Is this our actual ceiling for the season?

[Alsacs]

Brycen Goodine 2019-20 Stats per Game - NCAAM - ESPN

The 2019-20 NCAAM season stats per game for Brycen Goodine of the Fairfield Stags on ESPN. Includes full stats, per opponent, for regular and postseason.

www.espn.com

Kadary Richmond 2023-24 Stats per Game - NCAAM - ESPN

The 2023-24 NCAAM season stats per game for Kadary Richmond of the Seton Hall Pirates on ESPN. Includes full stats, per opponent, for regular and postseason.

www.espn.com

Goodine averaged 8.7 minutes per game. Richmond is averaging 23. With three guards with different skill sets, we will see plenty of all three of them, depending on the opponent, game situation and how they are playing in that game.

Okay you want to go down this road fine.

Goodine is the 5th guard in the rotation at PC behind Duke, Reeves, Bynum, and Breed.

So that factors into MPG.
Also Duke is better than guard on our team.
So if you are going to post the MPG between Richmond and Goodine put the proper context.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

SWC - you KNOW that Kadary's #'s are currently skewed high due to Buddy DNP's.

That average will likely fall, and precipitously.

MCW had some decent minutes too, his Frosh year, early on.
And then like 8 straight DNP's.

Like those 9 minutes he got against mighty Bryant.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Okay you want to go down this road fine.
View attachment 194419
Goodine is the 5th guard in the rotation at PC behind Duke, Reeves, Bynum, and Breed.

So that factors into MPG.
Also Duke is better than guard on our team.
So if you are going to post the MPG between Richmond and Goodine put the proper context.

Amen.

Wonder if that data is sufficient for the discussion.

 

[Alsacs]

Amen.

Wonder if that data is sufficient for the discussion.

I was done but people want to say atta boy for SWC posting 2 links without context I am not letting that go without proper context.
Plus Kadary got 3 starts only because Buddy was out which inflates his minutes.
Plus David Duke is on PC who is a superstar talent and he plays basically the entire game and yet PC has a deeper guard rotation.

 

[Brooky03]

SWC - you KNOW that Kadary's #'s are currently skewed high due to Buddy DNP's.

That average will likely fall, and precipitously.

MCW had some decent minutes too, his Frosh year, early on.
And then like 8 straight DNP's.

17 mpg when Buddy and Joe play

 

[Brooky03]

Okay you want to go down this road fine.
View attachment 194419
Goodine is the 5th guard in the rotation at PC behind Duke, Reeves, Bynum, and Breed.

So that factors into MPG.
Also Duke is better than guard on our team.
So if you are going to post the MPG between Richmond and Goodine put the proper context.

For full context, Providence often plays a 3 guard lineup.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

17 mpg when Buddy and Joe play

Including one OT game.

 

[Brooky03]

Including one OT game.

subtract 5 minutes and his average goes down to... 17mpg

 

[Alsacs]

For full context, Providence often plays a 3 guard lineup.

I follow Providence do you?
They play 3 guards during the game
Their primary starting lineup is
Duke-Reeves-Gantt-Nichols-Watson.

In case you don’t know that is G-G-F-F-C lineup.
They will switch it but I bet you didn’t know that.

Goodine is the 5th guard in the rotation vs. Richmond is the 3rd guard in the rotation.
Do you expect the minutes to be the same for each?

 

[Brooky03]

I follow Providence do you?
They play 3 guards during the game
Their primary starting lineup is
Duke-Reeves-Gantt-Nichols-Watson.

In case you don’t know that is G-G-F-F-C lineup.
They will switch it but I bet you didn’t know that.

All I said was they often play a 3 guard lineup, which they do. I don’t care who starts or what you watch. It’s not 5 guys fighting for 80 minutes.

 

[Alsacs]

All I said was they often play a 3 guard lineup, which they do. I don’t care who starts or what you watch. It’s not 5 guys fighting for 80 minutes.

Okay but comparing Richmond the 3rd guard to Goodine the 5th guard is kinda bad context.
Yet people responded like that proved anything.

If we had Duke at PG then playing Richmond the minutes he has played wouldn’t be an issue.
Because he is an all-conference level talent.

