Is this the year we see more m2m?

[Capt. Tuttle]

Also, I think this team has the potential to be one of the top defensive teams of app time. Let's say we run out Howard, Battle, Lydon, Roberson, and Chukwu. How you gonna score against that, Battle and Howard will be ball-hawks and run players off the 3 point line. Lydon and Chukwu will block everything in sight and Roberson will make sure their are no second chances. Potentially, this could be the best D we've ever seen here. I'm more worried about scoring, frankly.

What in Battle's time on the court leads you to believe he is a stellar defender?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Yes, Ive been around quite a while and most know I'm a huge supporter of both JB and the zone. But I must have missed JB saying he would definitely not consider playing m2m at all this year? I know it's been a very long time since he played it but I hadn't heard he ruled it out.. Got a link?

Got a clue?
So your position is he hasn't played M2M since SU lost to LeMoyne, but unless he announces each year he is not going to play M2M, then fans shouldn't rule it out. Really, that's your position?

 

[CaptainJ]

Got a clue?
So your position is he hasn't played M2M since SU lost to LeMoyne, but unless he announces each year he is not going to play M2M, then fans shouldn't rule it out. Really, that's your position?

Wasnt there a Bond movie called Never Say Never...Again? Kind of like the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" tour? Some say that the beginning of life on earth is proof that anything that is possible can(will eventually) happen. Just saying. I mean we're again supposedly going to return to the old SU days of fast breaking, so some brief mixes could make for a good cocktail with that.

 

[FrancoPizza]

the zone has been historically good since 2009... Syracuse has rarely given up 70+ points.

The zone may be good or it may not- we'll find out soon enough. But for Christmas sakes, please stop citing points given up as some useful metric. It's about as moronic a statement as trump building a wall. We've also been one of the slowest teams in America because of the zone. That artificially deflates certain stats, like you know, points scored.

 

[HoustonCuse]

The zone may be good or it may not- we'll find out soon enough. But for Christmas sakes, please stop citing points given up as some useful metric. It's about as moronic a statement as trump building a wall. We've also been one of the slowest teams in America because of the zone. That artificially deflates certain stats, like you know, points scored.

The current NCAA rules state that the team with more points at the end of the game wins. Look it up.

 

[iommi]

What in Battle's time on the court leads you to believe he is a stellar defender?

Unless you totally discount a player's high school play, then I think it's safe to say that Battle is an outstanding defender. He will be one of the best guard defenders we've had in recent times.

 

[two3zone]

The current NCAA rules state that the team with more points at the end of the game wins. Look it up.

We the defensive pace we play at we should hold teams below 70 and do.

Fwiw, we only averaged 70 ppg last season.

 

[CaptainJ]

The current NCAA rules state that the team with more points at the end of the game wins. Look it up.

True, all true. And if you have Grayson Allen on your team, you can take shortcuts to get there. Unfortunately, we don't.


I just don't want an offense that will need the team play Indiana NCAA game-level defense all season, whether it's m4m or zone.

 

[MELOKEITH]

No, but I can 100% guarantee that we will not play less man to man than last year.

 

[Brooky03]

What would playing m2m accomplish that zone wouldn't? The things that make our zone great are length and athleticism which we have in spades with the current roster. So, when the team seems poised to play excellent zone D, we should switch to m2m? I don't follow. And the inexperience thing is not a great argument, imo. The zone has m2m principles; we're not talking about taking newborns and teaching them to walk. Most of these guys are already crawling or standing.

Other than the 'trunk monkey' effect, m2m wouldn't have a lot of value.

 

[CaptainJ]

What would playing m2m accomplish that zone wouldn't? The things that make our zone great are length and athleticism which we have in spades with the current roster. So, when the team seems poised to play excellent zone D, we should switch to m2m? I don't follow. And the inexperience thing is not a great argument, imo. The zone has m2m principles; we're not talking about taking newborns and teaching them to walk. Most of these guys are already crawling or standing.

Other than the 'trunk monkey' effect, m2m wouldn't have a lot of value.

After a hard night of drinking, those 2 choices tend to be rather exclusive for me. Zone and man need not be, as we've seen with other teams. Im generally cool with zone, but when you fall behind enough, I think it can generally be more advantageous to have m4m abilities in your back pocket.

