the upper echelon talent we DO land are just good enough to attract NBA attention / leave early, despite not being able to put the team on their backs. I'm not suggesting that we need to stop recruiting these guys, but there's something to be said about getting high major four star talent and letting those guys develop over 3-4 years, where they are often the equivalent of higher rated frosh [example: senior CJ Fair versus freshman Jabari Parker]. I'd like to see us recruit a lot more like 'Nova -- get good prospects, get plenty of guard depth, and cultivate it over time. Don't put yourself in a position where you're left holding the bag and scrambling to replace players that leave ahead of expected. More four year program guys with high upside. I think we would have been better off landing Alex Tyus [who was a three year starter at Florida] over Donte Green, who was only here one year, for example. Ditto Monte Morris instead of Ennis [even though we could have had both].

Unrelated problem, but I also don't get why our coaching staff has turned away players interested in coming here -- especially backcourt guys. We'd sure look better with Kobi Simmons in our backcourt this year. To say nothing of Monte Morris or Jaquon Newton. Or even Isaiah Washington this year. All players we could have had if the coaches would have stepped up.

 

[Alsacs]

I agree--the buck stops with the coach--but the roster issue is multi-dimensional. The one and dones departures we've had [and I'll lump Grant in here, too, even though he was a second year guy] have hurt us in a lot of respects, because those guys weren't transcendent talents that could really impact our program. I know, I know -- Ennis was pretty good, without Richardson we don't get to the final four last year, etc. -- but the majority of "top" talent we get are just a cut below the truly elite blue chippers.

These guys are good enough to warrant late NBA consideration [Ennis, McCullough, Richardson, Grant], but aren't good enough to take the program to the next level, like a truly elite talent would. Which makes their departures a double edged sword, because [1] their departures are semi-unexpected, and [2] they leave because their talent enables them to get drafted, but do so before blossoming to the point where they'd truly make a program changing impact.

Unrelated problem, but I also don't get why our coaching staff has turned away players interested in coming here -- especially backcourt guys. We'd sure look better with Kobi Simmons in our backcourt this year. To say nothing of Monte Morris or Jaquon Newton. Or even Isaiah Washington this year. All players we could have had if the coaches would have stepped up.

Honestly I think JB tough love hurts us with any 50/50 kid wanting to stay or go get paid.
Coach should be tough on them privately and pump their tires publicly.
I know for a fact JB's comments pissed off Ennis and his family.
McCollough was always a 1 and done. JB killing Chad Ford was dumb.
MCW and Waiters were going when their stock dictated.
Grant and Green wanted to go. The staff didn't do proper preparations for them.
Richardson was an NBA body and got his promise.
We recruit these kids and still leave open scholarships for walkons.
Sorry but JB has gotten lazy which is expected he is older and delegates a lot more. That is hurting us now.
We need change. I doubt JB wants to do it so this should be it for him. If he wants to change okay keep going but the status quo must change.

 

[Fly Rodder]

We recruit these kids and still leave open scholarships for walkons

I get this and it irritates me as well, but is this being done solely for APR? AFAIK, APR is only hurt by early departures to the NBA don't finish their spring semester. I honestly don't know what keeping a scholarship (when you're down 2 to begin with) for a senior walk-on is good for. If the staff is just doing it for APR there has to be a better way when you need all the D1 talent you can get.

 

[RF2044]

Honestly I think JB tough love hurts us with any 50/50 kid wanting to stay or go get paid.
Coach should be tough on them privately and pump their tires publicly.
I know for a fact JB's comments pissed off Ennis and his family.
McCollough was always a 1 and done. JB killing Chad Ford was dumb.
MCW and Waiters were going when their stock dictated.
Grant and Green wanted to go. The staff didn't do proper preparations for them.
Richardson was an NBA body and got his promise.
We recruit these kids and still leave open scholarships for walkons.
Sorry but JB has gotten lazy which is expected he is older and delegates a lot more. That is hurting us now.
We need change. I doubt JB wants to do it so this should be it for him. If he wants to change okay keep going but the status quo must change.

Hate to say it, but I want change, too.

And I mean clean break, go-get-a-stud-established-coach-who-doesn't-have-to-learn-on-the-job caliber change.