 

[Brooky03]

Okay but comparing Richmond the 3rd guard to Goodine the 5th guard is kinda bad context.
Yet people responded like that proved anything.

If we had Duke at PG then playing Richmond the minutes he has played wouldn’t be an issue.
Because he is an all-conference level talent.

Fair enough. I still don’t see the problem with him playing half of the game most of the time, but we’re going to have to agree to disagree on that.

 

[SWC75]

Okay you want to go down this road fine.
View attachment 194419
Goodine is the 5th guard in the rotation at PC behind Duke, Reeves, Bynum, and Breed.

So that factors into MPG.
Also Duke is better than guard on our team.
So if you are going to post the MPG between Richmond and Goodine put the proper context.

Thanks for the simple bowels trick.

The fact that Goodine is the 5th guard and Richmond is the 3rd guard would seem to suggest that they aren't on the same skill level and that Richmond's playing time will continue to significantly exceed Goodine's. The quality of Richmond's play has obviously been better than Goodine's so they aren't really comparable at all and that was the original point. The numbers make the context very clear.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Duke for sure is similar; they were actually 75th last year but in the years prior to that they rank in the 300s.
Virginia is similar, maybe not quite as extreme
Gonzaga has been 250 or higher the last few years. I can't figure an easy way to check a bunch at once, so I'll leave it there.

I do think most of the best teams tend to lean on their bench less than average. Which is why I said I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that we don't play the bench a lot. But it is true

75th vs. 300th is NOT that similar.
Coach K does play a short rotation - at the end of the year, not for the whole season.
That's what changed with Boeheim.
Once it became hard to beat our mid-major opponents, he stopped playing the bench.
Whose fault is that?
Can you not see that if your top 7 guys have some holes in their game, that you plug in a bench guy for a few minutes to provide what's missing?

 

[IthacaMatt]

As Syracuse fans this substitution pattern is consistent and has been JB way forever.

If you all haven't listened to the Devendorf podcasts I highly recommend them. In many, the former players have all mentioned his substitution patterns and JB loyalty to his top 7 or 8 guys. In the Jason Hart episode he specifically talks about top 7 and if you aren't in the top 7 you aren't seeing time. He said why play some one 3 or 4 minutes when you can just give those minutes to the guy playing over 30. You are not getting anything out of the guy who isn't warmed up for 3 or 4 minutes. Hart and Devo both said this is something they liked from coach during their playing years.

Well, Jason Hart ought to go back and take a look at the stats for his senior year.

Etan Thomas, Jason Hart and Ryan Blackwell - all averaged 32-33 minutes per game.

Damone Browne, Preston Shumpert and Tony Bland - all averaged 21-26 minutes per game.

DeShawn Williams played 16 minutes a game.

Allan Griffin and Kueth Duany both played about 10 minutes a game.

That's nine guys already, and that doesn't count that both Jeremy McNeil and Billy Celuck got an average of 6 minutes a game, backing up Etan Thomas when he got in foul trouble - a total of 20 games between them. So that's like half a guy.

That's 11 guys that played on that team, and 9 of them played most games, at least 10 minutes a game.

I WOULD KILL FOR A ROTATION LIKE THAT.

Now, sure, Hart has a point that JB leaned on those 7 guys, but he wasn't afraid to play his bench when it was needed.

1999-00 Syracuse Orange Men 's Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the detailed 1999-00 Syracuse Orange Roster and Stats for College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

 

[malpearl31]

Okay you want to go down this road fine.
View attachment 194419
Goodine is the 5th guard in the rotation at PC behind Duke, Reeves, Bynum, and Breed.

So that factors into MPG.
Also Duke is better than guard on our team.
So if you are going to post the MPG between Richmond and Goodine put the proper context.

I've watched a fair bit of Providence this year, and I'm genuinely curious: If you consider AJ Reeves to be a guard for Providence, why don't you consider Alan Griffin to be a 4th guard for SU? They're almost exactly the same size... and from what I've seen, Griffin handles the ball way more for us than Reeves does for PC. (Griffin's assist rate is more than double Reeves' so far this season.)

I'm not trying to be a troll, I swear, but you have been pretty vocal about how we don't have a 4th guard on the roster in several recent threads so I'm curious to understand why a non-ball handling 6'6" guy at Providence (Reeves) does qualify as a guard when Griffin doesn't for us.

