Laying it out

[TheCusian]

I blame shafer for the mess. Doug left him a program heading in the right direction and he took it a couple steps backward in 3 years, he didn't drive it off a cliff but he definitely left Dino in a rough spot . I though shafer did fine his 1st years considering what he lost on offense but he could never find an O system that worked, people are to easy on shafer ( we all liked the guy) because he was actually pretty bad as a HC as well as recruiting.

We vastly overrate just where Marrone left the program. He was a bad recruiter.

 

[SWC75]

Let's let Dino recruit a full class and then see how they work out before judging him as a recruiter. Anybody with eyes can see that our talent on defense is at an FCS level right now. And we are playing teams with Top 10 or 20 talent. let's play some teams with normal talent for this level to see how bad we really are.

 

[Alsacs]

If this is Saturday hyperbole reaction a loss, ok got it. It if it's not, and you are actually serious...

Scott Shafer is not the reason the program is in trouble right now. Not even close.

44cuse

Yes he is. The administration green lighted the Ensley project. Greg Robinson set the program back 2 years but he left Marrone Nassib,Lemon, Delone Carter, Pugh, the Jones brothers.
His stain was erased by the end of Marrone Era. We were no longer pathetic in the college football landscape.
We handed the keys after Marrone left to an unqualified guy who had no business being a P5 coach. People can like the guy and say how good a person he is. Facts are he was an awful HC and didn't recruit to an ACC level.
Our talent on defense for this guy who is a defensive guy is bad.

We are in trouble now because our last HC did a terrible job. Just because he was nice to local HS coaches and was a good man doesn't mean the program took a step back to the Greg Robinson era because of Scott Shafer's tenure.


That hiring after Marrone left is why Babers has an uphill battle that I have fiats he will turn around.

 

[orange44]

Dumb.

It's the admin for not helping P get better facilities. It's P for not changing with the times. It's Robinson. Lots of Robinson. It's Marrone for not recruiting well and leaving at the wrong time. It's the admin for not supporting Dougie well. It's the admins fault for not widening the search and hiring Shafer. It's Shafer hiring bad O coordinators. It's Shafer's lack of improvement in recruiting. It's the admin for over scheduling OOC.

It's a lot of things. And it's fixable, but not in one off-season. Babers and Wildhack are turning the freighter around but it will take time.

Could not have said it better!

 

[TheCusian]

Yes he is. The administration green lighted the Ensley project. Greg Robinson set the program back 2 years but he left Marrone Nassib,Lemon, Delone Carter, Pugh, the Jones brothers.
His stain was erased by the end of Marrone Era. We were no longer pathetic in the college football landscape.
We handed the keys after Marrone left to an unqualified guy who had no business being a P5 coach. People can like the guy and say how good a person he is. Facts are he was an awful HC and didn't recruit to an ACC level.
Our talent on defense for this guy who is a defensive guy is bad.

We are in trouble now because our last HC did a terrible job. Just because he was nice to local HS coaches and was a good man doesn't mean the program took a step back to the Greg Robinson era because of Scott Shafer's tenure.


That hiring after Marrone left is why Babers has an uphill battle that I have fiats he will turn around.

Marrone couldn't recruit, either.

 

[Stern]

Yes he is. The administration green lighted the Ensley project. Greg Robinson set the program back 2 years but he left Marrone Nassib,Lemon, Delone Carter, Pugh, the Jones brothers.
His stain was erased by the end of Marrone Era. We were no longer pathetic in the college football landscape.
We handed the keys after Marrone left to an unqualified guy who had no business being a P5 coach. People can like the guy and say how good a person he is. Facts are he was an awful HC and didn't recruit to an ACC level.
Our talent on defense for this guy who is a defensive guy is bad.

We are in trouble now because our last HC did a terrible job. Just because he was nice to local HS coaches and was a good man doesn't mean the program took a step back to the Greg Robinson era because of Scott Shafer's tenure.


That hiring after Marrone left is why Babers has an uphill battle that I have fiats he will turn around.

