important to remember where shafer left us on defense

[721Comstock]

No. I'm not. I just think we should have a program of such stature that the MTSU and East carolina's of the world don't ever beat us. maybe they are competitive once in a while. But not beat us.

We did have a program of such stature in 1991. And Jeff Blake still beat us.

We most definitely do NOT have such a program now, nor have we for 1.5 decades.

We live in a world where Michigan lost to App State.
Syracuse losing to MTSU or ECU doesn't even rate compared to that.

Programs of such stature as Nebraska in 1984 or Clemson in 2017 probably don't think the Syracuse's of the world should ever beat them either.

 

[dasher]

We did have a program of such stature in 1991. And Jeff Blake still beat us.

We most definitely do NOT have such a program now, nor have we for 1.5 decades.

We live in a world where Michigan lost to App State.
Syracuse losing to MTSU or ECU doesn't even rate compared to that.

Programs of such stature as Nebraska in 1984 or Clemson in 2017 probably don't think the Syracuse's of the world should ever beat them either.

That is different. That was us

 

[djorange1989]

No. I'm not. I just think we should have a program of such stature that the MTSU and East carolina's of the world don't ever beat us. maybe they are competitive once in a while. But not beat us.

Let’s just hope that Dino, Dungey etc are more prepared next year when we face Dungey’s former mentor in Lester. Can’t let that crap get in a players head like what happened against cigar boy this year

 

[PeteCalvin]

Offense points per game-

Babers:
2017 - 27.4 (4 wins)
2016 - 25.7 (4 wins)

Shafer:
2015 - 27.2 (4 wins)
2014 - 17.1 (3 wins)
2013 - 22.7 (7 wins)

Where is the offense everyone keeps thinking is happening here? I'm all about keeping Babers, but I'm sick of seeing the continued blind faith after what we have seen and what the stats show to be true.

It's on the bench...with our M.A.S.H. Unit QB. Both seasons we excelled with Dungey on the field. When he went down, our stats hit the dirt. Healthy ED, plus better OLine plus a good RB and its a different story on the scoreboard. Oh, and no dropsies.

 

[shu 49]

Our defense needs speed plain and simple.
The LBs and DBs need to be faster.
Just get speed. S&C can add pounds during development but you can’t teach speed.
Our safeties are so slow without Cordy even.

So true. At some points in the last three I games it looked like I was back there and I was a wet 180 pound nose guard in the mid 80's in h.s.

 

[TheCusian]

I'm not saying Shafer is some amazing coach. I believe he was an above average defensive coach and more passionate than he should have been at some moments. I still believe he should have been given more time and the main reason I defend him at all now is because of the people giving Babers all the same excuses that weren't good enough for Shafer.

Again, I am very happy we got Babers and hope he retires here. He's the best we're gonna get here and I hope he turns it around. His staffs recruiting is more exciting to me than anything else and gives me hope moving forward. With that being said, there are many things to be critical of so far. People have put him in a god-like status around here like he's above being judged. That's nonsense.

Shafer apologists point to the QB injuries as the reason. But that’s if you believe he got fired for his W/L record. I don’t.

The reasons are very different:

- Shafer couldn’t get the O system right. Bad hire with McF$%5it compounded by giving him the mic when he should have had his media time revoked. (Babers has a proven system from the get-go. Doesn’t allow his assistants to talk).

- Shafer couldn’t punch above his weight as a HC. No top 25 wins. (Babers has 2, 1 If which is the best in a long time).

- Shafer’s recruiting philosophy was not P5 quaility and wasn’t getting better. (Babers classes appear to be better and are trending up)

- Shafer left a player in when we had no chance to win and then had weak/poor justification after the kid got hurt. (Babers kept Dungey out when he couldn’t protect himself)

- Shafer didn’t handle himself with class when the most eyes were on him during and after games. (Babers is a guy who manages his emotions and represents the school in a way we can be proud of - all the time).

- Add them all up and you get: the school lost faith that he was the guy to get us where we wanted to go. (Babers still has it.)

 

[TheCusian]

Because we shouldn't lose to G5 teams at home, not ever.

According to who? Central Florida would be a tough out for just about every P5 school not currently in the top 25.

 

[bcubs9497]

According to who? Central Florida would be a tough out for just about every P5 school not currently in the top 25.

Pretty good for a boatload of mid-level 3* recruits.

 

[Millhouse]

the move to the acc makes me wonder if we've always had terrible depth problems that were disguised by easier big east schedules. there weren't as many games that were physically taxing (easy for me to say, I would be taken out on a stretcher after one play against colgate)

 

[SoBristol]

When considering where Shafer left on defense, have to recognize how young overall the defense was in 2015, and how that happened. There was a huge drop in experience from the '14 unit. The 2013 recruiting class was in tatters due to the timing of Marrone's departure, so that class provided little help and Shafer elected not to go the juco route in 2014 or 2015.

