Joe

[Hopkins16]

Joe is a streaky shooter. That's all he offers, and on a good team where he isn't asked to do more than what he brings to the table, he can come off the bench as a role player and be effective. This is on the coach.

 

[Scooch]

So, Jimmer is his role model, and I'd argue that the reason why Jimmer washed out of the NBA is because he doesn't understand how to play basketball.

Which sounds crazy! But it's true. He doesn't get it.

I remember he was on The Dan Patrick Show a few years back when he was joining the Westchester Knicks trying to make it back into the NBA. DP asked him what kind of feedback he was getting from NBA teams about things he needed to work on to stick in the NBA, probably expecting to hear Jimmer say things like improve his defense or make sure he takes good shots.

Instead Jimmer told DP that what NBA teams were telling him was that he just needed to find a team with a situation where they would let him play his game.

I'm pretty certain that's not the feedback he was given at all. He likes playing in China because they have fun with him just bombing away.

Now, I'm not saying that's Joe's mentality. Or putting the sins of Jimmer on Joe.

What I am saying is that's what a dude Joe looks up to believes and there's a chance they talked about stuff like this.

I could see Jimmer getting that feedback *IF* the person providing it is convinced that Jimmer ain’t changing his game.

And I can see Joe having the same mentality. Think about it… he had a wildly successful high school career and was recruited by several blue blood programs. He then went to one of those programs and has been a 4 year starter getting 30+ minutes a game. Why would he change his approach to hoops? From his perspective it’s all worked out really damn well.

 

[Orangezoo]

Joe is Braxton Beverley. The exception is that JB treats him like he is GMac 2.0. We have had talent since Joe's sophomore year that gives options to make Joe an off the bench guy. JB instead chose Joe. Joe is a good shooter but he is also streaky. Again with his limited size, weak defending and not having a strong handle vs pressure he should be used like Beverley was. There would not be a thing wrong with that and it would use him properly as a microwave guy.

Instead, we've seen two games where his play and lack of proper use has reduced our chances to win and thus we then lost.

JB is still playing "what if" with Joe when he shoots poorly hoping he will make a big shot late.

If this continues we will never be a dangerous team all year and likely be under. 500 again.

 

[Millhouse]

If you listened to JB's press conference last night, he said that Bryant was so worried about stopping both Joe and Jesse that it allowed Justin and Chris to get open looks.

Even if Joe is in the middle of the worst shooting drought in years, he still has value because the other team still has to guard him.

If you bench Joe, and Symir and Judah aren't outside shooters, it just clogs things up for Jesse and everyone else.

Ok but that doesn't explain why he is shooting the ball so much

 

[Millhouse]

also the issue with him being a catch and shoot shooter….and I was very wrong on this going into the season where I was thrilled he was finally going to play the 2…..he’s super lazy around screens. He’s walking. When the guy follows him, he stops. He’d rather do the dribble, shoot from 30 deal. It’s easier.

Easier and less obvious that he isn't quick enough

 

[Millhouse]

I'm worried we are going to get a not 10 games doover. How much of this is seeing McNamara in him and not remembering how they often struggled in the regular season?

 

[Cusefan0307]

We had a lot of the same conversations about Frank Howard.

 

[Scooch]

I'm worried we are going to get a not 10 games doover. How much of this is seeing McNamara in him and not remembering how they often struggled in the regular season?

JB looks at Joe and sees McNamara. 100%. It’s baffling because they are not the same player.

 

[Orangezoo]

JB looks at Joe and sees McNamara. 100%. It’s baffling because they are not the same player.

Not even close

 

[Millhouse]

JB looks at Joe and sees McNamara. 100%. It’s baffling because they are not the same player.

.375 and. 365 shooting percentage with a lot of two point attempts mixed in

Boeheim's biggest weakness is so frequently having gunner guards who are great shooters but don't make shots

 

[Scooch]

.375 and. 365 shooting percentage with a lot of two point attempts mixed in

Boeheim's biggest weakness is so frequently having gunner guards who are great shooters but don't make shots

I figured you’d bring up the shooting percentages. GMac was never a natural PG but he had ten times the handle the Joe does and averaged 2 more assists a game over his career. He also tried on defense and hustled his ass off all over the court. They are very different players.

 

[Cusefan0307]

.375 and. 365 shooting percentage with a lot of two point attempts mixed in

Boeheim's biggest weakness is so frequently having gunner guards who are great shooters but don't make shots

It’s 100% because he’s ok with terrible shot selection from guys he trusts over open shots from guys he doesn’t trust. It’s been this way for two decades. We’ve had a lot of good shooters with average to below average percentages because of it.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It’s 100% because he’s ok with terrible shot selection from guys he trusts over open shots from guys he doesn’t trust. It’s been this way for two decades. We’ve had a lot of good shooters with average to below average percentages because of it.

It's also why guards get shots but super efficient scoring bigs don't see the ball.

