I'm changing my view on next season

[CousCuse]

Small and mid major programs having been doing this for years. Positionless basketball is more the modern/GSW approach. You need good shooters but if that is all they do- they are good off the bench. In today's game you need to be able to hit a 3 if you want to start as a wing on a top 25 team but it's so much more than that. You have to be able to be a threat all around if you are gonna play 75 pct of the minutes or more.

It's hard for me to draw definitive conclusions when I see this team taking big leads, playing games down to 1 or 2 possessions and generally competing strongly. To just say blow it up while we're waiting for our crown jewel recruit to fire seems drastic to me.

 

[Orangezoo]

It's hard for me to draw definitive conclusions when I see this team taking big leads, playing games down to 1 or 2 possessions and generally competing strongly. To just say blow it up while we're waiting for our crown jewel recruit to fire seems drastic to me.

Tunnel vision. This isn't year 1 of the program struggling to be a post season team. It's also year 7 of being outside the top 25. Kicking the can down the road is also never a good strategy.

 

[sufandu]

I'm a firm believer in the tradeoffs. The guards that make the zone really effective are going to be limited on offense. Those guys who have it all have their pick of any school

I don't know if that's true. Andy Rautins wasn't an elite talent but checks the boxes for what we want this year. He wasn't an elite athlete but was athletic enough and great at the top of the zone and had the shooting that's necessary on offense. He was also an adequate ball handler and willing passer. I wonder how many more passes go into the post if we could use a time machine to put him on this team.

I think the bigger problem is the forwards. We can't get athletic forwards that are also offensively skilled. Recently, the ones that have been athletic with the ability to develop those skills decided to develop them in the pros instead of at Syracuse.

I've understood why JB likes the zone, but I've never undterstood our inability to mix in man. Regardless of the defense, you need athletes. Our best zones had great athletes and some of those guys have made NBA careers at least in part because of what they can do on defense.

 

[chugg21]

I'll be excited next year because I think he's going to be forced to play a bunch of the kids. If we aren't going to compete for single digit tourney seeds then the thing I enjoy most is watching the young kids get run and start to develop so that I can then dream about single digit tourney seeds in the future.

 

[SUFan44]

Zone or man is a pointless debate when you have a group of guys that can’t move well enough to defend in any defense.

If we have talent, our defense will be fine regardless of the way it’s played.

According to KenPom, our defensive efficiency has ranked in the Top 30 nationally in each year from 2010-2016, 2018, and 2019. Our worst defensive teams in recent memory are the John Gillon-Andrew White-Taurean Thompson team in 2017, and since Joe Girard & Buddy Boeheim have been the starting backcourt.

It’s a talent issue. It’s not a zone vs. man issue.

 

[Orangezoo]

Zone or man is a pointless debate when you have a group of guys that can’t move well enough to defend in any defense.

If we have talent, our defense will be fine regardless of the way it’s played.

According to KenPom, our defensive efficiency has ranked in the Top 30 nationally in each year from 2010-2016, 2018, and 2019. Our worst defensive teams in recent memory are the John Gillon-Andrew White-Taurean Thompson team in 2017, and since Joe Girard & Buddy Boeheim have been the starting backcourt.

It’s a talent issue. It’s not a zone vs. man issue.

I think this is somewhat accurate and yet even with that def efficiency, we have been bit by the 3 ball far more even with those better defensive teams as well. Had we taken more of an approach like this year mixing in a 1-3-1 trying to give different looks those defensive numbers could have been even higher and also done better.

 

[Millhouse]

I don't know if that's true. Andy Rautins wasn't an elite talent but checks the boxes for what we want this year. He wasn't an elite athlete but was athletic enough and great at the top of the zone and had the shooting that's necessary on offense. He was also an adequate ball handler and willing passer. I wonder how many more passes go into the post if we could use a time machine to put him on this team.

I think the bigger problem is the forwards. We can't get athletic forwards that are also offensively skilled. Recently, the ones that have been athletic with the ability to develop those skills decided to develop them in the pros instead of at Syracuse.

I've understood why JB likes the zone, but I've never undterstood our inability to mix in man. Regardless of the defense, you need athletes. Our best zones had great athletes and some of those guys have made NBA careers at least in part because of what they can do on defense.

One legacy guy from another country that was overlooked doesn't show there isn't a tradeoff. It's not impossible but the odds aren't great

 

[Madbiker]

Yes the game has changed. But I don't think it's JB's zone scheme that keeps the team from winning at the level we all want. It all comes down to talent on the court. If we had MCW and Dion in the backcourt and Warrick and John Wallace up front we'd be winning a lot and be a top 10 team maybe higher. We just don't get talent like that any more.

