important to remember where shafer left us on defense | Page 7 | Syracusefan.com

important to remember where shafer left us on defense

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I honestly don't get the love affair with a guy who was a such a bad coach and made our school look so stupid. At least GRob left Marrone with a handful of guys that were able to get paid for playing football.
Not a love affair, but a mixed bag of reactions. Babers is a great hire into a difficult rebuild -- proven as a HC, staff followed him, great face and personality for the program. When he wins his first game in November, I hope to be there. He better win some of those. I love that he is projecting a season to be remembered in 2018.

Shafer was a good DC and loyal SU guy for 7 years -- if you like an aggressive defense, he is your guy. Put in a difficult situation when elevated to HC. Did some good things, wasn't the right guy. The cupboard had some bare spots for Babers, but in fairness, I wonder what the BGSU fans think about what Babers left for his successor there after the skill guys Babers inherited were done (total of 6 wins in two years).
 
I want everyone to just sit and rethink the unprecedented amount of 1st round talent we faced this year. Heisman candidates and top 15 picks galore.

Then think about how much of that talent we faced on the road.

Then think about how much NFL talent we inherited from HCSS despite Dino’s ability to turn WR’s into draft prospects.

Then realize we played all these absurd teams in a gauntlet like fashion then got spit out into the “soft winnable” part of our schedule vs BC and Wake.

The more and more I think about it. The more and more it comes as zero surprise that we were blown out our last two games.
 
I want everyone to just sit and rethink the unprecedented amount of 1st round talent we faced this year. Heisman candidates and top 15 picks galore.

Then think about how much of that talent we faced on the road.

Then think about how much NFL talent we inherited from HCSS despite Dino’s ability to turn WR’s into draft prospects.

Then realize we played all these absurd teams in a gauntlet like fashion then got spit out into the “soft winnable” part of our schedule vs BC and Wake.

The more and more I think about it. The more and more it comes as zero surprise that we were blown out our last two games.
Great post team was totally improved for 9.5 games and then like the bluesmobile the entire thing fell apart.
The last 2.5 games are on the staff’s ledger but the program improved.

Preseason everyone had us 4-8 to 6-6.

We were better and expectations raised. We should never get blown out by BC but our schedule was crazy.
Road schedule
LSU, NC State, Miami all ranked in the CFB top 25
Florida State and Louisville severally more talented teams.

Anyone who expected any wins here are crazy.

The program has the right guy.
 
My eyes are wide open, just not entirely in sync with the way you see things. Nobody here is happy with the way things finished up. After the Clemson game, we all changed our original expectations. Let’s not forget that at the beginning of the season, many expected Syracuse to Win 4-5 games with an outside shot of 6 given the schedule, the lack of depth and the injury history of the QB1. The only real difference between the expectations then and now is that the makeup of those wins caused us all to raise the bar on Dino mid season , which wasn’t exactly fair.

People aren’t blinded by beating Clemson. This wasn’t Buster Douglas over Tyson. This wasn’t a game that Clemson lost, it was a game SU won, toe-to-toe.

It’s obvious that the system can work. It’s highly unusual for a team to win multiple games as a 20+ pt underdog in back-to-back years. Using the CFP rankings as of today, with a healthy serviceable QB1, Babers guided the team to a win against #1 and losses by one score against #7, #17 and #24. All three of those losses on the road. Being competitive in those types of games is playing big time football.

Stop using Shafer in comparison arguments with Dino. It’s like arguing apples and oranges. Shafer didn’t “inherit” recruits. He was a big part of the decision making process for recruiting the 4 years before he took the helm. He knew what he had.

Shafer also didn’t have the ability to show the poise and control necessary to lead. Need evidence? Case #1: Yelling obscenities at Dabo for running up the score in the 1st half. Case #2: The handling of the McF*ckIt situation. There were several other instances as well. The wheels came off and we were left to watch the program spiraling out of control. Dino has shown the poise and demonstrated he has control over the program. If your argument was that we are all blinded by Dino’s composure, you may be onto something given what came before him. But I still think you’re missing the forest for the trees.

Shafer lost his mind 5 minutes into his first game.
 
Great post team was totally improved for 9.5 games and then like the bluesmobile the entire thing fell apart.
The last 2.5 games are on the staff’s ledger but the program improved.

Preseason everyone had us 4-8 to 6-6.

We were better and expectations raised. We should never get blown out by BC but our schedule was crazy.
Road schedule
LSU, NC State, Miami all ranked in the CFB top 25
Florida State and Louisville severally more talented teams.

Anyone who expected any wins here are crazy.

The program has the right guy.
We saw our true colors vs NC state and Miami imo.

An imperfect team that can compete with anyone.