 

[rstone7727]

Got a clue?
So your position is he hasn't played M2M since SU lost to LeMoyne, but unless he announces each year he is not going to play M2M, then fans shouldn't rule it out. Really, that's your position?

Yes that's my position exactly except he is not required to announce anything and I'm fine if he doesn't. One thing I'm pretty sure he is not stupid and will play any defense he wants based on personnel one year to the next. If, during preseason practice sessions, he thinks this squad may struggle with the zone, he may play some man.

 

[PoppyHart]

Some things just don't change. Is this the year for the Cubs?

 

[Dave85]

Alright Orange bleeders. I have a question for you. What was the last game in recent Orange history where the Orange played M2M and won?

 

[Cuse'91]

I think the M2M ship has sailed... But, maybe JB unleashes the full court press dogs before we get down by double digits?

 

[HoustonCuse]

Alright Orange bleeders. I have a question for you. What was the last game in recent Orange history where the Orange played M2M and won?

Probably that Kansas game in KC in November or December of 2008. Played mostly zone but did go to M2M during second half comeback.

 

[Alsacs]

Alright Orange bleeders. I have a question for you. What was the last game in recent Orange history where the Orange played M2M and won?

2008 CBE Classic final vs. Kansas. We won that game after switching to M2M and we came back to win after Jonny Flynn hit a 3 in the last 10 seconds to force OT.

 

[Dave85]

Probably that Kansas game in KC in November or December of 2008. Played mostly zone but did go to M2M during second half comeback.

2008 CBE Classic final vs. Kansas. We won that game after switching to M2M and we came back to win after Jonny Flynn hit a 3 in the last 10 seconds to force OT.

You guys are amazing. So that adds to the perspective on playing M2M. I think during the practices M2M is only played when practicing offensive sets. I don't think they serious spend any time on it. Here's the article from Syracuse.com where JB discusses why he went 100% to the dark side:

Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim says he learned (slowly) to rely on the zone defense

"The short history of our zone is we started out as a man-to-man team with some zone and over the years our zone got better, but we still played man,'' Boeheim said. "The problem when you play man, you have to spend an hour on your man defense every day and when you play your preseason games, your non-conference games, if you're playing man your zone isn't getting better.''

Boeheim said he realized that if the Orange was going to play zone, it had to do it all the time. "So finally it dawned on me,'' said Boeheim, "after about 27 or 28 years, finally, takes me a while, that if we played zone all the time and didn't waste time playing man to man and put some wrinkles in the zone because we had more time to practice it, that our defense would be better.''

There was a side benefit to putting 100 percent effort into the zone.

"You don't have that decision that people are always saying to me, well, why don't you switch to your man-to-man,'' Boeheim said. "Well, you can't switch to something you don't have. They stopped asking that question.''

Boeheim said rather than switching out the zone, he is able to make changes to the defense.

"When a man-to-man coach is getting beat, he tells his team to play defense better, he doesn't switch to a zone,'' Boeheim said. "When we get beat in our zone for whatever reason it is, we try to change it or play it better.''

Boeheim also noted that while teams can try to prepare for the zone, it's impossible to replicate the nuances of the Orange's defense. It's also impossible for a scout team to simulate the size, length and athleticism of the Syracuse players.

"As the years have evolved, not many teams are playing zone and when they play on or practice against it, it's a false sense of security, because you're not playing against our defense,'' Boeheim said. "It's much like when Georgetown had Patrick Ewing. You could practice against their 2-3, 1-3-1, anything you wanted, but at the end of the day when you made your play and made your move and you went to shoot it, he blocked it. You get a false sense of security sometimes at practice.''
​

 

[FrancoPizza]

What would playing m2m accomplish that zone wouldn't?

You seriously have to ask?

