JB has changed

[Millhouse]

No idea what Millhouse is trying to convey.

Most coaches end their career poorly. That's the biggest reason why careers end. If they're sitting around laughing at Boeheim, they're going to feel foolish when their careers end and I'm willing to bet they're not even that good in the prime of their career if they're that stupid.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Most coaches end their career poorly. That's the biggest reason why careers end. If they're sitting around laughing at Boeheim, they're going to feel foolish when their careers end and I'm willing to be they're not even that good in the prime of their career if they're that stupid.

It won’t look that bad when we move on. Sweet 16 and two bad years after one of which was with both kids.

But this year is looking rough even a year ago we at least could hang in every game considering BB and Swider got NBA contracts for their shooting.

We need a huge recruiter to do a 180 the pieces on the roster for the next guy are nowhere close enough for what it takes to win right away.

 

[SUFan44]

Most coaches end their career poorly. That's the biggest reason why careers end. If they're sitting around laughing at Boeheim, they're going to feel foolish when their careers end and I'm willing to be they're not even that good in the prime of their career if they're that stupid.

In about 99% of the situations around the country, this level of performance comparative to investment level would not have been tolerated for 8 years.

Additionally, a second major violation within a program you oversee would not have been tolerated many other placed.

Of course the careers of coaches end. However, when has sub-standard level of performance been tolerated for extended periods because said coach had been there for 40 years?

Bob Knight was mediocre for 6 years at Indiana before a scandal pushed him out. He's the closest parallel to Jim Boeheim as I can see it. Are we waiting for a scandal?

 

[djcon57]

Most coaches end their career poorly. That's the biggest reason why careers end. If they're sitting around laughing at Boeheim, they're going to feel foolish when their careers end and I'm willing to be they're not even that good in the prime of their career if they're that stupid.

I'd only argue, and looked at the data, the majority of HOF level coaches on JB's level do not end as poorly as his career will.

Other coaches? For sure.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I strongly agree with this. John Gillon was outstanding player, did everything you wanted. But he was too short for the zone. It's too hard to find the point guard you need in a landscape where outside shooting is better overall

That only matters if you the Zone is your priority. The Zone shouldn't come first. It wasn't until 2013 that we became a D first team.

We used to have plenty of Gs who were not big and/or not good defenders. Heck we had SFs who are smaller than some of our Gs the last 8 years. We used the Zone to force TOs and fast break out of. We had quick guys who were good athletes and O first players. Now we use the Zone to force low % shots with a hand in your face.

The Zone of post 2013 causes a bunch of headaches in the NCAAT. It is a great post season weapon. The problem is we aren't getting to the NCAAT because the Zone alone is not good enough to win in the regular season. You need scorers.

 

[djcon57]

In about 99% of the situations around the country, this level of performance comparative to investment level would not have been tolerated for 8 years.

Additionally, a second major violation within a program you oversee would not have been tolerated many other placed.

Of course the careers of coaches end. However, when has sub-standard level of performance been tolerated for extended periods because said coach had been there for 40 years?

Bob Knight was mediocre for 6 years at Indiana before a scandal pushed him out. He's the closest parallel to Jim Boeheim as I can see it. Are we waiting for a scandal?

John Cheney is probably the actual closest parallel complete with gimmick defense he wouldnt get rid of. Minus the championship, of course.

 

[Bayside44]

In about 99% of the situations around the country, this level of performance comparative to investment level would not have been tolerated for 8 years.

Additionally, a second major violation within a program you oversee would not have been tolerated many other placed.

Of course the careers of coaches end. However, when has sub-standard level of performance been tolerated for extended periods because said coach had been there for 40 years?

Bob Knight was mediocre for 6 years at Indiana before a scandal pushed him out. He's the closest parallel to Jim Boeheim as I can see it. Are we waiting for a scandal?

In the nine ACC years he's averaged 20 regular season wins and the Sweet 16s and the FF. Most programs would take that. The last time Leonard Hamilton or Larranega took FSU or Miami to the FF was never.

For a guy pushing 80 where recruiting is floundering looking at that isn't the problem. Eventually things just end.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

"Last year we had the best shooting team imaginable."
best shooting perhaps .worst defensive probably.

