Lebron James is a coward

[Knicks411]

Yeah, that may never happen again, but..Oklahoma City is going to have to make a decision with Harden/Ibaka next year. Can they afford to keep Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka? I'm sure Harden will be looking at 5/60 and Ibaka will want similar.

Yeah, but even OKC I feel is going to be a little different because the timing isn't all at once, and the bird rights stuff. That being said, it will still be interesting to see how it shakes out with OKC.

Also, it seems like Miami did a pretty bad job surrounding them also. Look at the Knicks, they got Lin off waivers, Novak off waivers, jefferies for the vet minimum. Sure Lin was a complete stroke of luck, but he is a rotation player, Novak is a solid rotation guy, Jefferies can be also. Miami gave Miller 5 years and he's been hurt a lot, and spent a ton of money on Haslem, ditto him.

. The supporters of LeBron are essentially arguing "isn't being great enough, he gets triple doubles!!! Why can't you all just be happy with that." Everyone else is trying to find a reason to put him up on the Mt. Rushmore of basketball and they're not there yet.

Just wanted to reiterate I'm a Lebron backer but I agree with this.

 

[moqui]

I am not a Lebron hater, but would agree with this for a different reason.

When his supporters support him he is referred to as a great and/or elite player or all time great type of player. Based on what he can do with the basketball that may be deserved. But, in this sport that means comparisons to the likes of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant among others. No matter what else Jordan did, his teams won 6 NBA championships and he was obviously the alpha on those teams. Kobe won 5 NBA championships, and again, was a player who was the driving force behind those teams.

Who else is in that Pantheon of NBA greats? Russell (11 NBA Championships), Magic (5 Championships), Kareem (6 championships), Larry Bird (3 championships).

Guys like Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley or Patrick Ewing may or may not have had comparable levels of talent, but they were never able to take a team to a championship, much less multiple championships. Was this just good luck in terms of the teams and coaches who the winners ended up associated with and bad luck for the non-winners? Maybe. But, it also clearly separates them from the Best of the Best. Unlike those guys, Lebron was able to not only control where he went after Cleveland, but also pick his teammates.

He is the ARod of basketball. His statistics tell you that he is among the best that ever played, but his individual success doesn't always seem to lead to team success.

Until he wins multiple NBA championships, he will probably never be included among the greats without some people adding the caveat "but he didn't" or "but he couldn't"

On your "pantheon" question, when I think of the best players in the history of the NBA (not counting active players), my list is
Chamberlain, 1 title 2 titles
Jordan, 6 titles
Russell, 11 titles
Magic, 5 titles
Jabbar, 6 titles
Robertson, 1 title
Bird, 3 titles
West, 1 title
Erving, 1 title (3 if you count ABA)
Shaq, 4 titles
Olajuwon, 2 titles
Moses Malone, 1 title

I haven't put a ton of thought into it, but that is my first pass at a Top 12. When Duncan and Kobe retire, they will slide in the top ten, ahead of Robertson but probably outside the top 5. If Lebron keeps playing at this level for a few more seasons, he is in that list (which would now be a Top 15) even without a title, IMO.

The thing to take from this is that some of us don't put as much weight on multiple titles. I have Chamberlain #1 all time even though he has only one title two titles. I've got the Big O at #6 even though he didn't win anything until he was Jabbar's second banana at the end of his career. West is in there with just one, as is Moses and (arguably) Dr. J. Heck, I would even put guys with no titles, like Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor, ahead of guys with multiples like Isiah, Clyde, Pippen and David Robinson.

Championships are part of the equation, but they are far from the most determinative part, IMO.

 

[br801]

On your "pantheon" question, when I think of the best players in the history of the NBA (not counting active players), my list is
Chamberlain, 1 title
Jordan, 6 titles
Russell, 11 titles
Magic, 5 titles
Jabbar, 6 titles
Robertson, 1 title
Bird, 3 titles
West, 1 title
Erving, 1 title (3 if you count ABA)
Shaq, 4 titles
Olajuwon, 2 titles
Moses Malone, 1 title

I haven't put a ton of thought into it, but that is my first pass at a Top 12. When Duncan and Kobe retire, they will slide in the top ten, ahead of Robertson but probably outside the top 5. If Lebron keeps playing at this level for a few more seasons, he is in that list (which would now be a Top 15) even without a title, IMO.

