JB and the Bench

[AlpharettaCuse]

If you have lost MSOrange you have gone overboard.

MS just illustrated my point for me.

When I point out other great coaches that do the same thing as Boeheim, I get excuses. That's how I know it's just a reason to be critical of Boeheim.

As an example, you are critical for Boeheim only having 3 guards. Self has the same problem, but I don't hear you complaining about him. Self didn't have a guard quit the team a few games in, did he? Any of his guards get injured?

 

[Alsacs]

MS just illustrated my point for me.

When I point out other great coaches that do the same thing as Boeheim, I get excuses. That's how I know it's just a reason to be critical of Boeheim.

As an example, you are critical for Boeheim only having 3 guards. Self has the same problem, but I don't hear you complaining about him. Self didn't have a guard quit the team a few games in, did he? Any of his guards get injured?

He is saying both shut up. This is stupid and neither side is right or going to concede anything.

 

[orangecuse]

Here is what I believe to be relatively accurate as a fan of JB and the program since the 70's. JB's comfort zone throughout the years has been playing mainly 6-7 guys. His starters, for the most part, have always played a high number of minutes, with typically a couple of guys off the bench getting "real" minutes as well. What I mean by "real" is when the game is still in doubt, not guys who get minutes in a blowout, or in garbage time, etc. JB has been on record on various occasions stating his strong belief of being able to win with 7 guys...in the college game. This is and has been his voluntary choice and style he annually chooses to play. In all of the years of watching, I can't recall routinely having a deep bench. In my opinion, even if JB had 8-9 Mickey D kids on the roster, no more than 7 would get "real" minutes as again, this is JB's preferred style of play/comfort zone.

I think over the years, with SU traditionally being a "program" type school, the upperclassman guys typically got the lion's share of those minutes. As the upperclassman moved on, the underclassman, now upperclassman, moved into starter roles, or at least roles that found them some "real" minutes. I also believe he feels by playing only 6-7 guys, there is more continuity and consistency with the guys on the floor, giving his team the best chance of winning, which is what ultimately matters the most. However, I do feel with JB's chosen style of play, it's not unreasonable to draw a correlation to us traditionally typically having a weak or not very deep bench. There are pros and cons for sure, but JB has had a tremendous amount of success with his "system." He isn't going to change his thinking/ways, especially not at this very late stage of his coaching career.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

He is saying both shut up. This is stupid and neither side is right or going to concede anything.

Yeah...that's not what he said at all. He said Kansas has the same problem (no depth) as Syracuse, which is why Devonte Graham plays the entire game, like Battle. Imagine that.

 

[MSOrange]

He is saying both shut up. This is stupid and neither side is right or going to concede anything.

That's pretty much the bottom line. Yes it seemed like a good opportunity to get Washington some minutes the other night. That was my only minor issue, But otherwise, it was one of our most fun games to watch the entire season and I was thrilled with the performance.

And thanks for the kudos. I do try to see both sides of most issues as best as I can. I love JB - he's been responsible for my greatest sports memories. But doesn't mean I agree with how he approaches everything.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Here is what I believe to be relatively accurate as a fan of JB and the program since the 70's. JB's comfort zone throughout the years has been playing mainly 6-7 guys. His starters, for the most part, have always played a high number of minutes, with typically a couple of guys off the bench getting "real" minutes as well. What I mean by "real" is when the game is still in doubt, not guys who get minutes in a blowout, or in garbage time, etc. JB has been on record on various occasions stating his strong belief of being able to win with 7 guys...in the college game. This is and has been his voluntary choice and style he annually chooses to play. In all of the years of watching, I can't recall routinely having a deep bench. In my opinion, even if JB had 8-9 Mickey D kids on the roster, no more than 7 would get "real" minutes as again, this is JB's preferred style of play/comfort zone.

I think over the years, with SU traditionally being a "program" type school, the upperclassman guys typically got the lion's share of those minutes. As the upperclassman moved on, it the underclassman, now upperclassman, moved into starter roles, or at least roles that found them some "real" minutes. I also believe he feels by playing only 6-7 guys, there is more continuity and consistency with the guys on the floor, giving his team the best chance of winning, which is what ultimately matters the most. However, I do feel with JB's chosen style of play, it's not unreasonable to draw a correlation to us traditionally typically having a weak or not very deep bench. There are pros and cons for sure, but JB has had a tremendous amount of success with his "system." He isn't going to change his thinking/ways, especially not a this very late stage of his coaching career.

JB has said he'd prefer to play 8 guys. 8 is ideal.