Bingo. Said it perfectly. We can't blame Pasqualoni and GRob forever. There is an expatriation date on that. This mess is at the feet of Doug and Scott

 

[Crusty]

With so many underclassmen in the 2 deep, I think it is fair to say we have a talent gap. Where are the upper class men?
A senior and red shirt senior on this squad would have been part of the the 2013 and 2012 recruiting classes, respectively. Clearly, 2012 was FHCDM and arguably most of 2013.

Shafer had two classes of his own, 2014 and 2015. Babers reshuffled 2016 so count that as you may.

Couple of points: 1) three times in the 2012 - 2016 recruiting period, the classes were blown up; 2) the cupboard was pretty bare after the 2012 team graduated; 3) our losses and turmoil during Shafer's last year probably hurt recruiting.

It seems obvious to me that while the youngsters on the 2 deep are something to build on, we need a few years of recruiting with Babers staff to get enough ACC caliber players to provide sufficient depth across all three teams. Not to mention the benefits of greater competition for playing time.

Realism is important at this point. We have a very good staff with a system attractive to recruits and we simply need time. This year's W-L record means little to me - progress by the end of the season is more important as is the 2017 recruiting class.

 

[SWC75]

With so many underclassmen in the 2 deep, I think it is fair to say we have a talent gap. Where are the upper class men?
A senior and red shirt senior on this squad would have been part of the the 2013 and 2012 recruiting classes, respectively. Clearly, 2012 was FHCDM and arguably most of 2013.

Shafer had two classes of his own, 2014 and 2015. Babers reshuffled 2016 so count that as you may.

Couple of points: 1) three times in the 2012 - 2016 recruiting period, the classes were blown up; 2) the cupboard was pretty bare after the 2012 team graduated; 3) our losses and turmoil during Shafer's last year probably hurt recruiting.

It seems obvious to me that while the youngsters on the 2 deep are something to build on, we need a few years of recruiting with Babers staff to get enough ACC caliber players to provide sufficient depth across all three teams. Not to mention the benefits of greater competition for playing time.

Realism is important at this point. We have a very good staff with a system attractive to recruits and we simply need time. This year's W-L record means little to me - progress by the end of the season is more important as is the 2017 recruiting class.

It's not just the coaches: it's the churning of the coaching staff that is responsible for the talent gap.

 

[Crusty]

It's not just the coaches: it's the churning of the coaching staff that is responsible for the talent gap.

I think that is the point. Two disruptions in five years is devastating on recruiting and development.

 

[orangeinjersey]

Wonder how it would've went with Hackett as HC and SS as DC.

probably much of the same. Our future Heisman hopeful QB Zach Allen, left TCU as a WR where he is now stuck behind a QB at Rutgers that completed only 3 passes vs OSU and hasnt had a road passing TD in more than a year.

 

[Czar]

Definitely give 2016 class to Babers, he basically reshuffled that whole class really quickly.

 

[GoSU96]

This thread is one huge cluster. There's more than enough blame to go around but who cares st this point. There has been a complete clean break. Two AD's post TGD a complete overhaul of the staff with a guy who has experience in implementing what he wants to do.

It youth, lack of explosive raw talent, a complete change in systems, playing into the hands of a couple of explosive opponents while sticking to the plan.

Next year this team will be a tough out and when two or threes games unexpectedly and year after next will be fighting for s top three finish in this division

 

[44cuse]

I mean yes and no. Obviously the end of the P era and the Robinson era plays a part in it, no doubt. And I don't want to re-hash a 15 year history as to why we are where we are we all know the story. Sure some if it goes back to Robinson and stuff but the shelf life on blaming GRob for everything in my opinion has sorta expired as we sit today. Our current situation sorta lays more at the feet of Doug/Scott eras in my opinion. There does come a point where we can't keep blaming GRob and the others who have come since have to take ownership/blame of the situation.

I'm sure many will disagree but that's how I see it.

The downturn started with P (though college football in general was also changing). GRob put it into hyperspeed. I'm not putting it all on GRob. I reserve a lot for P as well. But no point going there...stopped going there 3-4 years ago. Just saying this wasn't on Shafer. Not like he improved anything though.