2015 defense had Clark, Samuels & Slayton as DTs (true frosh, two RsF); Franklin & Bennett as true sophs at LB, with Thomas as a back-up LB in rotation; Cordy, Hudson/Dowels, Winfield & Williams as DBs along with Scissum. That defense had veterans at DE, and one LB spot. It was a ridiculously young and inexperienced defense.

So, Babers was given a defense returning a lot of starters, still relatively young, with holes at DE (due to misdeeds of Ealey & Sheppard). Compare stats if you want, but then also consider the ingredients. Many of those listed in the 2015 defense were the core of the Babers defense even in 2017.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

the move to the acc makes me wonder if we've always had terrible depth problems that were disguised by easier big east schedules. there weren't as many games that were physically taxing (easy for me to say, I would be taken out on a stretcher after one play against colgate)

I would agree with you here, even if the hey day, I don't think we were facing these foes and this is the reason we have just fallen apart in November the past 2 years and why Marrone did so in 2011. When we have a bunch of good healthy seniors we should have better teams but we wont just replace guys all the time. Shafer stunk and Dino hasn't been great. I quite honestly feel Syracuse is really going to have a hell of a time ever being truly relevant again but I can almost guarantee they aren't going to do it flipping coaches every 3-4 years. This isn't an Art Briles process type thing as Dino isn't in Texas nor will he or should be recruit some of the worst character guys imaginable as well as criminals but to me Syracuse needs to follow the Duke process and to me what Duke has been the past 4-5 years is pretty much the ceiling for Syracuse and I am 100% fine with that

If I am wrong, I am wrong but they are fighting a fire with an 8 oz glass of water and a cocktail straw

 

[Bayside44]

I would agree with you here, even if the hey day, I don't think we were facing these foes. Shafer stunk and quite honestly Dino hasn't been great. I quite honestly feel Syracuse is really going to have a hell of a time ever being truly relevant again but I can almost guarantee they aren't going to do it flipping coaches every 3-4 years. This isn't an Art Briles thing as Dino isn't in Texas nor will he or should be recruit some of the worst character guys imaginable as well as criminals but to me Syracuse needs to follow the Duke process and to me what Duke has been the past 4-5 years is pretty much the ceiling for Syracuse.

If I am wrong, I am wrong but they are fighting a fire with an 8 oz glass of water and a cocktail straw

The week in week out ACC schedule is flat out brutal, and the dismissiveness some take because of the names of the schools is just dopey. We had plenty of gimmes in the Big East under PP, which was nice. Those don't exist here.

We have to stick to a plan, and I think we will.

Duke FWIW went out and beat Wake last week.

 

[Millhouse]

The week in week out ACC schedule is flat out brutal, and the dismissiveness some take because of the names of the schools is just dopey. We had plenty of gimmes in the Big East under PP, which was nice. Those don't exist here.

We have to stick to a plan, and I think we will.

Duke FWIW went out and beat Wake last week.

i think babers gives us as good a shot as anyone at something special

it will take good luck with injuries because we're never going to have backups that are good enough to win in this division

but the offense will get there, i know it. defense is volatile, there'll be some years where it'll be ok. hopefully those years line up with great offenses and good luck with injuries.

 

[cuse10]

Because we shouldn't lose to G5 teams at home, not ever.

Boise, UCF and SDSU are among the non P5 programs that would give fits for most teams in the country.

 

[Millhouse]

That is different. That was us

 

[IthacaBarrel]

The week in week out ACC schedule is flat out brutal, and the dismissiveness some take because of the names of the schools is just dopey. We had plenty of gimmes in the Big East under PP, which was nice. Those don't exist here.

We have to stick to a plan, and I think we will.

Duke FWIW went out and beat Wake last week.

Yep, IMO this is the format Syracuse should follow, I know people will get puffy in the chest and talk about the tradition, etc but nobody cares anymore ( expect for OPA). Few decent seasons, a bad season here and there and really good season here and there. That's about the ceiling, IMO

 

[Pyle]

Boise, UCF and SDSU are among the non P5 programs that would give fits for most teams in the country.

But not MTSU right? Right? Exactly. I'll even amend my original statement.

"Because we shouldn't lose to NON-RANKED G5 teams at home. Not ever."

Is that better?

 

[kuethstheman]

MTSU should NEVER come in to the Carrier Dome and beat us. Never.

I'm still not convinced that was SU playing MTSU that day. Looked like some other team I hadn't seen before nor since.