That was the point of the post

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

In the nine ACC years he's averaged 20 regular season wins and the Sweet 16s and the FF. Most programs would take that. The last time Leonard Hamilton or Larranega took FSU or Miami to the FF was never.

For a guy pushing 80 where recruiting is floundering looking at that isn't the problem. Eventually things just end.

Is SU most programs? I get the circular reasoning that bit for JB the answer would likely be yes, but be that as it may, we should not be content with being like most programs.

 

[Bayside44]

Is SU most programs? I get the circular reasoning that bit for JB the answer would likely be yes, but be that as it may, we should not be content with being like most programs.

Lots of programs have one national championship. And we didn't exactly light the world on fire after that one for a while.

He's just his age and the players aren't coming like they did. Hard to counter that.

 

[Millhouse]

In about 99% of the situations around the country, this level of performance comparative to investment level would not have been tolerated for 8 years.

Additionally, a second major violation within a program you oversee would not have been tolerated many other placed.

Of course the careers of coaches end. However, when has sub-standard level of performance been tolerated for extended periods because said coach had been there for 40 years?

Bob Knight was mediocre for 6 years at Indiana before a scandal pushed him out. He's the closest parallel to Jim Boeheim as I can see it. Are we waiting for a scandal?

Heavens to betsy they didn't want to fire knight after all the success they had with him but violence to a player changed their mind

"Are we waiting for a scandal" Uh no, we're waiting for the best coach we'll ever have to retire.

 

[Millhouse]

Lots of programs have one national championship. And we didn't exactly light the world on fire after that one for a while.

He's just his age and the players aren't coming like they did. Hard to counter that.

K Wooden Smith Roy Williams Izzo Crum Rupp

the entire list of guys with more final 4s

I think Louisville looked bad when they forced him out and that was for Pitino. Rupp forced out because mandatory retirement age. Do we have a pitino ready?

No reason to force K, Smith, Williams, Rupp out, I know. Crum stumbled, i wonder about izzo

 

[Millhouse]

I'd only argue, and looked at the data, the majority of HOF level coaches on JB's level do not end as poorly as his career will.

Other coaches? For sure.

I agree, he held on longer than most coaches would. Kids and getting wins back. Unique situation and not ideal.

There seems to be this idea that if you don't want him to get canned, you don't expect it to end on a sour note. I've expected it for a long long time and i'm at peace with it

 

[djcon57]

I agree, he held on longer than most coaches would. Kids and getting wins back. Unique situation and not ideal.

There seems to be this idea that if you don't want him to get canned, you don't expect it to end on a sour note. I've expected it for a long long time and i'm at peace with it

I'd agree you've been consistent on that. I do, however, think the majority of folks here that don't want him "canned" think he's going to turn it around before he leaves

...and ftr I don't want him fired, I'd much prefer he leave on his own terms after this season. But if they win 12-15 games and he won't leave, my preference would be to let him go. I understand that in all likelihood wont be done, as well

 

[SUFan44]

In the nine ACC years he's averaged 20 regular season wins and the Sweet 16s and the FF. Most programs would take that. The last time Leonard Hamilton or Larranega took FSU or Miami to the FF was never.

For a guy pushing 80 where recruiting is floundering looking at that isn't the problem. Eventually things just end.

I said 8 years, not 9. You're adding one to help the argument. You're also adding in postseason runs which are less about health of a program and more about matchups and who is hot at the right time.

We haven't had a legitimate shot to win the NCAA Tournament since 2013-14. We made a Final Four, but we weren't beating UNC. We got a miraculous performance from Malachi Richardson. Great. But doesn't scream a healthy program.

Our ACC record is 74-72 over the last 8 years. .501 win percentage in conference. Average.

Our regular season record without any postseason tournaments over the last 8 years is 140-100. Average of 17.5 wins and a win percentage of .583.

By any metric, we are an average program over the last 8 years. And again, given the resources put in, that shouldn't be accepted.

 

[SUFan44]

Heavens to betsy they didn't want to fire knight after all the success they had with him but violence to a player changed their mind

"Are we waiting for a scandal" Uh no, we're waiting for the best coach we'll ever have to retire.

Hyperbole, but a point for emphasis.

He ain't leaving until they extract him. That's a huge problem, I don't care who you are.

 

[Millhouse]

Hyperbole, but a point for emphasis.