You can’t fault a coach/team for going balls to the walls vs those two teams then coming out ragged and injured against 4 more better or equal teams.

FSU was the most winnable game left on the schedule and we had them on the road up until the final minutes. This team showed heart until they were dead on the operating table vs Wake and Louisville.

We just didnt have the depth. Its not an excuse its a fact.
 
...

Then realize we played all these absurd teams in a gauntlet like fashion then got spit out into the “soft winnable” part of our schedule vs BC and Wake.

The more and more I think about it. The more and more it comes as zero surprise that we were blown out our last two games.

The icy cold splash of water was that Wake & BC, facing nearly the same schedule as we do, blew our doors off in November. We can tell ourselves that Dungey wasn't available, that Wake is ahead of us in its rebuild in Clawson's 4th year, and we can say whatever we want about BC. Can blame Shafer if you like. I agree with others that there were signs of progress in the competitive play on the road against strong programs.

Still, the take-away is that Babers ended 4 -8, losing to MTSU, BC & Wake -- in the Dome -- and has a long, long way to go to get where he and we want to be.
 
I try to think back to mid way through the 2015 season before FHCSS was let go.


Did any of us then, realistically, imagine that by 2017 we’d beat a returning champion and current favorite, as well as nearly beat LSU in death valley?

Forget the fact that Miami’s garnering serious playoff consideration as well.

Forget that we had to play the returning heisman on the road.


In 2015 how did you guys expect our rematch with LSU and Clemson’s next dome visit to go?
 
The icy cold splash of water was that Wake & BC, facing nearly the same schedule as we do, blew our doors off in November. We can tell ourselves that Dungey wasn't available, that Wake is ahead of us in its rebuild in Clawson's 4th year, and we can say whatever we want about BC. Can blame Shafer if you like. I agree with others that there were signs of progress in the competitive play on the road against strong programs.

Still, the take-away is that Babers ended 4 -8, losing to MTSU, BC & Wake -- in the Dome -- and has a long, long way to go to get where he and we want to be.

Our team is not yet built for the schedule we faced this year. That is what it comes down to. Babers is rebuilding that through the past two and upcoming recruitment classes.

All’s I’m trying to say is I learned more about the state of our program in the NC ST, LSU and Miami losses than I did in the UL, Wake and BC losses.
 
Not a love affair, but a mixed bag of reactions. Babers is a great hire into a difficult rebuild -- proven as a HC, staff followed him, great face and personality for the program. When he wins his first game in November, I hope to be there. He better win some of those. I love that he is projecting a season to be remembered in 2018.

Shafer was a good DC and loyal SU guy for 7 years -- if you like an aggressive defense, he is your guy. Put in a difficult situation when elevated to HC. Did some good things, wasn't the right guy. The cupboard had some bare spots for Babers, but in fairness, I wonder what the BGSU fans think about what Babers left for his successor there after the skill guys Babers inherited were done (total of 6 wins in two years).


I wanted Shafer to be Bud Foster to Marrone's Beamer, but it didn't fall that way.
 
How in the word was Shafer getting to 6 wins?

He would start by not allowing 38 ppg. Second year in Lester's offense probably improves, let's say to 30 ppg. Another year under Lester and another year for a very young defense to grow I fully believe the team would have went bowling.
 
Average SOS

Marrone: 53
Shafer: 46
Babers: 7

The ground shifted under us the last two seasons. Everyone in our division (Addazzio just makes the cut due to this season, honestly surprised) made good hires and got better. You've been pounding the "Clawson is a great coach" drum but now you think the Wake teams Shafer played are the same as this years team?!

This is crazy even for you.
Clawson's resume says he is an exceptional coach.
 
You are all over the place in this counter argument. Clemson #1, Miami #7, LSU #17 and NCSt #24 in current CFP ballot. If FSU didn’t lose their QB, they would have been right up there too. This schedule was more difficult than any GRob, Marrone, or Shafer faced.

The T2 used against ND was a very bad T2. That defense was shredded by bubble screens so wildly that I thought the CBs were playing zone. It took Dungy years to get the appropriate personnel and teach a team to run a T2. Shafer thought he could install it during the week of the game. :confused:
It worked better than the current one does.
 
Clawson's resume says he is an exceptional coach.

Follow that logic - then the 2017 Wake Team > 2014 Wake Team

Or just look at any advanced stat to evaluate any of our divisional peer schools. They are all a lot better. Or just watch football.

