JB and the Bench

[IthacaMatt]

And that if you never play your bench, it is also not debatable that the person you call on probably won't be as ready as they would have been, if they had been playing 7 or 8 minutes a game all season long. Then if somebody fouls out or gets injured, the person isn't a deer in the headlights.

Some people have been talking about roster management and roster planning lately.

I think an equally important attribute in a coach is building a deep enough squad to resist bad luck and the physical rigors of the season. Guys are going to take hard falls and turn their ankles, or take an elbow to the jaw at some point during the season. It happens to every team, every year.

I don't understand why more planning doesn't go into developing the team. He locks in on his "best" lineup early most seasons and doesn't change his rotations, except to shorten them, as the year goes on.

Only in rare instances have our lineups changed mid-season. We can count them on two hands, some of us fans who have been following the program for 40 years. This is a bad year for that, not that we even have the bodies to work with at this point.

 

[Waltdods]

Some people have been talking about roster management and roster planning lately.

I think an equally important attribute in a coach is building a deep enough squad to resist bad luck and the physical rigors of the season. Guys are going to take hard falls and turn their ankles, or take an elbow to the jaw at some point during the season. It happens to every team, every year.

I don't understand why more planning doesn't go into developing the team. He locks in on his "best" lineup early most seasons and doesn't change his rotations, except to shorten them, as the year goes on.

Only in rare instances have our lineups changed mid-season. We can count them on two hands, some of us fans who have been following the program for 40 years. This is a bad year for that, not that we even have the bodies to work with at this point.

I agree with most of the substance here but think this is a little unfair to JB. He has tweaked lineups as seasons have gone on - last year he massively changed the minutes distrivution at the point guard position as the season went on, to take the most recent example. Even this year, he seemed to have an open mind about the frontcourt (after Brissett), giving both dolezaj and Moyer opportunities to earn the bulk of the minutes at the 4 and chukwu and sidibe at the 5. Other examples I can think of - devendorfs freshman year, when mccroskey started for the first half or so of the season before being surpassed by Devo; the championship year where Pace fought himself into the rotation; tony bland dropping out of the rotation as the year went on; all those “token starter”seasons where Boeheim was plainly trying to get the token starter up to a place where he could contribute; 97, which was a almost year-long and mostly unsuccessful effort to find a rotation that didn’t suck (rock Lloyd!); 2012, where Boeheim was still playing 10 guys into march.

He finds his rotation and sticks with it, but he does keep fiddling if he’s not happy with the rotation. But he is always focused on the task immediately ahead of him; there never seems to be serious thought about the implications for next year or even next game.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I agree with most of the substance here but think this is a little unfair to JB. He has tweaked lineups as seasons have gone on -
He finds his rotation and sticks with it, but he does keep fiddling if he’s not happy with the rotation. But he is always focused on the task immediately ahead of him; there never seems to be serious thought about the implications for next year or even next game.

Fair enough, Walt. Points well made.

 

[orangehomer]

Some people have been talking about roster management and roster planning lately.

I think an equally important attribute in a coach is building a deep enough squad to resist bad luck and the physical rigors of the season. Guys are going to take hard falls and turn their ankles, or take an elbow to the jaw at some point during the season. It happens to every team, every year.

I don't understand why more planning doesn't go into developing the team. He locks in on his "best" lineup early most seasons and doesn't change his rotations, except to shorten them, as the year goes on.

Only in rare instances have our lineups changed mid-season. We can count them on two hands, some of us fans who have been following the program for 40 years. This is a bad year for that, not that we even have the bodies to work with at this point.

I think that people generally underestimate the razor thin margin for error that there is between winning and losing in college sports. no one, literally no one, would say that playing a younger guy to get him experience is worth losing a game over it. you play guys when they are ready to play, you don't play them to make them ready to play. JB is not going to lose a game over "developing" some player that isn't good.

 

[djcon57]

why doesn't Lebron play 48 in every playoff game?

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think that people generally underestimate the razor thin margin for error that there is between winning and losing in college sports. no one, literally no one, would say that playing a younger guy to get him experience is worth losing a game over it. you play guys when they are ready to play, you don't play them to make them ready to play. JB is not going to lose a game over "developing" some player that isn't good.

I've always seen this as a bit of a strawman.

Nobody is saying play the bench guys when the game is on the line. But when a starter makes a mistake, put in the bench guy for 3 or 4 minutes until the next media time out. And doing it early in the game, when the game is still undecided, is the time to do it. Maybe our starters would be fresher down the stretch.

Maybe we would not be crippled if a guy fouls out, because the guys on the bench have been playing, and maybe the guys on the bench wouldn't transfer out so often, if they saw more time on the floor and felt more a part of the team.