44cuse

 

[Chip]

This thread is one huge cluster. There's more than enough blame to go around but who cares st this point. There has been a complete clean break. Two AD's post TGD a complete overhaul of the staff with a guy who has experience in implementing what he wants to do.

It youth, lack of explosive raw talent, a complete change in systems, playing into the hands of a couple of explosive opponents while sticking to the plan.

Next year this team will be a tough out and when two or threes games unexpectedly and year after next will be fighting for s top three finish in this division

With the exception of maybe 2 specific posters, every person on this board thinks we'll be better next year and beyond.

 

[44cuse]

Yes he is. The administration green lighted the Ensley project. Greg Robinson set the program back 2 years but he left Marrone Nassib,Lemon, Delone Carter, Pugh, the Jones brothers.
His stain was erased by the end of Marrone Era. We were no longer pathetic in the college football landscape.
We handed the keys after Marrone left to an unqualified guy who had no business being a P5 coach. People can like the guy and say how good a person he is. Facts are he was an awful HC and didn't recruit to an ACC level.
Our talent on defense for this guy who is a defensive guy is bad.

We are in trouble now because our last HC did a terrible job. Just because he was nice to local HS coaches and was a good man doesn't mean the program took a step back to the Greg Robinson era because of Scott Shafer's tenure.


That hiring after Marrone left is why Babers has an uphill battle that I have fiats he will turn around.

Wrong. The downfall started with P. Not Robinson. Not Marrone. Not Shafer.

44cuse

 

[Chip]

Wrong. The downfall started with P. Not Robinson. Not Marrone. Not Shafer.

44cuse

It started with the administration sitting on what they had and staying cheap, while the competitors invested and rose up around us.

I didn't always get that at the time, but eventually it became obvious.

 

[OttoMets]

Dumb.

It's the admin for not helping P get better facilities. It's P for not changing with the times. It's Robinson. Lots of Robinson. It's Marrone for not recruiting well and leaving at the wrong time. It's the admin for not supporting Dougie well. It's the admins fault for not widening the search and hiring Shafer. It's Shafer hiring bad O coordinators. It's Shafer's lack of improvement in recruiting. It's the admin for over scheduling OOC.

It's a lot of things. And it's fixable, but not in one off-season. Babers and Wildhack are turning the freighter around but it will take time.

'Don't blame Shafer for being such a bad coach, blame the school for hiring such a bad coach!'

Sorry, man, you lost me on this one.

Of course there're a lot of reasons we're in a hole, but Shafer's played a huge role after he and Marrone helped bring us back to the cusp of respectability (and it's not right to point fingers at the administration because he couldn't get it done).

 

[Alsacs]

Wrong. The downfall started with P. Not Robinson. Not Marrone. Not Shafer.
44cuse

Obviously the mid 1990s success is a long way ago and that downfall happened under P. However, our current situation has nothing to do with P.

Coach P was removed in 2004. We fell from being a top 25 program to medicore program. Greg Robinson's 4 years put us in the bottom of college football realm. However after Gerg was fired in 2008 by the end of Doug Marrone era we were in the middle of the CFB sphere. When Marrone left we were okay. Our talent may not have been ready for top 25 status but we were okay and we hired Scott Shafer. Hiring Shafer with the talent level was crazy.

Shafer was taking over a harder job conference wise than Marrone coached. This hire was beyond stupid. We didn't have a great recruiting class to protect and we paid for it. Our last 2 years were Greg Robinson season.
We rectified this mistake by hiring Dino Babers.

Babers is taking over like Marrone did in 2008 a program down in the dumps of college football and in a tougher conference in one of the 3 toughest divisions in college football.

The downfall is irrelevant. We are taking about why we are where we are right now. The main reason we are struggling right now is the last HC and the last 3 years. This current coach deserves our patience as he has a record to trust.

 

[TheCusian]

'Don't blame Shafer for being such a bad coach, blame the school for hiring such a bad coach!'

Sorry, man, you lost me on this one.