 

[Alsacs]

I get this and it irritates me as well, but is this being done solely for APR? AFAIK, APR is only hurt by early departures to the NBA don't finish their spring semester. I honestly don't know what keeping a scholarship (when you're down 2 to begin with) for a senior walk-on is good for. If the staff is just doing it for APR there has to be a better way when you need all the D1 talent you can get.

Kentucky has all one and dones and their APR is fine.
The APR problems were the dynasty 2007-2008 teams they didn't go to class including the kid helping the team out now and the kid better off going to Pitt.
Our HC should be able to tell the kids if you not here to graduate then just leave in good standing. Or take easy classes.we have enough easy classes that are athletes can take like health and nutrition, health awareness, general world history. To keep them eligible while their athletes.
Our APR problems were because the athletes didn't do the work in the coaching staff wasn't hard on the players and we have replaced our academic advisers from that time since our APR problems.

 

[Longtimesu]

Boeheim has become the champion of Can't. He should trademark Boeheim's Can't. He never publicly says why we can't play M2M, we just can't. I guess that means he sees it in practice and decides we can't. But then he also says we spend almost all of practice working on the zone so by association that means we can't.

He's said the same thing about every team we've had since the mid-90s. We can't no matter what quality of athletes we have on the roster. Somehow they just can't take a guy and check him. Almost the entire college basketball world plays M2M in one form or another all the way down to D3 but somehow even with elite athletes we can't. I've never quite understood that one other than he can't teach it.

I learned something new from him on recruiting this year, too. There's a can't in there as well. You can't recruit multiple players for one position at the same time. Why? Because you might hurt your main recruit's feelings so you just can't.

As a person of the older persuasion, one thing I've learned in all these years is when you repeatedly say you can't what you really mean is you personally can't. Not that others around you can't, it's that you can't. The less fearful among us older folk never say can't because we prefer 'why not' to can't any day. Can't makes you feel older, why not makes you feel younger.

Count me in the "older persuasion" group as well. "Can't" has never been in my vocabulary either. And yes, "can't" does make you feel older. I started another business at age 64, after I said, "why not."

 

[Ghost]

It's a tough spot to be in--we aren't landing elite blue chippers like Duke and UK, and the upper echelon talent we DO land are just good enough to attract NBA attention / leave early, despite not being able to put the team on their backs. I'm not suggesting that we need to stop recruiting these guys, but there's something to be said about getting high major four star talent and letting those guys develop over 3-4 years, where they are often the equivalent of higher rated frosh [example: senior CJ Fair versus freshman Jabari Parker]. I'd like to see us recruit a lot more like 'Nova -- get good prospects, get plenty of guard depth, and cultivate it over time. Don't put yourself in a position where you're left holding the bag and scrambling to replace players that leave ahead of expected. More four year program guys with high upside. I think we would have been better off landing Alex Tyus [who was a three year starter at Florida] over Donte Green, who was only here one year, for example. Ditto Monte Morris instead of Ennis [even though we could have had both].

This is true, but our fan base hates the four year guys too. Good riddance Patterson, Joseph, BJ. That was more or less the sentiment. I know sanctions played a part, but we could have kept one or two, no?

I mean, Patterson would be a gem on this team. Limited offensively, but his defense is much needed. Joseph would have been serviceable, etc...

 

[FrancoPizza]

Boeheim has become the champion of Can't. He should trademark Boeheim's Can't. He never publicly says why we can't play M2M, we just can't. I guess that means he sees it in practice and decides we can't. But then he also says we spend almost all of practice working on the zone so by association that means we can't.

He's said the same thing about every team we've had since the mid-90s. We can't no matter what quality of athletes we have on the roster. Somehow they just can't take a guy and check him. Almost the entire college basketball world plays M2M in one form or another all the way down to D3 but somehow even with elite athletes we can't. I've never quite understood that one other than he can't teach it.

I learned something new from him on recruiting this year, too. There's a can't in there as well. You can't recruit multiple players for one position at the same time. Why? Because you might hurt your main recruit's feelings so you just can't.

As a person of the older persuasion, one thing I've learned in all these years is when you repeatedly say you can't what you really mean is you personally can't. Not that others around you can't, it's that you can't. The less fearful among us older folk never say can't because we prefer 'why not' to can't any day. Can't makes you feel older, why not makes you feel younger.

And yet for so many years, many fans accepted JB's "can't list" as if it was some universal truth. When JB says "we can't" it just means he won't.

