ISh at Clemson

[upperdeck]

I agree about Phillips. He just seems to come up short on kick returns which is strange because you would think with his athleticism and speed he'd be a home run back there or at least consistently getting back to the 20.

you cant run back kicks if there is no seem. the kid at FSU last year was dynamic.. this year his is below avg, did he get worse of the blocking got worse? he didnt lose any speed.

kick returners look great when they can hit a hole at the 20, same for punt returns Desir isnt out there to return punts he is there to catch punts. Gulley is a better returner but has other issues. If teams would hit low line drives out return would look much better no matter who was back there. The Clemson kid is a good returner, didnt do much against us with high kicks and good coverage.

 

[RF2044]

I'm sick of the 18 year old true Freshman excuse. There are true Freshman that play and produce all over the country. If our guys aren't ready to compete as a true Freshman then they should have redshirted.

With that said I don't think that was the case with Ishmael. How many times did AJ actually have time to drop back go through his progressions and make a throw? Not many. Ishmael was probably over matched, but he was up against one of the top kids in the class of 2014. Ishmael will be the majority of the people he will go up against as a true Freshman. I just don't think the excuse of being an 18 year old true Freshman flies.

I'm sick of people not understanding and underestimating how complex / intricate it is to play QB in modern college football.

It's not an excuse for a QB. It would be for a RB, DT, etc.

 

[anomander]

I'm sick of people not understanding and underestimating how complex / intricate it is to play QB in modern college football.

It's not an excuse for a QB. It would be for a RB, DT, etc.

Anu Solomon went into Autzen Stadium and won as a true Freshman. DeShaun Watson was a dominant true Freshman. I am sure there are plenty more, but just like those guys AJ was here in January. With all the camps, and intricate HS systems these days it's not as hard as it used to be. Another advantage of being a qb in the South.

 

[dollarbill44]

I knew he'd be a great player at some position.

I was ready to move him to safety well before the SU coaches did.

Philips isn't cut out to be a kickoff returner. Maybe he's all we have, but let's see how long before they figure that out.

Desir isn't a punt returner, but we keep sending him out there.

I definitely agree with you on Phillips and Desir. Our best return man this year has been PTG. I just don't think Phillips has good field vision, whether on returns or at rb.

 

[Cuse'91]

I definitely agree with you on Phillips and Desir. Our best return man this year has been PTG. I just don't think Phillips has good field vision, whether on returns or at rb.

How could you possibly think PTG has been our best returner? He has no clue when to run, no clue when to fair catch. Once, he even did both, I think...

 

[dollarbill44]

Anu Solomon went into Autzen Stadium and won as a true Freshman. DeShaun Watson was a dominant true Freshman. I am sure there are plenty more, but just like those guys AJ was here in January. With all the camps, and intricate HS systems these days it's not as hard as it used to be. Another advantage of being a qb in the South.

So winning comes down to just qb play? I thought that maybe scheme and personnel might have something to do with it, but what do I know?

 

[CusefanATL]

Clemson blitzed a lot, and consequently often used press coverage. Against that coverage, Ishmael struggled to get free. That frosh CB was only 5'10, but even though he is only 190 pounds, he was a lot stronger than Steve and physically dominated him. Impressive player who is going to be a very good player for them.

Even West had a very hard time getting any daylight between him and his defender. From what I see, Ashton is our only WR who is big enough, strong enough and fast enough to consistently get open against tough man coverage. It has been this way since the start of last season and remains a huge issue when we play against teams with top cornerbacks who press our WRs.

Our Wr's look like they are in quick sand at the line of scrimmage. The last person to be able to get open may have been Mike Williams.

Even when Long/Hunt were completing passes - it was a combination great throw and great catch most of the time. We never have separation. And Ish has been the same way in his 2 good games.

 

[anomander]

So winning comes down to just qb play? I thought that maybe scheme and personnel might have something to do with it, but what do I know?

I don't get where you going with that?

 

[RF2044]

Anu Solomon went into Autzen Stadium and won as a true Freshman. DeShaun Watson was a dominant true Freshman. I am sure there are plenty more, but just like those guys AJ was here in January. With all the camps, and intricate HS systems these days it's not as hard as it used to be. Another advantage of being a qb in the South.

Okay, so some recruits are of higher ability than others. That doesn't change the fundamental fact that playing the QB position is complex as hell. And true frosh generally have not mastered the playbook / system, are not fully adept at reading defenses, don't have a lot of game experience under their belts to help slow the game down, they may or may not get dazzled by the bright lights because they haven't been there before, etc.

It is extremely rare for a true frosh QB to come in and perform well. Generally speaking, that happens on good teams that are capable of winning despite the frosh QB being somewhat inconsistent.

Long has played three games. He looked beyond solid in two, and overwhelmed in one. Frankly, he's accorded himself well--for a true frosh who didn't enter the season with the focus on getting ready to start. Its not an "excuse" to suggest that in all likelihood he'll look better next year, for having been through the experience of playing this year, and having to face several top notch defenses.