Of course there're a lot of reasons we're in a hole, but Shafer's played a huge role after he and Marrone helped bring us back to the cusp of respectability (and it's not right to point fingers at the administration because he couldn't get it done).

Anytime you interview one candidate and you have to fire that guy, you can blame the admin.

I liked it at the time, but it put us back.

 

[TheCusian]

The reason it goes back to P and the admin is that's when things started to slip and the perception took root.

 

[Alsacs]

The reason it goes back to P and the admin is that's when things started to slip and the perception took root.

This is BS.

In 2005 for Gerg's first game there was huge energy in the program. People were excited and we had a legit 45k in the Dome for that home opener. Dome was loud this game.

Gerg's 4 years did major damage that was fixed under Marrone. The problem was those 4 years drove bandwagon fans who have never come home. That along with the staff holding Marrone's extension away drove him away. Now I agreed with the admin here as Marrone should have done better in 2012 but the extension should have been signed sealed and delivered after the Louisville game. Marrone left and oh well. But the hiring of Shafer was beyond stupid. He wasn't getting a P5 job elsewhere and we gambled. We are now paying for that gamble.

The Shafer years are why the Dome is empty right now. People are fed up. We only have diehards left.

 

[44cuse]

It started with the administration sitting on what they had and staying cheap, while the competitors invested and rose up around us.

I didn't always get that at the time, but eventually it became obvious.

You've been around here long enough to know I was trying to stay away from that. Started with Buzz and Jake and went downhill ("Get a life"...ah, for some Regions and fans College Football is life and they apparently missed that changing aspect of the game).

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

Obviously the mid 1990s success is a long way ago and that downfall happened under P. However, our current situation has nothing to do with P.

Coach P was removed in 2004. We fell from being a top 25 program to medicore program. Greg Robinson's 4 years put us in the bottom of college football realm. However after Gerg was fired in 2008 by the end of Doug Marrone era we were in the middle of the CFB sphere. When Marrone left we were okay. Our talent may not have been ready for top 25 status but we were okay and we hired Scott Shafer. Hiring Shafer with the talent level was crazy.

Shafer was taking over a harder job conference wise than Marrone coached. This hire was beyond stupid. We didn't have a great recruiting class to protect and we paid for it. Our last 2 years were Greg Robinson season.
We rectified this mistake by hiring Dino Babers.

Babers is taking over like Marrone did in 2008 a program down in the dumps of college football and in a tougher conference in one of the 3 toughest divisions in college football.

The downfall is irrelevant. We are taking about why we are where we are right now. The main reason we are struggling right now is the last HC and the last 3 years. This current coach deserves our patience as he has a record to trust.

Whatever. You can believe whatever you want. It started then whether you want to admit it or not. Buzz and Jake and facilities and P. Tell yourself whatever you want.

44cuse

 

[Alsacs]

Whatever. You can believe whatever you want. It started then whether you want to admit it or not. Buzz and Jake and facilities and P. Tell yourself whatever you want.

44cuse

Buzz and Jake aren't responsible 12 years later. I mean you can think whatever you want but Dr. Gross got us into the ACC. We aren't in the Big East anymore our schedules are lot more difficult thus we need good coaching to compete.

Our facilities held us back in the Big East era. If we won games the Dome would be filled. The Dome isn't filled because we have sucked. We have lost bandwagon fans. That isn't because of Buzz, Jake, P.
We replaced all of them by 2004. Dr. Gross fixed the Athletic Department except football. That is because of coaching. Greg Robinson and Scott Shafer were failures. Each of them did major damage. The difference is Scott was well liked but both were not good CFB HCs.

This has nothing to do with the old regime. If we win games we can get better athletes.

 

[Chip]

You've been around here long enough to know I was trying to stay away from that. Started with Buzz and Jake and went downhill ("Get a life"...ah, for some Regions and fans College Football is life and they apparently missed that changing aspect of the game).

44cuse

It just kicked off the perfect storm. Literally everything went bad.

And as much as I seriously don't want to bring up old ghosts and grudges, Jake and P being company yes men did not help at all.