 

[sufandu]

One legacy guy from another country that was overlooked doesn't show there isn't a tradeoff. It's not impossible but the odds aren't great

He was simply an example of someone less than elite that checks the boxes. I'm sure there are other examples that play for other teams. Not every shooter that can play solid defense is an elite guy. To your previous point, even if those elite guys can go anywhere, I wonder why they don't want to come here.

 

[SUFan44]

One legacy guy from another country that was overlooked doesn't show there isn't a tradeoff. It's not impossible but the odds aren't great

There's a direct correlation between talent and winning. There's not a whole lot of correlation between man vs. zone and winning. At least I don't think. Tough to prove.

We haven't had a first-round draft pick in what will be 5 years in June. That has more to do with us not winning than anything else.

Even though they both flamed out, Lydon & Richardson - the last two 1st rounders - led a team to the Final Four. Dream run, but a Final Four isn't a fluke.

That team also won with defense. Ranked 18th in the country in DEfficiency.

The problem is we don't have the players. Man or zone. The players are out there to recruit and win with whatever defense you have. We just have not identified the right ones, or haven't gotten enough of them.

This team is comprised of 6th men type players on good SU teams, who are playing 35 minutes per game. Need far better talent regardless of defense to win.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Zone or man is a pointless debate when you have a group of guys that can’t move well enough to defend in any defense.

If we have talent, our defense will be fine regardless of the way it’s played.

It’s a talent issue. It’s not a zone vs. man issue.

Without talent and athleticism, yeah, any defense you play is going to suck. But there is a compelling argument that the zone is not suited to be a base defense in the modern game. Asking the center to cover the corner will always be a desperation move.

 

[SUFan44]

Without talent and athleticism, yeah, any defense you play is going to suck. But there is a compelling argument that the zone is not suited to be a base defense in the modern game. Asking the center to cover the corner will always be a desperation move.

Asking the center to cover the corner has only happened as a primary rotation recently - i.e. THIS YEAR. Due to the fact that our forwards stink.

 

[rrlbees]

Asking the center to cover the corner has only happened as a primary rotation recently - i.e. THIS YEAR. Due to the fact that our forwards stink.

That’s an incorrect statement. We’ve done it longer then you think and we did it last year with Marek. Even the very first game of the season Sidibe hurt his knee doing exactly that. Game one. Even this year, Jesse doesn’t always do it because it’s dependent on several things and the rotation changes. Maybe it seems like Jesse does it more this year but that could also be a result of teams taking more 3’s against us as we’ve seen from those stats people lost about 3 pointers.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Asking the center to cover the corner has only happened as a primary rotation recently - i.e. THIS YEAR. Due to the fact that our forwards stink.

JB asked the center do this ever since Pitino exposed the issue way back in 2009-10. I swear some fans have a really bad memory and should start taking that peanut butter test.

 

[SUFan44]

That’s an incorrect statement. We’ve done it longer then you think and we did it last year with Marek. Even the very first game of the season Sidibe hurt his knee doing exactly that. Game one. Even this year, Jesse doesn’t always do it because it’s dependent on several things and the rotation changes. Maybe it seems like Jesse does it more this year but that could also be a result of teams taking more 3’s against us as we’ve seen from those stats people lost about 3 pointers.

It is the result of our forwards being terrible at rotations and not being able to recover. And the 3-pt. attempts are also up due to this.

It has not been a primary rotation previously - it's one of the final rotations if our zone gets out of whack. It has become a primary rotation that happens earlier in the shot clock because our forwards are horrific.

 

[4evaOrange]

I think we may be better (still bad, but better). Let's say Jesse takes another step in development. Benny has the switch go on and is an actual player. Symir plays the 1 and JG plays his natural 2. I take a flyer and play Frank at the 4 and hope the Frosh coming in can play - Jon as an emergency big...would that team be dramatically worse than this season's? We'd be more athletic, better rebounding, can't be worse defensively, not as good shooting, and a push on ball handling. Willingness and interest in passing would go up exponentially... lots of IF's but we may not be worse which at the current stage of the program might be all we can ask.

Sadly have to factor in that JB is not what he was in game anymore and that I'm not convinced he doesn't run the whole thing back one more year, but that is a different topic.

 

[SUFan44]

JB asked the center do this ever since Pitino exposed the issue way back in 2009-10. I swear some fans have a really bad memory and should start taking that peanut butter test.

