I'm changing my view on next season

[Millhouse]

There's a direct correlation between talent and winning. There's not a whole lot of correlation between man vs. zone and winning. At least I don't think. Tough to prove.

We haven't had a first-round draft pick in what will be 5 years in June. That has more to do with us not winning than anything else.

Even though they both flamed out, Lydon & Richardson - the last two 1st rounders - led a team to the Final Four. Dream run, but a Final Four isn't a fluke.

That team also won with defense. Ranked 18th in the country in DEfficiency.

The problem is we don't have the players. Man or zone. The players are out there to recruit and win with whatever defense you have. We just have not identified the right ones, or haven't gotten enough of them.

This team is comprised of 6th men type players on good SU teams, who are playing 35 minutes per game. Need far better talent regardless of defense to win.

I wonder if we could be more successful with shorter offensively talented guards that are not so hard to recruit if we weren't a zone team.

 

[DilemaCuse]

I wonder if we could be more successful with shorter offensively talented guards that are not so hard to recruit if we weren't a zone team.

I have wanted this for a while, just recruit a natural PG who can dazzle with the ball, Johnny Flynn wasnt tall and everyone would take him today.

Unfortunately, there have been soo many misses, Kaleb Joseph, Jalen Carey, Goodine.

KR was a hit but that ship sailed.

 

[rrlbees]

It was a major feature of the zone before our forwards became slow. JB used to send Fab and Keita to the corner.

Not saying I agree with it, but let’s get the facts straight.

Yep. Also must be our forwards weren’t very athletic last year either.

 

[rrlbees]

FWIW, I can tell you with certainty (I've been to clinics instructed by JB), the current rotations are not as you describe. The 5 is responsible for the corner rotation when the strongside is on the ball and above the foul line extended. If you have any games on DVR (or YouTube) from the last 5 seasons at least, just watch the rotations. It's not because the zone gets "out of whack" and forces the 5 to the corner. They are deliberately making all those rotations in relationship to the ball and how the offense is aligned.

Sounds like what I was saying but you said it better. I’ve never been to a JB clinic but I’ve heard him talk about it and I remember an article a few years ago that explained it.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Obviously, trying to outscore teams is not working. We need to add more defense to our lineup. It needs to be more balanced. I think both Symir and Benny have potential to help defensively. They both may not have to be on the floor at one time, but I think one of them should.

 

[rrlbees]

Obviously, trying to outscore teams is not working. We need to add more defense to our lineup. It needs to be more balanced. I think both Symir and Benny have potential to help defensively. They both may not have to be on the floor at one time, but I think one of them should.

I don’t disagree, especially when a game like Miami is going the way it was where both Buddy and Jimmy were playing bad. But I was surprised when I looked at BPM for the Miami game and saw that both Sy and Benny were negative with Sy the lowest on the team. The only positive numbers were Joe, Jesse and Cole. I thought Sy and Benny would be positive. The prior game vs Virginia Buddy and Jimmy played well and it was Joe and Cole who played bad. We need everyone clicking at the same time.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Benny is so much more athletic than our two starting forwards he has the potential to be very good on defense. It won’t happen if he’s not playing. After watching Jr. and Swider lose the dribble and fall down on the court, Benny can’t be worse.

 

[baggerbob]

I don't know if that's true. Andy Rautins wasn't an elite talent but checks the boxes for what we want this year. He wasn't an elite athlete but was athletic enough and great at the top of the zone and had the shooting that's necessary on offense. He was also an adequate ball handler and willing passer. I wonder how many more passes go into the post if we could use a time machine to put him on this team.

I think the bigger problem is the forwards. We can't get athletic forwards that are also offensively skilled. Recently, the ones that have been athletic with the ability to develop those skills decided to develop them in the pros instead of at Syracuse.

I've understood why JB likes the zone, but I've never undterstood our inability to mix in man. Regardless of the defense, you need athletes. Our best zones had great athletes and some of those guys have made NBA careers at least in part because of what they can do on defense.

Andy, Eric, and Flynn were all willing passers. I remember a play where Flynn passes to Eric who immediately threw the ball to Andy for an open 3.

 

[sufandu]

Andy, Eric, and Flynn were all willing passers. I remember a play where Flynn passes to Eric who immediately threw the ball to Andy for an open 3.

Agreed. I was citing a guy that wasn't considered an elite recruit that didn't force us to sacrifice defense for offense or vice versa.

 

[OrangeDW]

Isn't this why we have 3 three point shooters in the starting lineup?

Unfortunately none of them can play defense.

We need guys who are good overall basketball players.

 

[OrangeDW]

I'll be excited next year because I think he's going to be forced to play a bunch of the kids. If we aren't going to compete for single digit tourney seeds then the thing I enjoy most is watching the young kids get run and start to develop so that I can then dream about single digit tourney seeds in the future.

I’ll be excited next year if the “he” in charge of playing people is someone else.

We’re washed. It happens. Time to move on.

 

[bozophobe]

The number of new kids won't matter if the system of minutes and position distribution remain the same.

