Last Night's Loss is 99% on FH...

[RF2044]

I would think as a sophomore, if healthy he would at least go in and not turn the ball over and play decent defense.

Even if Carey didn’t do much out there, he could give us some minutes if he’d just not turn it over.

I guess what shocks me the most about Carey was that he was reputed to be a waterbug with a tight handle. How is it possible that we land point guard prospects [and not just Carey, the same was true of Kaleb Joseph] who don't seem to be able to dribble down their chin?

I actually expect -- if he sticks around -- that we'll see an entirely different Carey next year, one who shows exponentially greater command with the bounce. Because the alternative is that the coaching staff missed on two consecutive guys in a row that they've hand picked to turn the reins over to.

 

[longislandcuse]

I guess what shocks me the most about Carey was that he was reputed to be a waterbug with a tight handle. How is it possible that we land point guard prospects [and not just Carey, the same was true of Kaleb Joseph who don't seem to be able to dribble down their chin?

I actually expect -- if he sticks around -- that we'll see an entirely different Carey next year, one who shows exponentially greater command with the bounce. Because the alternative is that the coaching staff missed on two consecutive guys in a row that they've hand picked to turn the reins over to.

It’s really bizarre. I don’t want to say Kaleb Joseph 2.0, but so far, he looks exactly like Kaleb Joseph.

 

[ForCuseSake]

Exactly. It was an 8/9 game. We saw two equal teams out there last night.

I credit Drew for switching defenses. That bought them enough stops to win.

Boeheim, obviously did not.

Why can’t we acknowledge this? In a toss up game, coaching was the difference.

I think you've played too much Madden if you think the difference in last night's game was purely coaching.

You do agree that players aren't tethered to a joystick that the coach controls, right?

Have you coached a team sport at any level? I can't imagine anyone with minimal coaching experience so aggressively blaming last night's loss on Jim Boeheim.

It's not an intelligent hill to die on.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Our players were gassed because our coach refused to develop a bench, and the little bit of bench he had (Carey), he refused to play.

We also could’ve token pressed to disrupt rhythm. Doesn’t take much energy to do that throughout the game. Man to Man for a couple possessions here and there does not zap your energy to irreversible levels.

I really thought after this loss, to a mediocre Baylor, giving up 16 threes would leave the Boeheim apologist crowd without excuses. ...But y’all have outdone yourselves. Frank Howard, who was trashed all year by some of these same posters, and “altitude” is now the reason. Ok, got it.

FYI...I am one of Frank's biggest defenders. if you don't believe it, check out my responses to people who bash him.

"Altitude". Tell you what. I will meet you at any outdoor track on the planet.

We will do my interval workout, with each of us wearing the altitude mask after the timed mile, the 5 minutes of rest and the first 400.

We'll see if you even make it to the end of the 6 400s. He!!, we'll see if you even finish the mile. I hope, for your sake, you ran track or XC in high school/college. If so, you'll have a shot. If not, LOL...

And don't tell me you "jog" to keep in shape.

Intervals are a totally different animal.

Intervals with minimal rest to maximize formation of lactic acid are immensely painful. Think your heart exploding out of your chest from sheer exhaustion after.every.single.one..

Unless you do them, you have no idea how painful they are. And doing them in an altitude mask makes them exponentially worse.

Remember, only 5 minutes of rest after the mile and 2 minutes of rest in between the 400s. less for the 200s and the 100s.

So laugh away at my "altitude" explanation and go ahead and denigrate it to your heart's content...and we'll see how you do when the rubber meets the track - so to speak.

And just an FYI...this is the workout I started doing with my high school aged daughter a few years ago to help get her in shape for soccer tryouts where the requirement was 2 miles in 12 minutes - in the middle of the afternoon under the blazing sun in 90 degree heat and high humidity in the middle of the summer in northern New Jersey...

She would run, puke, run, puke, run, puke from beginning until the end. And she was 15 at the time. it took her a month to get through the workout without puking.

How old are you?

 

[longislandcuse]

I think you've played too much Madden if you think the difference in last night's game was purely coaching.

You do agree that players aren't tethered to a joystick that the coach controls, right?