It's not "we don't want to win if we play subs". It's about managing things and keeping guys involved and bought into the team, and developing quality depth over time.

It's about setting up the next season, too. He used to think more about this. He always used to have a big man, a guard and a wing he could build around the next season. That's been a big key to his long-term success.

I guess in this age of so many guys leaving "just one year early", he doesn't want to invest that time, if they're gonna leave anyway. But you still have to do it, because whoever the next man up is, needs to be ready to play.

 

[djcon57]

I've always seen this as a bit of a strawman.

Nobody is saying play the bench guys when the game is on the line. But when a starter makes a mistake, put in the bench guy for 3 or 4 minutes until the next media time out. And doing it early in the game, when the game is still undecided, is the time to do it. Maybe our starters would be fresher down the stretch.

Maybe we would not be crippled if a guy fouls out, because the guys on the bench have been playing, and maybe the guys on the bench wouldn't transfer out so often, if they saw more time on the floor and felt more a part of the team.

It's not "we don't want to win if we play subs". It's about managing things and keeping guys involved and bought into the team, and developing quality depth over time.

It's about setting up the next season, too. He used to think more about this. He always used to have a big man, a guard and a wing he could build around the next season. That's been a big key to his long-term success.

I guess in this age of so many guys leaving "just one year early", he doesn't want to invest that time, if they're gonna leave anyway. But you still have to do it, because whoever the next man up is, needs to be ready to play.

Agreed. It's not suggesting I think HW should play over Howard for Battle, it's that he should steal mins and there so they are fresh at end of games

I think my beef is we are always told. If so and so plays, we will lose.

Well we saw HW come in after Frank fouled out and we were behind and we made it to OT...

I was told repeatedly we couldn't play Grant for Southerland that one year yet when he started playing more due to an academic suspension, we end going to final four. Same with Pace

 

[pfister1]

I think that people generally underestimate the razor thin margin for error that there is between winning and losing in college sports. no one, literally no one, would say that playing a younger guy to get him experience is worth losing a game over it. you play guys when they are ready to play, you don't play them to make them ready to play. JB is not going to lose a game over "developing" some player that isn't good.

Why can every single other program play guys off of their bench without assuming it's going to result in a loss?

 

[orangehomer]

I've always seen this as a bit of a strawman.

Nobody is saying play the bench guys when the game is on the line. But when a starter makes a mistake, put in the bench guy for 3 or 4 minutes until the next media time out. And doing it early in the game, when the game is still undecided, is the time to do it. Maybe our starters would be fresher down the stretch.

Maybe we would not be crippled if a guy fouls out, because the guys on the bench have been playing, and maybe the guys on the bench wouldn't transfer out so often, if they saw more time on the floor and felt more a part of the team.

It's not "we don't want to win if we play subs". It's about managing things and keeping guys involved and bought into the team, and developing quality depth over time.

It's about setting up the next season, too. He used to think more about this. He always used to have a big man, a guard and a wing he could build around the next season. That's been a big key to his long-term success.

I guess in this age of so many guys leaving "just one year early", he doesn't want to invest that time, if they're gonna leave anyway. But you still have to do it, because whoever the next man up is, needs to be ready to play.

so many of these games come down to a few possessions that go one way or the other. these players are so good, that literally playing a guy that isn't ready to play can cost you one or more possessions in a close game. no coach is going to risk losing games over trying to develop a guy that might be better next year. there is intense pressure to win. for instance, I like howard Washington, but the BC guards are straight up better than him right now, lets say JB plays him for 4 minutes and the game goes from an easy win to a 2 possession game. you cant risk that.

 

[orangehomer]

Why can every single other program play guys off of their bench without assuming it's going to result in a loss?

they have better players on their bench than we have right now, and their coaches probably aren't as good.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

why doesn't Lebron play 48 in every playoff game?

Because he’s 33 years old. And they play 100 games in the NBA, not 35. And he still plays 42 mpg.

 

[IthacaMatt]

so many of these games come down to a few possessions that go one way or the other. these players are so good, that literally playing a guy that isn't ready to play can cost you one or more possessions in a close game. no coach is going to risk losing games over trying to develop a guy that might be better next year. there is intense pressure to win. for instance, I like howard Washington, but the BC guards are straight up better than him right now, lets say JB plays him for 4 minutes and the game goes from an easy win to a 2 possession game. you cant risk that.

And you know what?

At the beginning of this season, you would have said that Paschal Chukwu will never be a college center. You would have still felt that 2 or 3 games into the season.

And look at him now!

And it could only happen with this one guy, right?

Guys might work on things in practice, but they don't REALLY improve until they're playing in games against guys from another team who really, really want to beat them.

That's when a player really grows his game.