 

[tep624]

Anu Solomon went into Autzen Stadium and won as a true Freshman. DeShaun Watson was a dominant true Freshman. I am sure there are plenty more, but just like those guys AJ was here in January. With all the camps, and intricate HS systems these days it's not as hard as it used to be. Another advantage of being a qb in the South.

Are you really comparing AJ to Deshaun Watson?

 

[Phenomenon]

Mackensie Alexander. Considered the highest ranked HS recruit for Clemson since 2008. Would have started last year as true Freshman (injured). Kid is a player.

http://www.clemsontigers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=28500&ATCLID=206289195

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.

So at the tailgate for the Clemson game, a gentleman comes over to my tent checking out the TV and I start talking to him. He says that he coaches a team in south Florida by Fort Myers and that he was coming to check out a former player of his who's now playing at Clemson. He described the guy as the "best corner in the ACC". He then went on to add that Syracuse just offered his son (I think he said offered. He may have said contacted). I asked where his son was but he said that he came up to Clemson alone. He said that mom wants the son to go to South Florida to be closer to home but he wants his son to really experience the college life. The you only live once stuff. Without haste, I reminded him who topped the top party school list, to which he laughed and nodded. He said that the coaches likened him to another kid we have on the team who also plays safety with similar measureables (he started to describe Eskridge) who's also from south Florida. We talked for a bit now before he had to leave.

I completely forgot about his encounter until I clicked that link and I read the description. Thought, "Hmm, he sounds like the player that one guy described". So I went to the Immokalee website and looked at the coaching staff and sure enough, there is the guy:

Linky

Checked the roster and his son is on there (Jaymon Thomas). 6'3" 175lb safety who dad described as "likes to hit"

Crazy to think that I had the perfect opportunity to be that guy I always hoped Syracuse would have to indirectly grease the pockets of a recruit.

 

[anomander]

Okay, so some recruits are of higher ability than others. That doesn't change the fundamental fact that playing the QB position is complex as hell. And true frosh generally have not mastered the playbook / system, are not fully adept at reading defenses, don't have a lot of game experience under their belts to help slow the game down, they may or may not get dazzled by the bright lights because they haven't been there before, etc.

It is extremely rare for a true frosh QB to come in and perform well. Generally speaking, that happens on good teams that are capable of winning despite the frosh QB being somewhat inconsistent.

Long has played three games. He looked beyond solid in two, and overwhelmed in one. Frankly, he's accorded himself well--for a true frosh who didn't enter the season with the focus on getting ready to start. Its not an "excuse" to suggest that in all likelihood he'll look better next year, for having been through the experience of playing this year, and having to face several top notch defenses.

Just last year there were 3 true Freshman quarterbacks in the Top 15 for passing yards nationally (5) Davis Webb (8) John O'Korn (4) Jared Goof.

These kids are light years ahead of where they used to be coming out of high school.

Are you really comparing AJ to Deshaun Watson?

No, but i'm saying there are a decent amount of true Freshman quarterbacks who come in and are successful playing major college football. I was just listing off some I knew off the top of my head...Solomon, Watson, Kaaya

 

[tep624]

Just last year there were 3 true Freshman quarterbacks in the Top 15 for passing yards nationally (5) Davis Webb (8) John O'Korn (4) Jared Goof.

These kids are light years ahead of where they used to be coming out of high school.




No, but i'm saying there are a decent amount of true Freshman quarterbacks who come in and are successful playing major college football. I was just listing off some I knew off the top of my head...Solomon, Watson, Kaaya

Ok fair enough, I just don't think it's fair to throw around names of kids that are recruited as strongly as they are because they are physically capable of starting from day 1 vs kids that should be redshirting but are forced into service.

 

[anomander]

Ok fair enough, I just don't think it's fair to throw around names of kids that are recruited as strongly as they are because they are physically capable of starting from day 1 vs kids that should be redshirting but are forced into service.

I'm not even trying to argue that AJ should be better. He missed badly on a good amount of throws the few times receivers did get open Saturday, but I think he was a bit shell shocked from our offensive line getting dominated. He has shown he can compete at this level.

I was just arguing against using the 18 year old true freshman as an excuse for poor play.

 

[PeteCalvin]

I'm sick of the 18 year old true Freshman excuse. There are true Freshman that play and produce all over the country. If our guys aren't ready to compete as a true Freshman then they should have redshirted.

With that said I don't think that was the case with Ishmael. How many times did AJ actually have time to drop back go through his progressions and make a throw? Not many. Ishmael was probably over matched, but he was up against one of the top kids in the class of 2014. Ishmael will be the majority of the people he will go up against as a true Freshman. I just don't think the excuse of being an 18 year old true Freshman flies.

AJ had Ish open down the right sideline late in the second half and overthrew him by 10 yards. That would have been a TD. He was forced to get rid of the ball.

 

[BlackKnight76]

When a freshman has a bad game, it doesn't mean he was "exposed" or "not the answer" or "overrated." Sometimes, it was just a freshman having a bad game. Amazing, I know.