Have you coached a team sport at any level? I can't imagine anyone with minimal coaching experience so aggressively blaming last night's loss on Jim Boeheim.

It's not an intelligent hill to die on.

So it was the players? Who recruited them?

Was it the strategy? Who coaches them?

Was it the depth? Who develops them?

Either way you slice it, it comes back to coaching. So, if you’d also like to exempt JB from blame for last night due to any of the above, you’re really just shifting blame to losing the game before it ever even started.

 

[ForCuseSake]

So it was the players? Who recruited them?

Was it the strategy? Who coaches them?

Was it the depth? Who develops them?

Either way you slice it, it comes back to coaching. So, if you’d also like to exempt JB from blame for last night due to any of the above, you’re really just shifting blame to losing the game before it ever even started.

I'd hate to have to coach your kid.

 

[longislandcuse]

I'd hate to have to coach your kid.

I wouldn’t send my kid to play for a coach that was wed exclusively to playing a defense, and recruiting to that defense, in an era where that defense is becoming less and less effective in exclusivity, so you wouldn’t have to worry about it.

It’s like running a 3-4 defense with a bunch of run stuffing linebackers 100% of the time in modern day football.

 

[Cuseball]

Compared to Battle's / Buddy's superlative ball handling?

Buddy has been terrific all year. He's going to be a great player here throughout his career, so this isn't means as a dig against him. But last night, he was off -- wasn't his night. He didn't contribute in any fashion, including ball handling. Switching Hughes there wouldn't have resulted in a net decline in ball handling. It might have actually increased it, because at least Marek is comfortable out there with the ball in his hands.

I agree -- Carey was not the answer. Boeheim's not going to play a guy he doesn't trust in a crunch game, ESPECIALLY a single elimination game. So, with Buddy not producing -- Hughes shifting up would have made all the sense in the world, and would have been a creative way to get the best five players on the floor without having to make a like-to-like backcourt substitution.

agreed, Buddy will be very good long term. Last night it was just not working for Buddy. On offense, especially on defense and when we tried to press. If folks want to argue that Carey did not deserve any minutes then there really should have been an attempt at Eli at the 2G.

The sequences when Mason was obviously hobbled and if you made him cover anyone but Buddy he would have either fouled or worn down. Instead he barely had to work since Buddy posed no threat off the dribble and was not even moving tons to get open. Maybe the moment was a little too big for him?

When we went to press, you need speed to create turnovers and that is not Buddy's strength.

Disappointed that there were absolutely no adjustments.

Cuse

 

[supp]

I wouldn’t send my kid to play for a coach that was wed exclusively to playing a defense, and recruiting to that defense, in an era where that defense is becoming less and less effective in exclusivity, so you wouldn’t have to worry about it.

It’s like running a 3-4 defense with a bunch of run stuffing linebackers 100% of the time in modern day football.

People can accept that football can change but somehow basketball is an anomaly. Bizarre.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I guess what shocks me the most about Carey was that he was reputed to be a waterbug with a tight handle. How is it possible that we land point guard prospects [and not just Carey, the same was true of Kaleb Joseph] who don't seem to be able to dribble down their chin?

I actually expect -- if he sticks around -- that we'll see an entirely different Carey next year, one who shows exponentially greater command with the bounce. Because the alternative is that the coaching staff missed on two consecutive guys in a row that they've hand picked to turn the reins over to.

It really shouldn't shock you.

Out of the extensive list of JB point guards that I posted earlier, how many came in ready to be elite point guards at the college level?

I can think of 2. Pearl and Ennis. Maybe Sherm even though he had Pearl in front of him. Maybe Autry. Autry was post college and pre-every game on ESPN so I rarely got to see him play.

Most did not have to come and and start as Freshmen and had the luxury of learning in practice, early OOC games against easy competition before finding a seat on the bench for the Bgi East regular seasons. Hart was brutal as a freshman. Z was awful until his senior year.

How many came in and replaced entrenched senior starters? One. Pearl. He replaced Gene Waldron as the PG when Waldron was a senior.

Pearl - Only arguably the greatest player in SU history outside of Dave Bing and Carmelo.