Yes, it is in the playbook but only if the zone gets out of whack. And in the past, it has stayed solid for much longer in a shot clock. That is what I meant by a "primary" rotation. It has happened more often and earlier because our forwards are horrific. And asking Jesse to do this and blaming him because he can't do it effectively as often or as early in the shot clock is ridiculous.

 

[rrlbees]

It is the result of our forwards being terrible at rotations and not being able to recover. And the 3-pt. attempts are also up due to this.

It has not been a primary rotation previously - it's one of the final rotations if our zone gets out of whack. It has become a primary rotation that happens earlier in the shot clock because our forwards are horrific.

It’s not done just because the zone gets out of whack. It’s based on where the offense is being run from, where the pass to the corner is coming from and where defenders are at the time. It’s not a helter skelter resolution.

 

[Alsacs]

It’s funny because forcing the big to cover the corner 3 kills rebounding position.
For a bad rebounding team when we are good it makes our bad rebounding even worse.

What is frustrating about the zone is it’s lack of ever changing defenses if not just confuse a team. This team can’t play man to man though as Buddy and Joe would get abused in a man to man situations.
But previous teams had the ability to just change in a pinch.
The excuse has been practice requires giving it all the attention. When teams all across the switch defenses periodically.

I remember Bill Self a couple years ago switching to a zone. Saying he hated it but with his personnel switching occasionally helped.

Instead it’s one size fit all at Syracuse. Zone 100% or when down double digits press to try and force turnovers.

On offense just iso.

 

[007]

It’s not done just because the zone gets out of whack. It’s based on where the offense is being run from, where the pass to the corner is coming from and where defenders are at the time. It’s not a helter skelter resolution.

^This^ 100% accurate. And, JB has been running the rotations that way for several years now - it is not new this year.

 

[SUFan44]

It’s not done just because the zone gets out of whack. It’s based on where the offense is being run from, where the pass to the corner is coming from and where defenders are at the time. It’s not a helter skelter resolution.

There's a difference between the center coming out to hedge the corner 3, while the forward is rotating back. That happens, and should happen a lot.

The defender being the primary solution for a corner 3 is extremely new. And due to our forwards being awful. And the zone being out of whack almost immediately.

 

[Jasoncuse]

That’s an incorrect statement. We’ve done it longer then you think and we did it last year with Marek. Even the very first game of the season Sidibe hurt his knee doing exactly that. Game one. Even this year, Jesse doesn’t always do it because it’s dependent on several things and the rotation changes. Maybe it seems like Jesse does it more this year but that could also be a result of teams taking more 3’s against us as we’ve seen from those stats people lost about 3 pointers.

We secured our NC with the guy playing center flying out to the corner to swat the shot. it's been around long enough.

The problem is, it's now a major feature of the zone because of how poor our wing defenders have become, along with the increase in 3's being taken. We never really had to rely on our C trying to fly out to contest wide open looks from the corner, because those looks were not available all that often when we had legit athletes on the wing.

 

[SUFan44]

We secured our NC with the guy playing center flying out to the corner to swat the shot. it's been around long enough.

The problem is, it's now a major feature of the zone because of how poor our wing defenders have become, along with the increase in 3's being taken. We never really had to rely on our C trying to fly out to contest wide open looks from the corner, because those looks were not available all that often when we had legit athletes on the wing.

Thank you. This is all I am saying.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We secured our NC with the guy playing center flying out to the corner to swat the shot. it's been around long enough.

The problem is, it's now a major feature of the zone because of how poor our wing defenders have become, along with the increase in 3's being taken. We never really had to rely on our C trying to fly out to contest wide open looks from the corner, because those looks were not available all that often when we had legit athletes on the wing.

It was a major feature of the zone before our forwards became slow. JB used to send Fab and Keita to the corner.

Not saying I agree with it, but let’s get the facts straight.

 

[007]

There's a difference between the center coming out to hedge the corner 3, while the forward is rotating back. That happens, and should happen a lot.

The defender being the primary solution for a corner 3 is extremely new. And due to our forwards being awful. And the zone being out of whack almost immediately.

FWIW, I can tell you with certainty (I've been to clinics instructed by JB), the current rotations are not as you describe. The 5 is responsible for the corner rotation when the strongside F is on the ball and above the foul line extended. If you have any games on DVR (or YouTube) from the last 5 seasons at least, just watch the rotations. It's not because the zone gets "out of whack" and forces the 5 to the corner. They are deliberately making all those rotations in relationship to the ball and how the offense is aligned.