Shafer’s SoS < Dino’s SoS
 
He would start by not allowing 38 ppg. Second year in Lester's offense probably improves, let's say to 30 ppg. Another year under Lester and another year for a very young defense to grow I fully believe the team would have went bowling.
This circles back to the original point of the thread. Bullough's defense was regressing over a three year period. It's not likely it would have suddenly bounced back in year four. The players that Shafer and Co recruited are playing now wouldn't be doing any better in that system - slow safeties can't cover fast wide receivers who have good quarterbacks, regardless of scheme.
 
He would start by not allowing 38 ppg. Second year in Lester's offense probably improves, let's say to 30 ppg. Another year under Lester and another year for a very young defense to grow I fully believe the team would have went bowling.
What teams do we beat last year that we didn’t?
Only game I can think is Wake and I give Scott Shafer no chance to beat Virginia Tech.
 
This circles back to the original point of the thread. Bullough's defense was regressing over a three year period. It's not likely it would have suddenly bounced back in year four. The players that Shafer and Co recruited are playing now wouldn't be doing any better in that system - slow safeties can't cover fast wide receivers who have good quarterbacks, regardless of scheme.

This.

If we sucked on D vs a top 50 schedule, we were not improving enough to compete with top 10 schedules with the same talent.
 
This circles back to the original point of the thread. Bullough's defense was regressing over a three year period. It's not likely it would have suddenly bounced back in year four. The players that Shafer and Co recruited are playing now wouldn't be doing any better in that system - slow safeties can't cover fast wide receivers who have good quarterbacks, regardless of scheme.

So we're saying that players recruited for scheme's don't matter? Therefore we can't use that as an excuse for Babers. How about how young Shafer's last defense was? Marrone left at the right time because he didn't recruit an heir to Nassib and he filled the roster with JUCO players which left Shafer with too many holes to try to fill. Shafer's teams were incredibly young at too many key spots.

You guys seem to be really good at noticing these problems for Babers, but not for Shafer.

Again, I'm not anti-Babers.
 
I'd also add that Bulloughs defense in 2015 while being young gave up 31ppg. A year later/older and they give up 39ppg in Wards scheme. Those players aren't as bad as this system made them appear.
 
I'd also add that Bulloughs defense in 2015 while being young gave up 31ppg. A year later/older and they give up 39ppg in Wards scheme. Those players aren't as bad as this system made them appear.
The defense last year was awful.
The defense would have been awful with Shafer as well.

The pass D wasn’t good. Our DBs weren’t good.

I am fine with Dino criticism but honestly Scott Shafer was a horrible HC.
 
Pts given up per game


2008 - 32.7(102 of 120) Robinson
2009 - 27.9(81 of 120) Marrone
2010 - 19.3(17 of 120) Marrone
2011 - 28.5(73 of 120) Marrone
2012 - 24.8(47 of 124) Marrone
2013 - 25.4(56 of 125) Shafer
2014 - 24.3(38 of 128) Shafer
2015 - 31.0(90 of 128) Shafer
2016 - 38.6(120 of 128) Babers
2017 - 32.2(102 of 128) Babers
In defense of Barber's defense, our PPG numbers are inflated because of tempo.

Look at Points Per Possession (which is what really matters), and DB's D will look a LOT better.
 
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So we're saying that players recruited for scheme's don't matter? Therefore we can't use that as an excuse for Babers. How about how young Shafer's last defense was? Marrone left at the right time because he didn't recruit an heir to Nassib and he filled the roster with JUCO players which left Shafer with too many holes to try to fill. Shafer's teams were incredibly young at too many key spots.

You guys seem to be really good at noticing these problems for Babers, but not for Shafer.

Again, I'm not anti-Babers.
I'm not accusing you of being pro or against. I'm saying that Shafer recruited lousy players that would fail in any scheme. Babers may also have recruited lousy players, but they haven't matured enough for the jury to reach a verdict.
 
I'm not accusing you of being pro or against. I'm saying that Shafer recruited lousy players that would fail in any scheme. Babers may also have recruited lousy players, but they haven't matured enough for the jury to reach a verdict.
Shafer’s first recruiting class has gone thru this year.
We had 8 players good/great come through it.
Ishmael
Philips
Murphy
Franklin
P. Thomas
Bennett
McGlosker

Walkon 8th guy
Mahoney

Shafer hit on these guys and left some good Juniors but the depth isn’t there and that is the problem. When the drop from first guy to second guy is so large you get problems.

Shafer’s classes weren’t deep enough with ACC quality players. Heck Babers had to gently tell a lot of 2016 verbals to look elsewhere.
 
This circles back to the original point of the thread. Bullough's defense was regressing over a three year period. It's not likely it would have suddenly bounced back in year four. The players that Shafer and Co recruited are playing now wouldn't be doing any better in that system - slow safeties can't cover fast wide receivers who have good quarterbacks, regardless of scheme.
Bullough wasn't a good DC IMHO.
 

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