So, it should not be a surprise at all that an incoming freshman point guard would not be able to supplant a senior starting point guard. That incoming frosh would have to be really special...like Pearl.

 

[ForCuseSake]

I wouldn’t send my kid to play for a coach that was wed exclusively to playing a defense, and recruiting to that defense, in an era where that defense is becoming less and less effective in exclusivity, so you wouldn’t have to worry about it.

It’s like running a 3-4 defense with a bunch of run stuffing linebackers 100% of the time in modern day football.

What happens when your kid's coach loses a game, Mr. "Either way you slice it, it comes back to coaching" ?

I mean, you carefully selected the right coach to make sure he/she wasn't wedded to an exclusive defensive philosophy that is becoming less and less effective.

What then?

 

[longislandcuse]

What happens when your kid's coach loses a game, Mr. "Either way you slice it, it comes back to coaching" ?

I mean, you carefully selected the right coach to make sure he/she wasn't wedded to an exclusive defensive philosophy that is becoming less and less effective.

What then?

Id know that they’re not stubborn and antequated in their approach so I wouldn’t have an issue with them?

 

[RF2044]

It really shouldn't shock you.

Out of the extensive list of JB point guards that I posted earlier, how many came in ready to be elite point guards at the college level?

I can think of 2. Pearl and Ennis. Maybe Sherm even though he had Pearl in front of him. Maybe Autry. Autry was post college and pre-every game on ESPN so I rarely got to see him play.

Most did not have to come and and start as Freshmen and had the luxury of learning in practice, early OOC games against easy competition before finding a seat on the bench for the Bgi East regular seasons. Hart was brutal as a freshman. Z was awful until his senior year.

How many came in and replaced entrenched senior starters? One. Pearl. He replaced Gene Waldron as the PG when Waldron was a senior.

Pearl - Only arguably the greatest player in SU history outside of Dave Bing and Carmelo.

So, it should not be a surprise at all that an incoming freshman point guard would not be able to supplant a senior starting point guard. That incoming frosh would have to be really special...like Pearl.

Your extensive response has ZERO to do with the point I was making. I didn't say "come in ready to be an elite point guard" or come in and dislodge a senior starter.

What I actually said was that I was surprised that Carey and Joseph came in UNABLE TO DRIBBLE -- which is a fundamental skill for even journeymen point guards, let alone elite ones.

 

[ForCuseSake]

It really shouldn't shock you.

Out of the extensive list of JB point guards that I posted earlier, how many came in ready to be elite point guards at the college level?

I can think of 2. Pearl and Ennis. Maybe Sherm even though he had Pearl in front of him. Maybe Autry. Autry was post college and pre-every game on ESPN so I rarely got to see him play.

Most did not have to come and and start as Freshmen and had the luxury of learning in practice, early OOC games against easy competition before finding a seat on the bench for the Bgi East regular seasons. Hart was brutal as a freshman. Z was awful until his senior year.

How many came in and replaced entrenched senior starters? One. Pearl. He replaced Gene Waldron as the PG when Waldron was a senior.

Pearl - Only arguably the greatest player in SU history outside of Dave Bing and Carmelo.

So, it should not be a surprise at all that an incoming freshman point guard would not be able to supplant a senior starting point guard. That incoming frosh would have to be really special...like Pearl.

I would add Jonny Flynn to that list of guys ready to be elite at the college level. He had a great rookie year.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I would add Jonny Flynn to that list of guys ready to be elite at the college level. He had a great rookie year.

Great point. Well done.

I overlooked Flynn because we went to the NIT his freshman year. We were a 3 seed with Pearl as a frosh and a 3 seed with Ennis as a frosh.

He assist-TO ratio was 2 to 1 - remarkable for a frosh and better than Pearl; not close to Ennis' 3.2 to 1 but the Ennis team played at a much more deliberate pace than both Flynn's and Pearl's teams...and he averaged almost 16 pts per game.

Great find. Great recall. Cannot believe I overlooked him.

And we all thought that JB recruited Flynn just to guarantee we'd get Harris...LOL...

 

[ForCuseSake]

And we all thought that JB recruited Flynn just to guarantee we'd get Harris...LOL...

Guilty as charged.

