Lydon and Malachi on Boeheim’s Army a bad sign?

[CardiacCuse]

Tyler Lydon career earnings (so far) - $3.5 MILLION DOLLARS.
Mali Richardson career earnings (so far) - $4.5 MILLION DOLLARS.

They are both 24 years old.

I would love to have "flamed out" like that by age 24.

Neither has any student loan debt, and they can go back and finish their degree at Syracuse for FREE whenever they want (see: John Gillon's recent Masters degree).

they only see a fraction of those figures...a lot less than you'd think, actually.

 

[Brooky03]

no chance? that's not really accurate.

Ok, I was a little hyperbolic but the chance was very, very low.

I’m not saying he wasn’t or isn’t supremely talented, btw. He is and has proven that. But he was not going to get the opportunity or be used in a way in our offense that could have vaulted him into the lottery.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

We went to a FF with no NBA players and on the way there beat 2 teams with a VERY good pro (Sabonis, Brogdon)

Can't be coaching, according to many. Must be luck.

 

[Brooky03]

they only see a fraction of those figures...a lot less than you'd think, actually.

Being very conservative, that’s still about a million dollars, cash in hand, not owed to anybody, for each of them. The typical college grad would need to work 25+ years to match that take home pay. And agents usually don’t get a cut of rookie contracts because they don’t add any value.

It’s not all sitting in the bank; they have living expenses, but the point is that’s a lot of discretionary income for a 24 year old. Enough to live very comfortably for a while, while you figure out your next moves.

 

[Scott11]

Yes and no. Of course a player will be more "physically ready" as 23 year old senior vs. when they were a freshman, but don't you get more physically ready when basketball is your profession? Access to world class trainers, facilities, dietitians, etc. There are literally Olympic athletes in the NBA vs. only allowed so many hours/practices in college. I don't think Malachi has an NBA body now, 4 years later, so I doubt he'd have one by the end of his hypothetical sophomore season.

I mentioned this before but it's worth repeating - staying in school is 2-sided risk. Every year you stay in college and show your physical growth and basketball development, is one year that NBA scouts don't have to guess and project. Both your upside and downside change - your range (ceiling/floor) converges.

Players improve their draft status to the extent they "exceed" expectations for development. If Malachi was a projected late 1st round pick as a freshman, but returned as a sophomore and was expected to score 18 ppg, and he did that, why would a team draft him higher? If he went crazy and scored 23 ppg in the ACC, he'd be picked higher. If he scored 13 ppg like he did as a freshman, he'd drop, likely into the second round a.k.a. NBA purgatory.

I agree with the majority of what you are saying. The point I think that I made that you are not getting is that yes of course they can improve their strength in the NBA however if you don’t have a certain level when you initially get there you can’t really compete and as a result it significantly decreases your chances of sticking around for a second contract. Ennis is the perfect example of this. He simply did not have the strength to compete in the NBA one year out of high school. If he had gotten a little bit stronger which would allowed him to play to his strengths in the NBA, i.e. going to the basket, being strong with the ball and distributing, he might have had a better chance of making huge money and staying in the league.

 

[Scott11]

There is no chance Grant would have been a lotto pick if he came back.

No chance? Go look at the draft the year following his departure and tell me if there are 14 better players than grant.

 

[Scott11]

But where we are getting off track on this thread is that for years Syracuse has been able to tell recruits that we get guys drafted in the first round. That message will not mean as much if the majority of those players don’t stick and succeed in the NBA.

 

[Bayside44]

The practice thing in the NBA seems overrated. There's enough out there now in public read, half the time on the road, unstructured. The well - chronicled John Beilein disaster at Cleveland showed that it's mostly game walk-through stuff.

 

[CardiacCuse]

I was wondering if anybody else was bummed out to see that Tyler and Malachi are planning on being on Boeheim’s Army? To me it seems that if those guys are willing to play in the tournament it is likely that their NBA prospects are slim and none. Which brings me back to when they left early. I know that a lot of people feel that everyone who goes in the first round made the right decision to leave. But when Lydon and Malachi left it was pretty evident that they had a lot of room for improvement. I’ve made this argument about Tyler Ennis as well. I know that a guaranteed three years as a first round pick is more than most people will make but I still feel that the life-changing money is in the second contract and that guys who get picked in mid to late first round are low hanging fruit to get cut after their first or second year. When guys are not physically ready go to the league they set themselves up to fail.

It is totally different than Tyus or Elijah Hughes. Those guys had accomplished all they could in college and needed to go. They were men in men’s bodies and likely as skilled as they can be as far as college development. Conversely Lydon needed to continue to develop his body, his shot in his low post game. Malachi needed to develop his game off the bounce as well as his d. Ennis had the body of a teenager, not grown ass man

I recognize that the NBA in large part drafts on potential. But in order to stay in the league you have to have a certain amount of strength, athleticism and skill. And when guys like Tyler and Malachi and other flame out so quickly it doesn’t help our program because during recruiting other programs will point to professional flame outs from Syracuse.

I totally get what you're saying...there's a certain calculus to the decision that isn't usually factored in these days, imo.

what used to be the decision was: are you READY for the NBA...like RIGHT NOW? and in my opinion that lead to a higher percentage of players "sticking" in the NBA...