The thing to take from this is that some of us don't put as much weight on multiple titles. I have Chamberlain #1 all time even though he has only one title. I've got the Big O at #6 even though he didn't win anything until he was Jabbar's second banana at the end of his career. West is in there with just one, as is Moses and (arguably) Dr. J. Heck, I would even put guys with no titles, like Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor, ahead of guys with multiples like Isiah, Clyde, Pippen and David Robinson.

Championships are part of the equation, but they are far from the most determinative part, IMO.

That's a great point about NBA championships, and the same holds true in baseball and football, at least in my mind.

Your list of 12 looks pretty good to me, but I don't think Robertson would be the first guy I'd bump. I could live without Malone. In fact, I'd replace him right now with Baylor. But that's just me.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I know advanced states aren't UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED but...

All time career PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
7. Chris Paul 25.44
8. Bob Pettit* 25.35
9. Tim Duncan 24.75
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
13. Magic Johnson* 24.11
14. Karl Malone* 23.90
15. Dirk Nowitzki 23.63
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Larry Bird* 23.50
18. Kobe Bryant 23.44
19. Kevin Garnett 23.32
20. Oscar Robertson* 23.17

Asterisk = HOFer

Obviously not the end all be all, especially in a sport where one guy can have an enormous effect on a team. Ttitles should have more weight in basketball than football or baseball.

 

[br801]

I know advanced states aren't UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED but...

All time career PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
7. Chris Paul 25.44
8. Bob Pettit* 25.35
9. Tim Duncan 24.75
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
13. Magic Johnson* 24.11
14. Karl Malone* 23.90
15. Dirk Nowitzki 23.63
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Larry Bird* 23.50
18. Kobe Bryant 23.44
19. Kevin Garnett 23.32
20. Oscar Robertson* 23.17

Asterisk = HOFer

Obviously not the end all be all, especially in a sport where one guy can have an enormous effect on a team. Ttitles should have more weight in basketball than football or baseball.

No Russell, West, Erving or Baylor... Robertson sneaking in at #20... Chris Paul at #7. Hell, that looks good to me.

 

[skurey]

Kobe was carried by Shaq to 3 titles then shot 6/24 in Game 7 and somehow was awarded the MVP for that series.

 

[Knicks411]

No Russell, West, Erving or Baylor... Robertson sneaking in at #20... Chris Paul at #7. Hell, that looks good to me.

I think PER has an issue with players from the older generations; turnovers and blocks are included in the formula, and those weren't tracked until the 70's. So I would throw any PER ratings out for those players.

Also, the game was different back in the 60's, shooting percentages were a LOT lower, which I would imagine is going to serve to deflate the PER's. Elgin Baylor, for instance, was a career 43% shooter.

 

[moqui]

I think PER has an issue with players from the older generations; turnovers and blocks are included in the formula, and those weren't tracked until the 70's. So I would throw any PER ratings out for those players.

then how do you explain 50's star Neil Johnston at #10? They must have developed a modified formula for the oldtimers, and he jumps up because he shot at a high percentage and grabbed a lot of boards.

 

[br801]

I think PER has an issue with players from the older generations; turnovers and blocks are included in the formula, and those weren't tracked until the 70's. So I would throw any PER ratings out for those players.

Also, the game was different back in the 60's, shooting percentages were a LOT lower, which I would imagine is going to serve to deflate the PER's. Elgin Baylor, for instance, was a career 43% shooter.

Shooting percentages actually were quite high by the late 60s and early 70s (off the top of my head, comparable to today I'd say), but prior to that, you're correct. The guys who played the bulk of their career earlier than that (like Baylor) did have relatively low shooting percentages. It was a different game then, with many more possessions and shots taken, and many more opportunities for rebounds. And prior to the introduction of the shot clock, it was a different game still, with significantly fewer possessions and less scoring. So using a metric like PER to compare players who were active across these vastly different eras is essentially meaningless, IMO.

 

[CorduroyG]

Lebron is in a catch-22 with all the haters. All he can do is win championships, and even that won't be enough for the majority of people.

If he passes in the waning seconds, or plays passively, he's pilloried
If he takes the shot and misses, he's not clutch.
If he puts up video game numbers, it goes unmentioned
If his team wins, it doesn't move the needle b/c the Heat, as constructed, are supposed to.