Edit - I can't believe it's been 12 years since Flynn started his SU career. Holy crap, time flies.

 

[manleyzoo]

FYI...I am one of Frank's biggest defenders. if you don't believe it, check out my responses to people who bash him.

"Altitude". Tell you what. I will meet you at any outdoor track on the planet.

We will do my interval workout, with each of us wearing the altitude mask after the timed mile, the 5 minutes of rest and the first 400.

We'll see if you even make it to the end of the 6 400s. He!!, we'll see if you even finish the mile. I hope, for your sake, you ran track or XC in high school/college. If so, you'll have a shot. If not, LOL...

And don't tell me you "jog" to keep in shape.

Intervals are a totally different animal.

Intervals with minimal rest to maximize formation of lactic acid are immensely painful. Think your heart exploding out of your chest from sheer exhaustion after.every.single.one..

Unless you do them, you have no idea how painful they are. And doing them in an altitude mask makes them exponentially worse.

Remember, only 5 minutes of rest after the mile and 2 minutes of rest in between the 400s. less for the 200s and the 100s.

So laugh away at my "altitude" explanation and go ahead and denigrate it to your heart's content...and we'll see how you do when the rubber meets the track - so to speak.

And just an FYI...this is the workout I started doing with my high school aged daughter a few years ago to help get her in shape for soccer tryouts where the requirement was 2 miles in 12 minutes - in the middle of the afternoon under the blazing sun in 90 degree heat and high humidity in the middle of the summer in northern New Jersey...

She would run, puke, run, puke, run, puke from beginning until the end. And she was 15 at the time. it took her a month to get through the workout without puking.

How old are you?

Lemme get this straight...you put a 15-year old through interval training in 90 degree heat under blazing sun in high humidity until she puked multiple times to prepare her to play high school soccer? Just checking.

 

[OrangePA]

and 1% on JB.

JB said back in November that TB was not a point guard and that playing TB at the 1 was NOT a recipe for success.

He reiterated after the first Duke game that TB could play the point and be effective for a few minutes here and there but that it was not a long-term solution.

Last night was simply a return to UConn and Oregon.

TB at the point, BB, instead of JC, at the 2. It was a miserable failure back in November. Why did anyone think that it would be different last night? Because TB had had some success running the point against Duke for a few minutes and in subsequent games?

TB wasn't really running the point. Cassius Winston from MSU runs the point.

TB running the point means that TB gets the ball and goes to the rack or pulls up for the J every time...

That is not playing the point. People can call it playing the 1, but it is not playing the point.

The point gets everyone else involved. The point gets guys the ball in the right spots where guys can do damage on the offensive end. TB has zero abilty to do that. Cassius Winston does it to perfection.

So did Tyler Ennis and MCW and Scoop and Billy Edelin and Jason Hart and Z and Autry and Stevie Thompson (NOT!!! - forced to play out of position - just like TB) and Sherm and Pearl and Waldron and Eddie Moss. THEY were point guards..

TB was playing the 1 in a 2's clothing.

JB completely mismanged the guards' minutes last night and it likely cost us our season but, in Carey's 3 minutes of play he managed to penetrate way too deep the first time he got the opportunity and picked up a charge. What was JB supposed to do? Leave the TO machine out there? JC had been miserable throughout ACC play. That is the 1% on JB. C'mon. Wake the PH up.

I hate that I am posting this because I really hate it when posters go after coaches and players but for our senior PG to do something that risked his ability to play in the tourney is being as impossibly stupid as it gets.

We have had a lot of important players miss the tourney, miss tourney games or be hampered by illness or injury:
Marty Headd - fractured wrist in 1981 right before Big East tourney and missed NCAA tournament,
Sherman Douglas - sick in 88 vs Rhode Island,
DC back injury in 89 vs Illinois,
The Wright brothers (not really brothers) in 2005 suspended for Vermont game;
Onuaku - leg injury vs G'town in 2010 Big East tourney and missed NCAA tourney;
2012 - Fab Melo - suspended during Big East tourney and missed NCAA tournament - he should never have been in college to begin with - spent his entire college off the court career at Chuck's and his academic "tutor" wrote his papers for him...