• Improved defensive rebounding, which can lead to more run-outs
  
• Greater ability to dictate tempo
  
• Individual match-ups favor teams with greater athleticism

 

[rstone7727]

You guys are amazing. So that adds to the perspective on playing M2M. I think during the practices M2M is only played when practicing offensive sets. I don't think they serious spend any time on it. Here's the article from Syracuse.com where JB discusses why he went 100% to the dark side:

Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim says he learned (slowly) to rely on the zone defense

"The short history of our zone is we started out as a man-to-man team with some zone and over the years our zone got better, but we still played man,'' Boeheim said. "The problem when you play man, you have to spend an hour on your man defense every day and when you play your preseason games, your non-conference games, if you're playing man your zone isn't getting better.''

Boeheim said he realized that if the Orange was going to play zone, it had to do it all the time. "So finally it dawned on me,'' said Boeheim, "after about 27 or 28 years, finally, takes me a while, that if we played zone all the time and didn't waste time playing man to man and put some wrinkles in the zone because we had more time to practice it, that our defense would be better.''

There was a side benefit to putting 100 percent effort into the zone.

"You don't have that decision that people are always saying to me, well, why don't you switch to your man-to-man,'' Boeheim said. "Well, you can't switch to something you don't have. They stopped asking that question.''

Boeheim said rather than switching out the zone, he is able to make changes to the defense.

"When a man-to-man coach is getting beat, he tells his team to play defense better, he doesn't switch to a zone,'' Boeheim said. "When we get beat in our zone for whatever reason it is, we try to change it or play it better.''

Boeheim also noted that while teams can try to prepare for the zone, it's impossible to replicate the nuances of the Orange's defense. It's also impossible for a scout team to simulate the size, length and athleticism of the Syracuse players.

"As the years have evolved, not many teams are playing zone and when they play on or practice against it, it's a false sense of security, because you're not playing against our defense,'' Boeheim said. "It's much like when Georgetown had Patrick Ewing. You could practice against their 2-3, 1-3-1, anything you wanted, but at the end of the day when you made your play and made your move and you went to shoot it, he blocked it. You get a false sense of security sometimes at practice.''
​

Hadn't seen that Dave, looks like man is out then. Great detective work, "Columboish"..

 

[Dave85]

You seriously have to ask?

• Improved defensive rebounding, which can lead to more run-outs
  
• Greater ability to dictate tempo
  
• Individual match-ups favor teams with greater athleticism

I think the first two could be argued either way. You always need good rebounding. It's hard to say if there's any real big difference between zone and M2M with rebounding. Players who are good rebounders will rebound regardless of where they are on the court.

I'm not sure I agree with ability to dictate tempo. The other team has a lot to do with how tempo is dictated. I think we all agree zone slows down the other team and forces them to make shots they are not interested in making.

The third one is the one I find most interesting. What you say is absolutely true. But, let's flip it around. Playing zone allows the Orange to beat teams having greater athleticism. So the question then becomes if you play zone against the lesser teams you will have a better zone when playing better teams. So play zone 100% of the time means you end up with a better defense for when you play teams with better athleticism.

I think the better argument for playing M2M is when the opposing team is killing us with motion offense and we need to do something to get them off balance. Press the whole court which means M2M at some point. But at this point I've just giving up on this idea because JB isn't going to change.

 

[br801]

Hadn't seen that Dave, looks like man is out then. Great detective work, "Columboish"..

Much of that line of reasoning for playing the zone also appears in JB's autobiography, Bleeding Orange. If you haven't already read it, it's worth your time.

 

[SBU72]

IMHO, it is the lack of experience that will dictate no m2m more than trying to play both. For the past few years with a relatively high trunover in the players, we have noticed that and JB loudly proclaims, that the team is not very good on the defensive end early in the season. If they are weak in the zone, without practicing 2 types of defense, what make you think adding m2m is going to help? SU's zone is more complicated than any seen since John Chaney's matchup zone of the 70's. Look at teh adjustments that JB makes during a game. Taking less time for newbies to learn it is not going to help. having a better/longer roster could mean more preasure defense and for more than "2 minutes".

 

[Dave85]

We need to stop calling it M2M and start calling the 1-1-1-1-1 zone. That may be more palatable to JB's delicate ways of thinking. It's not M2M, we are just extending the press to both sides of the court.

 

[jncuse]

Logically, as always, a good argument can always be made as to why we should play some man possessions.

But practically, it's a waste of time. It's not going to haoppen