 

[Orangezoo]

.375 and. 365 shooting percentage with a lot of two point attempts mixed in

Boeheim's biggest weakness is so frequently having gunner guards who are great shooters but don't make shots

The stats are the only thing they have in common. You can't tell me you could watch them play side by side that they are close. Joe is slow footed and plays like Braxton Beverley. Gerry was much quicker and could beat his man and was also a gunner. He also won a lot of games in the two years he chucked the most.

As someone who was in the same class as Gmac, and saw him play a lot given we played against him in HS- then watched a lot of Joe in HS, their HS play was completely different as well. They impacted the game in different ways. Joe has far more limitations than Gerry did because of his lack of footspeed and athleticism.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The stats are the only thing they have in common. You can't tell me you could watch them play side by side that they are close. Joe is slow footed and plays like Braxton Beverley. Gerry was much quicker and could beat his man and was also a gunner. He also won a lot of games in the two years he chucked the most.

As someone who was in the same class as Gmac, and saw him play a lot given we played against him in HS- then watched a lot of Joe in HS, their HS play was completely different as well. They impacted the game in different ways. Joe has far more limitations than Gerry did because of his lack of footspeed and athleticism.

I think part of it is the era they played in. I loved Gerry and was on the hill for most of his career, but I don’t think he‘d be nearly as effective today just because of how the games evolved. Gerry didn’t need to cover nearly as much ground on Defense because before Steph Curry most teams had one or two shooters.

 

[Orangezoo]

I think part of it is the era they played in. I loved Gerry and was on the hill for most of his career, but I don’t think he‘d be nearly as effective today just because of how the games evolved. Gerry didn’t need to cover nearly as much ground on Defense because before Steph Curry most teams had one or two shooters.

I think that is some of it sure. That said Joe lumbers up and down the court compared to Gerry. Also Gerry got a good deal of lift on his jumper and was in general a better athlete. Joe barely gets off the ground.

I also agree Gerry might struggle in this current era. His decision making by year 4 was better than Joe's as well. Maybe not in terms of shot selection but in terms of as a distributor.

The above I am not in any way trying to glorify Gerry above what he was. He was a winner, a chucker and could play the point effectively enough. He was never sniffing an NBA roster and in the wider context won't ever be confused with the more athletic all around guys we have had at the position.

Gerry also more importantly had some leadership chops. Joe lacks that in spades along with the footspeed and athleticism.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think that is some of it sure. That said Joe lumbers up and down the court compared to Gerry. Also Gerry got a good deal of lift on his jumper and was in general a better athlete. Joe barely gets off the ground.

I also agree Gerry might struggle in this current era. His decision making by year 4 was better than Joe's as well. Maybe not in terms of shot selection but in terms of as a distributor.

The above I am not in any way trying to glorify Gerry above what he was. He was a winner, a chucker and could play the point effectively enough. He was never sniffing an NBA roster and in the wider context won't ever be confused with the more athletic all around guys we have had at the position.

Gerry also more importantly had some leadership chops. Joe lacks that in spades along with the footspeed and athleticism.

Yeah I don’t want to compare them at all because that’s not fair, but I watched a lot of games from 03-05 during the pandemic and the difference in where offenses got into their sets was fascinating.

 

[Orangezoo]

Yeah I don’t want to compare them at all because that’s not fair, but I watched a lot of games from 03-05 during the pandemic and the difference in where offenses got into their sets was fascinating.

Same. Have watched a lot of games from the past myself over that period if not just to watch a program that was effective. Wish there were more games from 09-12 out there to watch. There are some but not many.

 

[Millhouse]

I figured you’d bring up the shooting percentages. GMac was never a natural PG but he had ten times the handle the Joe does and averaged 2 more assists a game over his career. He also tried on defense and hustled his ass off all over the court. They are very different players.

Agree with all that.

 

[Millhouse]

The stats are the only thing they have in common. You can't tell me you could watch them play side by side that they are close. Joe is slow footed and plays like Braxton Beverley. Gerry was much quicker and could beat his man and was also a gunner. He also won a lot of games in the two years he chucked the most.

As someone who was in the same class as Gmac, and saw him play a lot given we played against him in HS- then watched a lot of Joe in HS, their HS play was completely different as well. They impacted the game in different ways. Joe has far more limitations than Gerry did because of his lack of footspeed and athleticism.

GMAC wasn't that good at beating his man and the defense wasn't great. He's superior in every way but the team can only be so good with a slow short guard who can't finish but thinks he can

 

[rocklloyd]

If memory serves, Gerry could run a fast break which we can’t seem to do anymore.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Joe still has 1 supporter. His is Mike Dow and he just called me fat for pointing out jg3 is not good

 

[two3zone]

Joe still has 1 supporter. His is Mike Dow and he just called me fat for pointing out jg3 is not good

Wait, what?!

 

[OrangeCrush22]

I recall (and I get we don’t have that guy, other than maybe an out of position Copeland) JB having his forwards bring the ball up against pressure (DC, Billy, Blackwell, Burgan, etc. ). Now he seems wedded to position titles.

I remember Melo bringing the ball up in the NC.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Wait, what?!

On Facebook made me laugh