Injuries and illnesses happen and are uncontrollable. Fab Melo was brutally disappointing as he never should have been in college and was only a sophomore but this one is worse. Frank is a SENIOR LEADER!

The Wright Brothers were not important players but Frank was a senior starter...just sooooooo disappointing and it really was, unfortunately, a very fitting ending for a player who had a very, very, very checkered career on the hill.

If you are pinning this loss on JB and not on FH then you don't know what the PH you are talking about. This loss was 99% on FH

During the first half, Tyus Battle handled the point quite well in my opinion.

He distributed the ball to the wings - without dribbling - very effectively.

The ball really moved. And, because of that TB helped create a decent number of shots. The best sequence ended with a Delajaz pass to Brissette for an easy dunk.

That was not what happened in the second half.

During the final twenty minutes, TB did what he has done - and what others have done - all season. He dribbled the ball - tried to take his opponent one-on-one - and failed to distribute.

As a result, we did not create enough good shots to compete - and we had every opportunity to do so.

That has been my complaint all season - the ball never moved - few good shots were created.

Very disappointing season.

 

[Millhouse]

FYI...I am one of Frank's biggest defenders. if you don't believe it, check out my responses to people who bash him.

"Altitude". Tell you what. I will meet you at any outdoor track on the planet.

We will do my interval workout, with each of us wearing the altitude mask after the timed mile, the 5 minutes of rest and the first 400.

We'll see if you even make it to the end of the 6 400s. He!!, we'll see if you even finish the mile. I hope, for your sake, you ran track or XC in high school/college. If so, you'll have a shot. If not, LOL...

And don't tell me you "jog" to keep in shape.

Intervals are a totally different animal.

Intervals with minimal rest to maximize formation of lactic acid are immensely painful. Think your heart exploding out of your chest from sheer exhaustion after.every.single.one..

Unless you do them, you have no idea how painful they are. And doing them in an altitude mask makes them exponentially worse.

Remember, only 5 minutes of rest after the mile and 2 minutes of rest in between the 400s. less for the 200s and the 100s.

So laugh away at my "altitude" explanation and go ahead and denigrate it to your heart's content...and we'll see how you do when the rubber meets the track - so to speak.

And just an FYI...this is the workout I started doing with my high school aged daughter a few years ago to help get her in shape for soccer tryouts where the requirement was 2 miles in 12 minutes - in the middle of the afternoon under the blazing sun in 90 degree heat and high humidity in the middle of the summer in northern New Jersey...

She would run, puke, run, puke, run, puke from beginning until the end. And she was 15 at the time. it took her a month to get through the workout without puking.

How old are you?

are you bragging about that? friggin weird

 

[Millhouse]

During the first half, Tyus Battle handled the point quite well in my opinion.

He distributed the ball to the wings - without dribbling - very effectively.

The ball really moved. And, because of that TB helped create a decent number of shots. The best sequence ended with a Delajaz pass to Brissette for an easy dunk.

That was not what happened in the second half.

During the final twenty minutes, TB did what he has done - and what others have done - all season. He dribbled the ball - tried to take his opponent one-on-one - and failed to distribute.

As a result, we did not create enough good shots to compete - and we had every opportunity to do so.

That has been my complaint all season - the ball never moved - few good shots were created.

Very disappointing season.

yes, I agree. brissett was part of that too. those two guys can't resist going into I GOT THIS mode

i sound like the old mrs lincoln joke as bad as boeheim shot the ball, he was good at moving the ball around until everything bogged down. I loved boeheim's pass on the play you mentioned

 

[Cusefan0307]

When’s the last time Battle or Brissett penetrated and passed to someone?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Battle managed the game well playing out of position got guys open looks. Expecting him to dominate and win us that game is too much. The other guard lost us the game.

Wasn't blaming Battle. For that team to win, he had to be great. He wasn't.

 

[Trueblue25]

this threads gaining some gild

 

[Millhouse]

Lemme get this straight...you put a 15-year old through interval training in 90 degree heat under blazing sun in high humidity until she puked multiple times to prepare her to play high school soccer? Just checking.

then he bragged on the internet about it

 

[manleyzoo]

then he bragged on the internet about it

Well I was just checking to see if I read it right