 

[jordoo]

This team plays very lethargically, just maybe switching to man would affect the energy level.

That is a legitimate reason to try IMO. From a strategic standpoint it makes little sense because they have been coached on the zone all season and seem to get worse rather than better so trying a new defense is likely going to have the same results. Of course you could use that argument to say this group has proven they cannot play zone, so why not try man.

 

[cuseinseattle]

This is true, but our fan base hates the four year guys too. Good riddance Patterson, Joseph, BJ. That was more or less the sentiment. I know sanctions played a part, but we could have kept one or two, no?

I mean, Patterson would be a gem on this team. Limited offensively, but his defense is much needed. Joseph would have been serviceable, etc...

I don't know how serviceable Joseph would have been. Patterson wouldn't stop shooting. So it's no just he was limited but he refused to accept his limits. I agree that Morris was a mistake and there have been others but some people are taking it a little too far.

 

[NineOneSeven]

The thing is...if this team has been practicing zone 100% of the time and can't play it effectively, what makes anyone think that they can play m2m? They can't play zone very well right now and when they press it is not effective, that is 2 of 3 of your main defenses...

I am all for trying something different if what are you are doing is now working...however, I would be fairly pessimistic on their effectiveness of m2m when their record with the other 2 defenses is not good...

I think that's the point

Man defense we don't practice - bad
Zone defense we practice - bad

So... Which is worse? Both are bad, but which is worse?

 

[NineOneSeven]

Easier to change system to fit players than to change players to fit system.

Current on the court play is a combo of a lot of things.

Obviously we are all spoiled as syracuse fans- I mean, no losing seasons for how long? Amazing.

That said... Prior success doesn't change the current dilemmas.

 

[RF2044]

Easier to change system to fit players than to change players to fit system.

Current on the court play is a combo of a lot of things.

Obviously we are all spoiled as syracuse fans- I mean, no losing seasons for how long? Amazing.

That said... Prior success doesn't change the current dilemmas.

45 years, I believe. JB has been the coach for 41.

 

[cuseinseattle]

I agree the zoning is not good right now but I think it is far more fixable than going to m2m and having kids play a primary defense they are not currently using. I also think there are multiple kids on this team that would really struggle playing m2m. I really feel like our big kids are doing fine. I think if Howard/Battle/Gillon could recognize where the shooters are and get there we would be fine. There are countless times they suck down to far or end of really out of position. If we could fix that I feel like the defense would be ok. I'm not saying that is fixable, I'm just saying that is the biggest problem by far in my opinion.

 

[Cusefan0307]

45 years, I believe. JB has been the coach for 41.

49. Danforth's first year in 68-69.

 

[Orangeman]

Good thought, but given how they press...

Or rather, given how ineffectually they press, I'm not sure that we'd get that boon. This group seems to just go through the motions.

I have to disagree here...full-court pressure defense is something that is practiced, drilled, instructed. It's been clear for a long time that we really don't practice or enforce good principles in our full-court pressure defense...so I don't think you can pin the "effort" on the players.

When we press we launch a forward-lean 1-2-1-1 that tries to trap immediately and create a turnover on the first pass. That's it. There is really no rotation, we have no plan B except a block/foul on the opponents' 3-1 break.

I'm not defending the players per se, I'm saying that our press effort is not indicative, necessarily, of their defensive effort/ability. Our full-court pressure has NEVER been a disciplined, systemized pressure package like you'd see from a Louisville, Kansas or UNC.

 

[RF2044]

I have to disagree here...full-court pressure defense is something that is practiced, drilled, instructed. It's been clear for a long time that we really don't practice or enforce good principles in our full-court pressure defense...so I don't think you can pin the "effort" on the players.

When we press we launch a forward-lean 1-2-1-1 that tries to trap immediately and create a turnover on the first pass. That's it. There is really no rotation, we have no plan B except a block/foul on the opponents' 3-1 break.

I'm not defending the players per se, I'm saying that our press effort is not indicative, necessarily, of their defensive effort/ability. Our full-court pressure has NEVER been a disciplined, systemized pressure package like you'd see from a Louisville, Kansas or UNC.

I can absolutely pin it on the capabilities of the players, and their ability to move their feet / stay with their man -- which is lacking across the board.

Additionally, principals like Thompson [who has emerged as our starting center and a key offensive cog] has been extremely foul prone at times.