FTLOG, will the haters just state what it will take for them to ? Maybe it will take a while (several years) for the requirements to be met. Maybe they can't/won't be achieved. But at least we'll see some light at the end of the tunnel.

the haters will when the non-haters stop making excuses for him. its already starting now with bosh out, they have no depth beyond lebron and wade lol when he joined wade, that was the end of the excuses. win a ring, period. i dont wanna hear about supporting casts and triple doubles and making the right basketball play by passing to an open teammate with the game on the line and blah blah blah. AND WIN A TITLE

 

[CorduroyG]

Kobe was carried by Shaq to 3 titles then shot 6/24 in Game 7 and somehow was awarded the MVP for that series.

uhhhhh no.

and who would you have given the finals mvp? pau gasol? the same pau gasol who won zero playoff games before playing with kobe?

 

[Knicks411]

Shooting percentages actually were quite high by the late 60s and early 70s (off the top of my head, comparable to today I'd say), but prior to that, you're correct. The guys who played the bulk of their career earlier than that (like Baylor) did have relatively low shooting percentages. It was a different game then, with many more possessions and shots taken, and many more opportunities for rebounds. And prior to the introduction of the shot clock, it was a different game still, with significantly fewer possessions and less scoring. So using a metric like PER to compare players who were active across these vastly different eras is essentially meaningless, IMO.

Yeah, it was getting closer by the late 60's. Last year the league shot 45.9%, I randomly picked 1969, league shot 44.1%. (But remember, there was obviously no 3 point line back then, so the true shooting percentage gap is still pretty big. League average now is around 54% or so, so that was still like 10 percentage points. (In 1960, the league shot 41%. Yikes)

then how do you explain 50's star Neil Johnston at #10? They must have developed a modified formula for the oldtimers, and he jumps up because he shot at a high percentage and grabbed a lot of boards.

Yeah, not sure on him, though I bet the fact that he retired so early helped him out so he didn't have his 30's bringing down his averages. I would also assume guards may be hurt more, because guards are more likely to shoot 3 pointers, which will help your true shooting and efficiency, but since there was no 3 point line...

West finished with a career 55% true shooting, but if there was a 3 point line he is probably adding 3 or 4 points to that. (Totally making that up, but seems reasonable).

 

[Knicks411]

uhhhhh no.

and who would you have given the finals mvp? pau gasol? the same pau gasol who won zero playoff games before playing with kobe?

Not sure why how many playoff games you won in other seasons should determine who wins the finals MVP in any given year. Gasol averaged 19-12 on 48% shooting, Kobe was at 29-8 (he had a monster effort on the glass in Game 7 if I remember) on 41% shooting. I think Kobe was a totally reasonable selection as finals MVP.

 

[CorduroyG]

That's a great point about NBA championships, and the same holds true in baseball and football, at least in my mind.

Your list of 12 looks pretty good to me, but I don't think Robertson would be the first guy I'd bump. I could live without Malone. In fact, I'd replace him right now with Baylor. But that's just me.

not winning a championship in basketball is more of a knock for a star player than not winning one in football or baseball. football and baseball have so many more variables than basketball. you can be the greatest qb ever, but if you dont have a decent running game or a good offensive line or a solid defense you aint winning stuff, just ask dan marino. you can be 1 of the greatest hitters in baseball but if your pitching sux you aint winning stuff. basketball is a little different, an individual star player has more of an impact on a game and can do alot more with less than a star football or baseball player.

 

[skurey]

uhhhhh no.

and who would you have given the finals mvp? pau gasol? the same pau gasol who won zero playoff games before playing with kobe?

who won the MVPs in the Finals with Shaq and Kobe?

 

[djcon57]

If Lebron keeps playing at this level for a few more seasons, he is in that list (which would now be a Top 15) even without a title, IMO.

Who is he better than on that list if he has 0 titles?

 

[moqui]

and who would you have given the finals mvp?

Kendrick Perkins' knee

Who is he better than on that list if he has 0 titles?

if he keeps playing at the current level for another 5 years or so, then around half of them. remember, I've got the Big O at number 6, even though his only title came at the end of the year when he was clearly playing 2nd fiddle.