 

[TinyManInside]

That’s an incorrect statement. We’ve done it longer then you think and we did it last year with Marek. Even the very first game of the season Sidibe hurt his knee doing exactly that. Game one. Even this year, Jesse doesn’t always do it because it’s dependent on several things and the rotation changes. Maybe it seems like Jesse does it more this year but that could also be a result of teams taking more 3’s against us as we’ve seen from those stats people lost about 3 pointers.

No, I think it seems like he's out there more covering the corner three because HE IS out there covering the corner three more. We have the worst duo of defensive forwards that JB's zone has ever suited up. I mean, teams probably ARE shooting more corner threes this year than any other year against us, but it's probably by design. If I'm scouting this team, I'm setting up the offense to specifically shoot as many corner threes as possible because you only need 3 passes to get our leadfoot forwards completely out of position, then you get an open look from the corner and NO ONE under the basket to rebound.

Jessie does get out there for a block every once in awhile but I'll bet the analytics on points per possession that start with corner threes is ungodly high. So most possession teams either make the three, or get the rebound and a point blank shot. It's called strategy.

 

[TinyManInside]

FWIW, I can tell you with certainty (I've been to clinics instructed by JB), the current rotations are not as you describe. The 5 is responsible for the corner rotation when the strongside is on the ball and above the foul line extended. If you have any games on DVR (or YouTube) from the last 5 seasons at least, just watch the rotations. It's not because the zone gets "out of whack" and forces the 5 to the corner. They are deliberately making all those rotations in relationship to the ball and how the offense is aligned.

which is a last ditch scenario when the zone gets "out of whack".

 

[TinyManInside]

I think we may be better (still bad, but better). Let's say Jesse takes another step in development. Benny has the switch go on and is an actual player. Symir plays the 1 and JG plays his natural 2. I take a flyer and play Frank at the 4 and hope the Frosh coming in can play - Jon as an emergency big...would that team be dramatically worse than this season's? We'd be more athletic, better rebounding, can't be worse defensively, not as good shooting, and a push on ball handling. Willingness and interest in passing would go up exponentially... lots of IF's but we may not be worse which at the current stage of the program might be all we can ask.

Sadly have to factor in that JB is not what he was in game anymore and that I'm not convinced he doesn't run the whole thing back one more year, but that is a different topic.

we have no idea what the roster will look like next year.

 

[chugg21]

I’ll be excited next year if the “he” in charge of playing people is someone else.

We’re washed. It happens. Time to move on.

Well that goes without saying for me as well. I just have such a hard time believing it actually happens.

 

[Giants1973]

we have no idea what the roster will look like next year.

Frank not a pf

 

[FrancoPizza]

I wonder if we could be more successful with shorter offensively talented guards that are not so hard to recruit if we weren't a zone team.

You mean like the rest of planet earth?

 

[Tony DeFranco]

Benny is so much more athletic than our two starting forwards he has the potential to be very good on defense. It won’t happen if he’s not playing. After watching Jr. and Swider lose the dribble and fall down on the court, Benny can’t be worse.

our forwards may be less athletic than our guards - that is scary

 

[CousCuse]

Unfortunately none of them can play defense.

We need guys who are good overall basketball players.

I said this before and I'll say it again. This roster is built around Benny Williams. He is an extremely high level talent, It's just that his development is taking a little longer than everyone would like, including him. I think he is just about there now, and if he plays like the 5 star player that he is, this team will be a totally different animal.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Zone or man is a pointless debate when you have a group of guys that can’t move well enough to defend in any defense.

If we have talent, our defense will be fine regardless of the way it’s played.

According to KenPom, our defensive efficiency has ranked in the Top 30 nationally in each year from 2010-2016, 2018, and 2019. Our worst defensive teams in recent memory are the John Gillon-Andrew White-Taurean Thompson team in 2017, and since Joe Girard & Buddy Boeheim have been the starting backcourt.

It’s a talent issue. It’s not a zone vs. man issue.

In this day and age we aren’t able to get the elite athletic talent because we are playing the zone. These kids want to play in the NBA and a lot of the other schools are negatively recruiting against us by saying “don’t go to Syracuse because you’ll only learn the 2-3 zone and it will hurt your NBA draft stock”

 

[dan7800]

With the state of CBB, next season is a huge unknown. We can no longer count on guys to develop, and to go with what we have. Transfers make so many variables.

How many guys ran out of eligibility last season? How many of our starters changed?

 

[OrlandoCuse]

I said this before and I'll say it again. This roster is built around Benny Williams. He is an extremely high level talent, It's just that his development is taking a little longer than everyone would like, including him. I think he is just about there now, and if he plays like the 5 star player that he is, this team will be a totally different animal.

So JB built a roster around Benny, largely with guys that predate Benny? That’s a hot take.

 

[CousCuse]

So JB built a roster around Benny, largely with guys that predate Benny? That’s a hot take.

They added the 2 forwards they did because of Benny.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

They added the 2 forwards they did because of Benny.

They added the two forwards they did because all of the other forwards transferred, and these two forwards were 1) the natural born son of the coach, and 2) a former recruit and friend of several players on the roster (none of which are Benny)