Related point: From what I've seen in watching Providence this year, I've been surprised that Goodine hasn't been able to crack the rotation. Outside of Duke, they're pretty weak in the backcourt. And the fact that Brycen has now fallen behind an unranked freshman guard (Alyn Breed) in the rotation, has me convinced that he's just not as good as many believed/hoped he was.

 

[Knicks411]

75th vs. 300th is NOT that similar.
Coach K does play a short rotation - at the end of the year, not for the whole season.
That's what changed with Boeheim.
Once it became hard to beat our mid-major opponents, he stopped playing the bench.
Whose fault is that?
Can you not see that if your top 7 guys have some holes in their game, that you plug in a bench guy for a few minutes to provide what's missing?

Not 75 vs 300, def not similar. But in the past
2019: 232nd
2018: 341st
2017: 314th
2016: 346th
2015: 310th

 

[IthacaMatt]

I've watched a fair bit of Providence this year, and I'm genuinely curious: If you consider AJ Reeves to be a guard for Providence, why don't you consider Alan Griffin to be a 4th guard for SU? They're almost exactly the same size... and from what I've seen, Griffin handles the ball way more for us than Reeves does for PC. (Griffin's assist rate is more than double Reeves' so far this season.)

I'm not trying to be a troll, I swear, but you have been pretty vocal about how we don't have a 4th guard on the roster in several recent threads so I'm curious to understand why a non-ball handling 6'6" guy at Providence (Reeves) does qualify as a guard when Griffin doesn't for us.

Related point: From what I've seen in watching Providence this year, I've been surprised that Goodine hasn't been able to crack the rotation. Outside of Duke, they're pretty weak in the backcourt. And the fact that Brycen has now fallen behind an unranked freshman guard (Alyn Breed) in the rotation, has me convinced that he's just not as good as many believed/hoped he was.

I agree with you. Griffin is an actual swingman. He plays guard at times, whether or not they put him at the top of the zone on defense. Certainly he could play there, just like Woody can play there on defense.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Dion Waiters played 16 minutes per game as a freshman. Kadary is better than Dion?

So buddy and Joe are the equivalent of scoop and triche? lol

 

[FrancoPizza]

Usually more talented freshmen play less because of defensive lapses...

JB always used to say if you can’t play defense you won’t play... until buddy came along. Now it’s about shooting and spacing and soft misses that carress and cuddle the rim.

 

[Brooky03]

So buddy and Joe are the equivalent of scoop and triche? lol

At that time? Yes, they were. We covered this. Triche was a better defender and Scoop could drive better. Otherwise, the stats are practically the same.

 

[OrangeDW]

At that time? Yes, they were. We covered this. Triche was a better defender and Scoop could drive better. Otherwise, the stats are practically the same.

“we covered this”, lol, but nobody really agreed with you because you’re underselling the defensive difference, and the ability to score in more than one way.

 

[Knicks411]

“we covered this”, lol, but nobody really agreed with you because you’re underselling the defensive difference, and the ability to score in more than one way.

It was covered much in the way Ohio state is covering Devonta Smith tonight

 

[OrangeDW]

The other two guards are 15 PER guys. In a minuscule sample size in a fudged up season their PER is lower. Kadary’s is higher in the same minuscule sample size. Is he a 21 PER guy? Maybe, but probably not.

They’re close. He’s a freshman. He’s going to play behind them. If he gets in the game and makes things happen, he plays more. If he doesn’t, he plays less.

PER’s holding steady.

Interesting that Kadary’s PER is actually slightly better (at 21) in conference games. We can end the “he had a few good games against mid majors” thing.

 

[Brooky03]

PER’s holding steady.

Interesting that Kadary’s PER is actually slightly better (at 21) in conference games. We can end the “he had a few good games against mid majors” thing.

He played well yesterday. His spurt at the end of the first half kept it from getting out of hand and kept the team in the game for the 2nd half comeback.

Like I’ve said all along, I think Kadary is talented and should be a 30mpg guy for us next year. This year, I’m happy with what he’s done off the bench and like him at around 20mpg. He’s this team’s Dion Waiters.