 

[CorduroyG]

Kendrick Perkins' knee

if he keeps playing at the current level for another 5 years or so, then around half of them. remember, I've got the Big O at number 6, even though his only title came at the end of the year when he was clearly playing 2nd fiddle.

if lebron doesnt win a title thats all anyone will remember and care about. he wont be known as 1 of the greatest players ever, he'll be known as "the greatest player ever who never won a championship" in basketball, more than any other team sport, your greatness is defined by your rings. how could you even mention lebron in the same breath as jordan if he gets zero rings? you cant. why do you think kobe is so obsessed with getting his 6th ring?

 

[44cuse]

Well since i am mostly a Knick fan that lives in south Florida and has tickets to the Heat...I gotta tell you that Mr. James is Not a Coward! I was at the game and if not for Mr. James, leading scorer, leading rebounder, best defender on court the and leading with Wade to bring the Heat back in the 4th qtr, this would have been a blow out by Indiana. Sure James missed two FTs...heck Wade missed a wide open lay-up and lets not forget the many missed FTs on Indiana's team in 4th qtr.
Some of you may not like L James...some of us may like him; but the fact remains he is one of the BEST bball players in the game. Three out of four MVPs sort of support that feeling.
For the fans in Miami, James is the best and he does it without an attitude...he gives on lthe court and he is human. Guess the thing is I find the statement he is a coward to be down right silly! Obviously everyone has there opinion and we respect that; but I bet the NY Knicks would love to have him on their team instead of Amare.

Stop making sense. You're not wanted here.

44cuse

 

[Knicks411]

if lebron doesnt win a title thats all anyone will remember and care about. he wont be known as 1 of the greatest players ever, he'll be known as "the greatest player ever who never won a championship" in basketball, more than any other team sport, your greatness is defined by your rings. how could you even mention lebron in the same breath as jordan if he gets zero rings? you cant. why do you think kobe is so obsessed with getting his 6th ring?

Yes, but I also can't fathom that if he plays at this level for another 5 years he doesn't win a title.

But if he doesn't win a title, I can't imagine putting him in my top 5 or anything. Maybe at the back end of the top 10 or something; maybe. Probably not.

 

[alphaorange]

James is the most talented player in the game today. It just happens that finishing a game is not his strength. He doesn't choke, IMO, it's just that most guys that seal the deal at the end of a game have a top notch one on one scoring game, such as Melo. James is more of a player that makes everyone else better. Wade is not that guy either as he is too inconsistent of a shooter. Pair James with a ISO guy that can score and you win a lot of titles.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Kobe Bryant is a coward...and a decoy. Steve Blake took the last shot...

 

[longislandcuse]

Kobe Bryant is a coward...and a decoy. Steve Blake took the last shot...

Nope, knew some Lebron apologist would say this today...Kobe flipped out when he didnt get the ball. LBJ would have breathed a sigh of relief. Notice what Durant did at the end of the game?

 

[Knicks411]

Nope, knew some Lebron apologist would say this today...Kobe flipped out when he didnt get the ball. LBJ would have breathed a sigh of relief. Notice what Durant did at the end of the game?

Forgot to DVR the game, so I didn't see this. What happened? He never even got the ball in his hands?

Man, JA Adande kinda ripped Kobe on ESPN.

Oh, and speaking of résumés, Kobe is lucky his has so much padding. It will cushion the fall he took in this game, and is the only thing keeping him from the end-to-end roasting that would have awaited LeBron James should he have failed this much in the clutch. After negotiating his way to 20 points despite a paucity of good looks (in addition to handing out all four Lakers assists through the first 27 minutes), Bryant missed all four of his shots in the final 5:31, had a turnover that led directly to a Durant dunk and had another tipped pass go off his arm and out of bounds.
Kobe's past performances prohibit us from saying he never comes through in the clutch. But his recent history tells us it's been four years since he hit a game-winning shot in the playoffs, and the ledger is starting to pile up on the negative side. This is not about discussing the totality of his career. Not when there is the immediate task of competing for the 2012 championship at hand.

It is pretty amazing he was the only Laker with an assist in the first half of the game/

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Nope, knew some Lebron apologist would say this today...Kobe flipped out when he didnt get the ball. LBJ would have breathed a sigh of relief. Notice what Durant did at the end of the game?

T'was a joke.