He ain't leaving until they extract him. That's a huge problem, I don't care who you are.

You're telling us he will never retire, ever? Give me a break

 

[Bayside44]

I said 8 years, not 9. You're adding one to help the argument. You're also adding in postseason runs which are less about health of a program and more about matchups and who is hot at the right time.

We haven't had a legitimate shot to win the NCAA Tournament since 2013-14. We made a Final Four, but we weren't beating UNC. We got a miraculous performance from Malachi Richardson. Great. But doesn't scream a healthy program.

Our ACC record is 74-72 over the last 8 years. .501 win percentage in conference. Average.

Our regular season record without any postseason tournaments over the last 8 years is 140-100. Average of 17.5 wins and a win percentage of .583.

By any metric, we are an average program over the last 8 years. And again, given the resources put in, that shouldn't be accepted.

I did the ACC years. If I wanted to do what you suggested I would've picked on the poster who said 10 years which would've given him another Final Four. Either way 99% of the programs in the country, maybe 95%, would've tolerated that.

JB is at the end of his arc and it's time for a bunch of reasons, but that's why. Not that the most of a decade was substandard to some.

 

[djorange1989]

I said 8 years, not 9. You're adding one to help the argument. You're also adding in postseason runs which are less about health of a program and more about matchups and who is hot at the right time.

We haven't had a legitimate shot to win the NCAA Tournament since 2013-14. We made a Final Four, but we weren't beating UNC. We got a miraculous performance from Malachi Richardson. Great. But doesn't scream a healthy program.

Our ACC record is 74-72 over the last 8 years. .501 win percentage in conference. Average.

Our regular season record without any postseason tournaments over the last 8 years is 140-100. Average of 17.5 wins and a win percentage of .583.

By any metric, we are an average program over the last 8 years. And again, given the resources put in, that shouldn't be accepted.

this is why JB keeps rattling on about the tourney being the only thing that matters, because the only success he has had in this 8 year window has been a couple of nice Sweet 16 runs and the Final Four run in '16. I remember when Syracuse Basketball was good in the regular season and in the postseason. yes I also remember when JB was considered a choker in the tourney with the streak of never winning 2 rounds in the tourney, in case anyone wants to remind me of that, you don't need to, 1986 and 1988 are burned into my soul

 

[SUFan44]

You're telling us he will never retire, ever? Give me a break

He has had multiple chances.

Waiting for anything with an uber-stubborn man is a fool's errand. It's going to get worse if administration does not step in and do what is necessary.

 

[SUFan44]

I did the ACC years. If I wanted to do what you suggested I would've picked on the poster who said 10 years which would've given him another Final Four. Either way 99% of the programs in the country, maybe 95%, would've tolerated that.

JB is at the end of his arc and it's time for a bunch of reasons, but that's why. Not that the most of a decade was substandard to some.

That is completely inaccurate.

Utah fired a guy who had the following record and accomplishments over a 6-year span in the Pac 12:

2014–15	Utah	26–9	13–5	T–2nd	NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2015–16	Utah	27–9	13–5	2nd	NCAA Second Round
2016–17	Utah	20–12	11–7	4th	NIT First Round
2017–18	Utah	23–12	11–7	T–3rd	NIT Runner-Up
2018–19	Utah	17–14	11–7	3rd
2019–20	Utah	16–15	7–11	T–8th
2020-21	Utah	12–13	8–11	8th

74-53 in his league (.583 win percentage) and 141-84 overall (.627). Per data in 2018 linked here, Utah spends the 5th-most amount on MBB in the Pac 12. SU 3rd-most in the ACC.

Up until the last two years before he was fired, Larry K. consistently outperformed spending. Jim Boeheim has consistently underperformed in all of them. One was let go after two bad years. The other is given carte blanche because of his years of service.