 

[RF2044]

I'm not even trying to argue that AJ should be better. He missed badly on a good amount of throws the few times receivers did get open Saturday, but I think he was a bit shell shocked from our offensive line getting dominated. He has shown he can compete at this level.

I was just arguing against using the 18 year old true freshman as an excuse for poor play.

I'm so tired of the "excuse" excuse--it really is tiresome. Especially under the circumstances of last Saturday--playing a tough defense on the road in front of a huge, raucous crowd.

Just last year there were 3 true Freshman quarterbacks in the Top 15 for passing yards nationally (5) Davis Webb (8) John O'Korn (4) Jared Goof.

These kids are light years ahead of where they used to be coming out of high school.

No, but i'm saying there are a decent amount of true Freshman quarterbacks who come in and are successful playing major college football. I was just listing off some I knew off the top of my head...Solomon, Watson, Kaaya

And AJ has played pretty well in his short game history. He ran into a buzz saw on Saturday. People are acting as though he's been subpar all along, when in actuality he's been pretty good.

That he isn't doing what O'Korn managed in a system that puts up huge passing numbers isn't an indictment against Long. Especially if he turns around our season these next few games. I'm guessing that the defenses we face these next couple of games are going to give our offense a chance to right the ship.

 

[anomander]

I'm so tired of the "excuse" excuse--it really is tiresome. Especially under the circumstances of last Saturday--playing a tough defense on the road in front of a huge, raucous crowd.



And AJ has played pretty well in his short game history. He ran into a buzz saw on Saturday. People are acting as though he's been subpar all along, when in actuality he's been pretty good.

That he isn't doing what O'Korn managed in a system that puts up huge passing numbers isn't an indictment against Long. Especially if he turns around our season these next few games. I'm guessing that the defenses we face these next couple of games are going to give our offense a chance to right the ship.

Read my post above it's nothing against AJ. I agree he has been fine, Saturday the offense as a whole got dominated just not him. I was just arguing against the fact that he is an 18 year old true Freshman for being the reason why. Same goes for Ishmael and any other true Freshman who played.

 

[RF2044]

Read my post above it's nothing against AJ. I agree he has been fine, Saturday the offense as a whole got dominated just not him. I was just arguing against the fact that he is an 18 year old true Freshman for being the reason why. Same goes for Ishmael and any other true Freshman who played.

It is ONE of the reasons why. And disregarding that reason [under Saturday's circumstances] doesn't make much sense to me.

The real test will be: what does AJ do next time on the road, against a quality opponent? Does he look equally as poor, or does he improve as a function of being throw to the wolves?

 

[dollarbill44]

How could you possibly think PTG has been our best returner? He has no clue when to run, no clue when to fair catch. Once, he even did both, I think...

Maybe the fact that his only ko return was 29 yards or that he has the longest punt return on the team this year and about 8 yards per return. Estime has been pretty good - when he's healthy.

 

[anomander]

It is ONE of the reasons why. And disregarding it doesn't make much sense to me.

So being a true Freshman is what made him throw 5 feet behind open receivers, or 10 feet in front? How so?

 

[RF2044]

So being a true Freshman is what made him throw 5 feet behind the receiver, or 10 feet in front? How so?

Because he allowed himself to get rattled in a way that a more experienced player probably would not--or at the very least, would be more prepared to handle. And because of hearing footsteps, he rushed the throw.

I'm not suggesting that being a true frosh led to poor physical execution, but it did lead to him poorly handling the pressure. And I wouldn't expect that from a more experienced player.

Honestly, this isn't a hard concept. Long hasn't started the entire year. He didn't spend the entire offseason as the team's developmental priority, or the preseason getting the majority of first team reps. He was a redshirt until a few weeks ago, called upon to see his first game action against the #1 team in the country. He and the entire offense got roughed up on Saturday. He played like a frosh in front of a hostile crowd, against a very good defense.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[cuseguy]

I stand by my belief that the team with the better QB generally wins.

It was too much to ask for Long to win at Clemson.

I'll be more confident in our ability to win when we have the edge at QB most weeks.

Hopefully that day isn't too far away.

 

[PhatOrange]

Anu Solomon went into Autzen Stadium and won as a true Freshman. DeShaun Watson was a dominant true Freshman. I am sure there are plenty more, but just like those guys AJ was here in January. With all the camps, and intricate HS systems these days it's not as hard as it used to be. Another advantage of being a qb in the South.

They are exceptions not norms. Those two kids are light years better than long. That shoops or swoopes kid down at Texas sucks. He was a top 5 a
Qb a couple years ago same class as Zach Allen (who by the way hasn't done jack either)

 

[SmilinBob]

The wr vs cb thing is very dependent of a bunch of variables and to be honest I haven't seen the film on how Ish did and if he did get open or had separation on situations that he could have been a target. I feel that Ish is extremely valuable in the red zone and we all know SU really wasn't there enough for him to make a difference and it is also possible that Broyld took away the spots he was going to previously and had success. We also don't know if Ish could have got open but the pressure on Long simply took it away and never gave it a chance to develop.