 

[skurey]

Think JB is safe enough to risk a loss or two to develop guys for the future.

 

[djcon57]

Because he’s 33 years old. And they play 100 games in the NBA, not 35. And he still plays 42 mpg.

I didn't say every game, just playoffs. No back to backs. Why not 48? It's the playoffs. He should play every minute of every important game. Why doesn't he?

 

[djcon57]

Game 7 of the finals in 2016

Cavaliers vs. Warriors - Box Score - June 19, 2016 - ESPN

Not one player played the whole 48. Why not?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

And you know what?

At the beginning of this season, you would have said that Paschal Chukwu will never be a college center. You would have still felt that 2 or 3 games into the season.

And look at him now!

And it could only happen with this one guy, right?

Guys might work on things in practice, but they don't REALLY improve until they're playing in games against guys from another team who really, really want to beat them.

That's when a player really grows his game.

Chuckwu is in his 4th year. It sometimes takes a while to see significant improvement. These kids practive every day. Boeheim sees them every day. I’m not sure Howard Washington is getting much better by playing a few minutes per game. It takes time. See Frank Howard. That’s a lot of practice time, and that’s where their games grow.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Game 7 of the finals in 2016

Cavaliers vs. Warriors - Box Score - June 19, 2016 - ESPN

Not one player played the whole 48. Why not?

He played 47. Wow. Probably beacuse he’s 33 years old. And they play 100 games, not 35. Tyus Battle should have no problem playing 40.

 

[djcon57]

He played 47. Wow. Probably beacuse he’s 33 years old. And they play 100 games, not 35.

Why can't Battle play 38 instead of 40?
Why can't Howard play 35 instead of 40?

Why can't Washington play 7 mins?


And again no one can answer the question...so I'll answer it for you... Lebron doesn't play 48 because he gets tired

 

[orangehomer]

And you know what?

At the beginning of this season, you would have said that Paschal Chukwu will never be a college center. You would have still felt that 2 or 3 games into the season.

And look at him now!

And it could only happen with this one guy, right?

Guys might work on things in practice, but they don't REALLY improve until they're playing in games against guys from another team who really, really want to beat them.

That's when a player really grows his game.

chukwu seems to be a huge success, from a transfer point of view. but he is a redshirt junior, that's a lot different than a true freshman. I also disagree with your premise. basketball is the most competitive sport on earth and these guys have plenty of ways to find out if they are good enough way before playing D1

 

[orangehomer]

Why can't Battle play 38 instead of 40?
Why can't Howard play 35 instead of 40?

Why can't Washington play 7 mins?


And again no one can answer the question...so I'll answer it for you... Lebron doesn't play 48 because he gets tired

I answered it, its because howard Washington will lose you possessions. you cant risk his inexperience putting you into 1 or 2 possession games that you would have won easily. its not worth it.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I didn't say every game, just playoffs. No back to backs. Why not 48? It's the playoffs. He should play every minute of every important game. Why doesn't he?

Because not every game is the same. He doesnt’t need to play every minute if his team is getting blown out, or is blowing someone out, which happened in 3 of the 5 games against Golden State. It looks like when they needed him to play in the close ones he played almost every minute. Battle didn’t play in every minute of every game. He sat for 3 minutes against Pitt.

 

[Alsacs]

I find it funny guards like Dion Waiters, Scoop Jardine never played high 30 MPG.

Whereas our guards since 2014 all have played high 30 MPG.

Next year with Carey, Howard, Hughes and 3 legit guards do we have a rotation and Howard Washington as the 4th guard.

 

[Alsacs]

I answered it, its because howard Washington will lose you possessions. you cant risk his inexperience putting you into 1 or 2 possession games that you would have won easily. its not worth it.

Howard Washington makes our half court offense better.
He is our best passer and brings more ball handling. It’s his defense as to why he doesn’t play.

 

[djcon57]

Because not every game is the same. He doesnt’t need to play every minute if his team is getting blown out, or is blowing someone out. It looks like when the needed him to play in the close ones he played almost every minute. Battle didn’t play in every minute of every game. He sat for 3 minutes against Pitt.

How would the Cavs not need every minute out of Lebron in Game 7 of the NBA finals? He sat because he was tired. He got a breather and came back in. It would help Battle if he did the same.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Why can't Battle play 38 instead of 40?
Why can't Howard play 35 instead of 40?

Why can't Washington play 7 mins?


And again no one can answer the question...so I'll answer it for you... Lebron doesn't play 48 because he gets tired

Because it’s not that hard to play 40 minutes after 7 days off, and 3 days of rest coming up. With timeouts every 4 minutes. Lebron played 47 of 48 minutes in the box score you posted. He’s not getting tired. And 48 is a lot more than 40.