I can give you more examples if you wish, of schools not accepting mediocrity. Here are the final 8 years of John Chaney (who was mentioned before) at Temple:

1998–99	Temple	24–11	13–3	1st (East)	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1999–00	Temple	27–6	14–2	1st (East)	NCAA Division I Second Round
2000–01	Temple	24–13	12–4	T–2nd	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2001–02	Temple	19–15	12–4	T–1st (East)	NIT Third Place
2002–03	Temple	18–16	10–6	T–2nd (East)	NIT Quarterfinal
2003–04	Temple	15–14	9–7	2nd (East)	NIT First Round
2004–05	Temple	16–14	11–5	2nd (East)	NIT First Round
2005–06	Temple	17–16	8–8	T–7th	NIT Opening Round

By my estimation, that is 5 non-NCAA years but they were still in the top 1-2 of his division every year but his last. Meanwhile, JB has not been in the top third of the ACC since 2013-14.

Here are the final eight seasons of Denny Crum's tenure at Louisville.

1993–94	Louisville	28–6	10–2	1st	NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1994–95	Louisville	19–14	7–5	T–2nd	NCAA Division I First Round
1995–96	Louisville	22–12	10–4	T–3rd	NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1996–97	Louisville	26–9	9–5	T–5th	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1997–98	Louisville	12–20	9–5	5th (American)
1998–99	Louisville	19–11	11–5	2nd (American)	NCAA Division I First Round
1999–00	Louisville	19–12	10–6	2nd (American)	NCAA Division I First Round
2000–01	Louisville	12–19	8–8	5th (American)

Two Sweet 16's, an Elite 8, and a 74-40 league mark. If you want to remove the first one, I can do that for you. 64-38 record in league - a .627 league winning percentage over his final seven seasons. JB has a .501 league winning percentage over the last eight seasons. Another year coming up of average to below average, and one more to follow according to other posters.

I do not care who you are. This is a business. Boeheim has made a ton of money. He's made a ton of money for the University, and a lot of individuals. But if the operations of a business don't work anymore, it is time for a change. I don't care who you are and what you think your entitled to.

 

[Millhouse]

He has had multiple chances.

Waiting for anything with an uber-stubborn man is a fool's errand. It's going to get worse if administration does not step in and do what is necessary.

We all have multiple chances to retire while we are working and we only retire once. Just seems goofy to assume he'll never quit because he hasn't yet

 

[Bayside44]

That is completely inaccurate.

Utah fired a guy who had the following record and accomplishments over a 6-year span in the Pac 12:

2014–15	Utah	26–9	13–5	T–2nd	NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2015–16	Utah	27–9	13–5	2nd	NCAA Second Round
2016–17	Utah	20–12	11–7	4th	NIT First Round
2017–18	Utah	23–12	11–7	T–3rd	NIT Runner-Up
2018–19	Utah	17–14	11–7	3rd
2019–20	Utah	16–15	7–11	T–8th
2020-21	Utah	12–13	8–11	8th

74-53 in his league (.583 win percentage) and 141-84 overall (.627). Per data in 2018 linked here, Utah spends the 5th-most amount on MBB in the Pac 12. SU 3rd-most in the ACC.

Up until the last two years before he was fired, Larry K. consistently outperformed spending. Jim Boeheim has consistently underperformed in all of them. One was let go after two bad years. The other is given carte blanche because of his years of service.

I can give you more examples if you wish, of schools not accepting mediocrity. Here are the final 8 years of John Chaney (who was mentioned before) at Temple:

1998–99	Temple	24–11	13–3	1st (East)	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1999–00	Temple	27–6	14–2	1st (East)	NCAA Division I Second Round
2000–01	Temple	24–13	12–4	T–2nd	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2001–02	Temple	19–15	12–4	T–1st (East)	NIT Third Place
2002–03	Temple	18–16	10–6	T–2nd (East)	NIT Quarterfinal
2003–04	Temple	15–14	9–7	2nd (East)	NIT First Round
2004–05	Temple	16–14	11–5	2nd (East)	NIT First Round
2005–06	Temple	17–16	8–8	T–7th	NIT Opening Round

By my estimation, that is 5 non-NCAA years but they were still in the top 1-2 of his division every year but his last. Meanwhile, JB has not been in the top third of the ACC since 2013-14.

Here are the final eight seasons of Denny Crum's tenure at Louisville.