Unfortunately, this group seems ill suited for playing defense of any kind--and m2m wouldn't remediate some of the issues that we're seeing.

 

[Marsh01]

I can absolutely pin it on the capabilities of the players, and their ability to move their feet / stay with their man -- which is lacking across the board.

Additionally, principals like Thompson [who has emerged as our starting center and a key offensive cog] has been extremely foul prone at times.

Unfortunately, this group seems ill suited for playing defense of any kind--and m2m wouldn't remediate some of the issues that we're seeing.

We could put 6 guys out there on defense and we still would get scored on.

 

[Fly Rodder]

May as well just forfeit the rest of the season then.

 

[RF2044]

May as well just forfeit the rest of the season then.

Or we can work to improve instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm not fundamentally opposed to playing man once in awhile. I wish we had it as a staple, and look forward to having a more diversified defensive approach when JB hangs 'em up. But I don't see the potential in this group to succeed playing man. I just don't. And never in my wildest nightmares could I [or anybody else] have envisioned this squad being so incompatible and non-complimentary on offense, or the guards performing as poorly as we have. This just might not be fixable.

 

[Ghost]

I don't know how serviceable Joseph would have been. Patterson wouldn't stop shooting. So it's no just he was limited but he refused to accept his limits. I agree that Morris was a mistake and there have been others but some people are taking it a little too far.

I think those guys stick around though for what you get at the end. Patterson is finally a volume shooter and hits 38% of his threes at whatever crap school he's at. And he could actually play defense. It's like James Sutherland. The return in years 1 and 2 is negligible, year 3 is so-so, then the payoff. I'm not saying he should be here, just that having no continuity, and losing guys early, leaves a leadership void, and depth problems. You end up with 5th year seniors that have no clue in the zone, and offer how much more?

 

[FrancoPizza]

I can absolutely pin it on the capabilities of the players, and their ability to move their feet / stay with their man -- which is lacking across the board.

When it comes to the basic fundamentals of moving their feet and understanding proper slides in a press, that is not on the players. That comes down to instruction and repetition and demanding accountability. These players didn't suddenly forget the basics.

It's mind-boggling to me that these coaches are millionaires and they have no clue how to roll out an organized full-court press.

 

[RF2044]

We could put 6 guys out there on defense and we still would get scored on.

With the level of effort we're seeing on game day--yeah.

College basketball looks easy, but it isn't. These guys need to work exceedingly hard in order to have positive outcomes. You can rarely just show up and win. You can never predict how a game is going to go--some nights, shots just won't drop. But the one thing that players CAN control game in, game out is the level of effort they put forth.

When I see wide open shot after shot from the perimeter, and teams carving us up easily inside, it isn't acceptable effort. When I see us fail to secure rebounds, and yield them to a guy lying flat on his back...

 

[RF2044]

When it comes to the basic fundamentals of moving their feet and understanding proper slides in a press, that is not on the players. That comes down to instruction and repetition and demanding accountability. These players didn't suddenly forget the basics.

It's mind-boggling to me that these coaches are millionaires and they have no clue how to roll out an organized full-court press.

Give me a break. Last year's team played pretty good defense, even with limited personnel and some issues in the pivot. This year's team doesn't. What's the difference? The coaching staff didn't forget how to coach in the 8 months since April's final four.

Being out of position, not challenging shooters, not moving their feet, standing around watching the ball swing -- absolutely on the players.

If the point you're trying to make is that the coaches ultimately are at fault for failing to coax an adequate level of defensive play from the group, well duh. But it isn't because they're doing the wrong things--it's because this team seems allergic to playing defense. There's only so much you can do as a coach to correct poor performance when everything goes wrong at the same time.

I know that some would like to believe that there's some magic bullet that could be employed to turn everything around, but the root of our problems are far deeper than that--this is a systemic breakdown the likes of which this program has not experienced in nearly 50 years. An epic debacle that is unprecedented in the Jim Boeheim era.

EDIT--this isn't the first time we've had a "down" year, but in the past those have still been 18+ win / NIT squads, nothing like this. Usually, even when we lack talent or some key piece of the puzzle, the light switch usually goes on at some point and the team improves and can actually beat teams. That just hasn't happened this far. We got run off the floor by SJU and BC. Incredible how poorly we're playing.