 

[Pyle]

The week in week out ACC schedule is flat out brutal, and the dismissiveness some take because of the names of the schools is just dopey. We had plenty of gimmes in the Big East under PP, which was nice. Those don't exist here.

We have to stick to a plan, and I think we will.

Duke FWIW went out and beat Wake last week.

Yeah but we also had OOC games against GT/UT/ND etc. We simply need to stop playing teams like LSU OOC for a while and feast on some low level G5 until we can build the roster up. The problem is the way games are scheduled 6-8 years out. A low level G5 team today can end up as the UCF '17 undefeated monsters.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I don't think it's supposed to be a we want Shafer back or Dino to go kind of thing. What Orange_in_VA and I are trying to do is open up some eyes. People are still blinded by the Clemson win, but we got freaking rocked at home against BC. Wake scored 35 points on us in a half. This defense is bad. People are making excuses. Do I see flashes? Sure, so did Grob apparently. We played some close games, lucky us. At the end of the day, we got beat by MTSU and both of our supposed 'peer' teams. I'm laughing at the guys saying yup, Addazio got it rolling after 6 years! These are the same guys at the beginning of the year who thought BC would be hiring right now and had that game penciled as a sure win.

This is a tough post but its 100% correct and I was not a Shafer guy.

 

[TheCusian]

But not MTSU right? Right? Exactly. I'll even amend my original statement.

"Because we shouldn't lose to NON-RANKED G5 teams at home. Not ever."

Is that better?

Yep.

We shouldn’t have lost that game. MTSU had a one in a million psychological edge and took advantage. We were the better team given how the rest of the season played out.

 

[TheCusian]

Forgive the "back of the napkin" quick photoshop version - but this gets at evaluating the defense more fairly. There are more in depth ways of looking at it too (like their O ranking vs our D ranking) - but I only had a bit of time...

It does give proper credit to Shafer's D vs a slightly above avg schedule. But I don't know how you evaluate Dino's D with the SoS we've had.

We went from: Big East > ACC > Best Division in Football (and this year the bad teams got better and the good teams dropped a touch overall - but it makes for less success, IMO)

 

[djorange1989]

Shafer apologists point to the QB injuries as the reason. But that’s if you believe he got fired for his W/L record. I don’t.

The reasons are very different:

- Shafer couldn’t get the O system right. Bad hire with McF$%5it compounded by giving him the mic when he should have had his media time revoked. (Babers has a proven system from the get-go. Doesn’t allow his assistants to talk).

- Shafer couldn’t punch above his weight as a HC. No top 25 wins. (Babers has 2, 1 If which is the best in a long time).

- Shafer’s recruiting philosophy was not P5 quaility and wasn’t getting better. (Babers classes appear to be better and are trending up)

- Shafer left a player in when we had no chance to win and then had weak/poor justification after the kid got hurt. (Babers kept Dungey out when he couldn’t protect himself)

- Shafer didn’t handle himself with class when the most eyes were on him during and after games. (Babers is a guy who manages his emotions and represents the school in a way we can be proud of - all the time).

- Add them all up and you get: the school lost faith that he was the guy to get us where we wanted to go. (Babers still has it.)

agree with every single thing you say here. Coyle is a dirty name to utter on this site, but like it or not, from day 1 he recognized that Shafer wasn't the guy. And he was correct. He happens to be a carpetbagging scumbag, but he knows what a good head coach looks like, and Shafer wasn't it for all the reasons you list.

 

[Chip]

agree with every single thing you say here. Coyle is a dirty name to utter on this site, but like it or not, from day 1 he recognized that Shafer wasn't the guy. And he was correct. He happens to be a carpetbagging scumbag, but he knows what a good head coach looks like, and Shafer wasn't it for all the reasons you list.

That’s why it’s not a dirty name to me.

He made the right decision while he was here and we stuck the landing after he left.

 

[anomander]

Took the average our offense scores and subtracted what our defense gives up for Shafer vs Babers.

Shafer-

2013:
Lost by average of 3 ppg

2014:
Lost by average of 7 ppg

2015:
Lost by average of 4 ppg

Babers-

2016:
Lost by average of 13 ppg

2017:
Lost by average of 5 ppg


This does seem to show that Babers teams kept games much closer in year two, which points to progress. Overall Shafer was more competitive though. I don't know why people have to hate Shafer to love Babers. Shafer deserved more time regardless of what a lot of people think of him here and Babers deserves more time even though the W-L aint pretty right now. The people that started calling everyone "Shafer apologists/lovers" are the same ones making excuses for Babers that weren't valid for Shafer apparently.

He certainly did not deserve another year. Everybody with at least 1 eye could see where that was heading. It was obvious that he didn't have the chops to cut it as a HC. Giving him another year would just have been prolonging the inevitable.