1993–94	Louisville	28–6	10–2	1st	NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1994–95	Louisville	19–14	7–5	T–2nd	NCAA Division I First Round
1995–96	Louisville	22–12	10–4	T–3rd	NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1996–97	Louisville	26–9	9–5	T–5th	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1997–98	Louisville	12–20	9–5	5th (American)
1998–99	Louisville	19–11	11–5	2nd (American)	NCAA Division I First Round
1999–00	Louisville	19–12	10–6	2nd (American)	NCAA Division I First Round
2000–01	Louisville	12–19	8–8	5th (American)

Two Sweet 16's, an Elite 8, and a 74-40 league mark. If you want to remove the first one, I can do that for you. 64-38 record in league - a .627 league winning percentage over his final seven seasons. JB has a .501 league winning percentage over the last eight seasons. Another year coming up of average to below average, and one more to follow according to other posters.

I do not care who you are. This is a business. Boeheim has made a ton of money. He's made a ton of money for the University, and a lot of individuals. But if the operations of a business don't work anymore, it is time for a change. I don't care who you are and what you think your entitled to.

All you posted is worse than JB.

He's about 80 and recruiting stinks. That's the argument.

 

[tptcuse]

All you posted is worse than JB.

He's about 80 and recruiting stinks. That's the argument.

Do the assistant coaches deserve any of the blame for the recruiting? I understand the loyalty to JB. I don't understand why there are NO changes.

 

[Bayside44]

That is completely inaccurate.

Utah fired a guy who had the following record and accomplishments over a 6-year span in the Pac 12:

2014–15	Utah	26–9	13–5	T–2nd	NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2015–16	Utah	27–9	13–5	2nd	NCAA Second Round
2016–17	Utah	20–12	11–7	4th	NIT First Round
2017–18	Utah	23–12	11–7	T–3rd	NIT Runner-Up
2018–19	Utah	17–14	11–7	3rd
2019–20	Utah	16–15	7–11	T–8th
2020-21	Utah	12–13	8–11	8th

74-53 in his league (.583 win percentage) and 141-84 overall (.627). Per data in 2018 linked here, Utah spends the 5th-most amount on MBB in the Pac 12. SU 3rd-most in the ACC.

Up until the last two years before he was fired, Larry K. consistently outperformed spending. Jim Boeheim has consistently underperformed in all of them. One was let go after two bad years. The other is given carte blanche because of his years of service.

I can give you more examples if you wish, of schools not accepting mediocrity. Here are the final 8 years of John Chaney (who was mentioned before) at Temple:

1998–99	Temple	24–11	13–3	1st (East)	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1999–00	Temple	27–6	14–2	1st (East)	NCAA Division I Second Round
2000–01	Temple	24–13	12–4	T–2nd	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2001–02	Temple	19–15	12–4	T–1st (East)	NIT Third Place
2002–03	Temple	18–16	10–6	T–2nd (East)	NIT Quarterfinal
2003–04	Temple	15–14	9–7	2nd (East)	NIT First Round
2004–05	Temple	16–14	11–5	2nd (East)	NIT First Round
2005–06	Temple	17–16	8–8	T–7th	NIT Opening Round

By my estimation, that is 5 non-NCAA years but they were still in the top 1-2 of his division every year but his last. Meanwhile, JB has not been in the top third of the ACC since 2013-14.

Here are the final eight seasons of Denny Crum's tenure at Louisville.

1993–94	Louisville	28–6	10–2	1st	NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1994–95	Louisville	19–14	7–5	T–2nd	NCAA Division I First Round
1995–96	Louisville	22–12	10–4	T–3rd	NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1996–97	Louisville	26–9	9–5	T–5th	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1997–98	Louisville	12–20	9–5	5th (American)
1998–99	Louisville	19–11	11–5	2nd (American)	NCAA Division I First Round
1999–00	Louisville	19–12	10–6	2nd (American)	NCAA Division I First Round
2000–01	Louisville	12–19	8–8	5th (American)

Two Sweet 16's, an Elite 8, and a 74-40 league mark. If you want to remove the first one, I can do that for you. 64-38 record in league - a .627 league winning percentage over his final seven seasons. JB has a .501 league winning percentage over the last eight seasons. Another year coming up of average to below average, and one more to follow according to other posters.

I do not care who you are. This is a business. Boeheim has made a ton of money. He's made a ton of money for the University, and a lot of individuals. But if the operations of a business don't work anymore, it is time for a change. I don't care who you are and what you think your entitled to.

Turgeon at Maryland is probably a much better case, but the donor and fanbase hated the guy, which seemed unfair.