 

[721Comstock]

JB has said he'd prefer to play 8 guys. 8 is ideal.

This. Exactly.
5 starters
1 guard
1 forward
1 center
.
.
.
bench fodder aka "human victory cigars" (o hai Mookie! )

 

[Townie72]

Townie is still posting on page 13. Tremendous effort on his part as JB would say.

Someone has to represent the truth here. It's hard work when you are dealing with:

Posters trying to prove they are smarter than Boeheim
Posters who appear outraged that this year's SU BB team isn't living up to their entitled expectations and want to lash out through criticism.

Neither group likes push-back on their opinions and so-called facts. That's what makes this fun.

 

[Consigliere]

I think it is amazing that every year we have a thread with hundreds of posts devoted to this non-issue. Our top players typically play 37 - 38 mpg. What's the optimal number? 32 - 33? So the extra two minutes of rest per half would make us an exponentially better basketball team? Would put "that extra bounce" in Tyus Battle's steps? Sorry, I don't buy it. I do buy JB's philosophy that "I'd rather have John Wallace at 75% than any one else at 100%."
Now could he have rotated Washington in for each of the big three against BC when we had a good sized working margin? I kind of think that would have been a low risk move. On the other hand, we were playing some of our best basketball of the year offensively and maybe JB felt he wanted to ride that as much as possible to reinforce the positives going forward.

Anyway, admins, can you archive this response, do a find and replace with the names and repost in next year's inevitable thread in case I get hit by a bus sometime in the next twelve months?

 

[Forloveoforange]

2012 was best and deepest, if that shows anything. I guess you know that if JB has that luxury he's going to be good.

 

[tbonezone]

well 4 minutes x 34 games = 139 minutes . that's roughly 3.5 extra full games played each season . facts. not opinion.

 

[Alsacs]

Townie is still posting on page 13. Tremendous effort on his part as JB would say.

His mind

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

well 4 minutes x 34 games = 139 minutes . that's roughly 3.5 extra full games played each season . facts. not opinion.

So?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Oh. Well, JB has roster issues because Taurean Thompson and Geno Thorpe quit the team.

What's Bill Self's excuse?

One of his biggest recruits didn't play this year.

 

[tbonezone]

KU has one player (graham) averaging over 34 mins. syracuse has 3 players over 37. this is not apples to apples. self rides one dude. we ride three.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

One of his biggest recruits didn't play this year.

Right. We had the same problem. Except we had 2 quit the team.

 

[tbonezone]

i believe one left becuz he wasn't getting playing time ? or am i mistaken ?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

KU has one player (graham) averaging over 34 mins. syracuse has 3 players over 37. this is not apples to apples. self rides one dude. we ride three.

Look at their box scores dude. 3 kids playing 35 plus every night.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

i believe one left becuz he wasn't getting playing time ? or am i mistaken ?

I don’t think so.

 

[tbonezone]

Look at their box scores dude. 3 kids playing 35 plus every night.

MSORANGE already was kind enuf to link you the kansas season stats. read them why don't you and get back.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

MSORANGE already was kind enuf to link you the kansas season stats. read them why don't you and get back.

Don’t look at season averages. Look at their last 8 games, meaning Big 12 games. Let me know what you find.

 

[tbonezone]

don't have to. tells me bill self must have been smart enuf to play and develop his bench minutes in the noncon games. wise move.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

don't have to. tells me bill self must have been smart enuf to play and develop his bench minutes in the noncon games. wise move.

Exactly. Self has developed his bench so much in the non conference game that he has nobody to spell Devonte Graham.

Moyer and Sidibe are probably not playing today. But you’ll criticize JB for “riding” his starters. Self does the same thing and you makes excuses. Anti-JB much?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Don’t look at season averages. Look at their last 8 games, meaning Big 12 games. Let me know what you find.

3 players in top 10 is not equal to 1 player in top 30. I don't know how this is escaping you...

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

3 players in top 10 is not equal to 1 player in top 30. I don't know how this is escaping you...

Who do you want to play more? Do you want to win games?

we’ve established playing 40 minutes is not a big deal for 1 kid. Other players around the country do it. Why is a problem if we have 3 different kids doing it?

I mean, you made excuses for Self and Alford, but not JB, which I find interesting.

We are down to 6 players today for Pitt, with Moyer and Sidibe likely out. But we’ll hear the usual crowd complaining that Boeheim rode his players too many minutes. As if JB is at fault for the injuries to Sidibe, Moyer and the defections of Thompson and Thorpe. JB can’t win with you fellas, even if he wins by 18.