Now there's a lot of money involved for just being a fringe player who probably will never get a 2nd contract. Now its just: can you get drafted? the NBA doesn't care what happens to the lydons and malachis...and it didn't before...but now the players are more emboldened...the bar for: am I ready? is so much lower than it used to be and in my opinion lower than it should be (if sticking in the NBA is the goal)

i think part of it is that there's a real negative undercurrent now to being an NCAA player and playing "for free" and being "exploited"...

There's definitely a lot of cases where going to the NBA or pro is the best choice...even for those that don't have high chances of sticking in the NBA...

It does seem that players don't improve over the course of NCAA careers as much as they used to...the prospect of going back to improve draft stock can certainly backfire...

It really depends on what the player wants...if getting that 3.5 mil...cough cough 6 figures...is really all that you want as a player and you would genuinely be happy with that a "cup of coffee"...there's NOTHING wrong with that...but if becoming a legit long-lasting NBA player is the goal...then the decision making process should be a bit different than jump at the first whiff...it doesn't mean staying longer will actually make THAT happen...sometimes it won't...

but if you are a player like Oshae Brissett for example...you have the legit chance to come back as a junior and dominate...work on your weaknesses and jump up draft boards...its not easy...it's HARD to fix weaknesses...but the best pros do it...the ones who stick in the NBA do it...

I'm not saying there is one formula or one solution...i think there's a bit more nuance to the decision these days than is taken into account, though...right now if there's a small chance...he gone!!!!!

I kinda wish the NBA would stop weighting "potential" so highly in its drafting of players...

 

[Brooky03]

No chance? Go look at the draft the year following his departure and tell me if there are 14 better players than grant.

Doesn’t matter how good or bad they’ve been in the NBA. For that matter, it doesn’t matter how talented they were/are. Perception matters. To get from where he was to the lotto, he’d have to significantly outperform his last season and expand his game. A few more points per game, maybe an extra rebound or two, and 5 more percentage points added to his shooting wouldn’t have done the trick.

I don’t think he was in a position where he was going to see a large increase in utilization or production at Cuse.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I don’t know what that means, unless you are opposed to facts and reality.. I do know Dion is making twice as much this year as those 2 made in their careers.

It means don't be that guy that talks about how athletes pay taxes, generational money, or not having to work anymore.

they only see a fraction of those figures...a lot less than you'd think, actually.

Hey, don't be that guy.

 

[IthacaMatt]

As I mentioned in the TBT 2020 thread, I don't know how to feel about them being in the tournament this soon. They (and their camps) have to live with the decisions that were made, not me.

You know something? ESPN has turned this into visibility. This is another path to invitations to summer camp teams or training camp teams.

 

[CardiacCuse]

It means don't be that guy that talks about how athletes pay taxes, generational money, or not having to work anymore.

Hey, don't be that guy.

The Highest-Paid NBA Players Actually Make a Whole Lot Less Than You Think They Do

They're still rich, though.

www.complex.com

Idk what you're getting...am I supposed to know???

The crazy thing about the top NBA players to me is that only a small % of their actual take-home income comes from NBA salary...but they make all of their decisions on being a "max player" and squeezing as much juice out of their NBA contract when it is in reality the side-hustle for a lot of these guys like LeBron and Steph...

but back to the Lydon's and Malachi's...they actually get to keep a lot less than whatever they are advertised as getting...3.5 mil over several seasons is still amazing, of course...but if you broke it down to less than half...say 1.5 m over 3 years...thats 500k/year for a 3 year career...still awesome...but would have to be careful managing that to last a lifetime, imo...I personally could retire on that much...but not everyone could.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The Highest-Paid NBA Players Actually Make a Whole Lot Less Than You Think They Do

They're still rich, though.

www.complex.com

Idk what you're getting...am I supposed to know???

The crazy thing about the top NBA players to me is that only a small % of their actual take-home income comes from NBA salary...but they make all of their decisions on being a "max player" and squeezing as much juice out of their NBA contract when it is in reality the side-hustle for a lot of these guys like LeBron and Steph...

but back to the Lydon's and Malachi's...they actually get to keep a lot less than whatever they are advertised as getting...3.5 mil over several seasons is still amazing, of course...but if you broke it down to less than half...say 1.5 m over 3 years...thats 500k/year for a 3 year career...still awesome...but would have to be careful managing that to last a lifetime, imo...I personally could retire on that much...but not everyone could.

I'm just getting at nobody finds the person that reminds everyone that when you win the lottery you don't actually get the whole amount of the prize to be making a comment that's all that insightful.

I do think you make a good point that for the highest paid players, they often have endorsement opportunities that make up a substantially larger part of their income. But that's the case for a small number of athletes.

It's kind of like the shoe deal thing. Everybody has a shoe deal. Now, some of them don't pay much, or just might mean free shoes, or maybe they get Nike credit or something. But they all have some kind of shoe deal, even if it's not great. A select few players get really awesome shoe deals.

 

[721Comstock]

The Highest-Paid NBA Players Actually Make a Whole Lot Less Than You Think They Do

They're still rich, though.

www.complex.com

Idk what you're getting...am I supposed to know???

The crazy thing about the top NBA players to me is that only a small % of their actual take-home income comes from NBA salary...but they make all of their decisions on being a "max player" and squeezing as much juice out of their NBA contract when it is in reality the side-hustle for a lot of these guys like LeBron and Steph...

but back to the Lydon's and Malachi's...they actually get to keep a lot less than whatever they are advertised as getting...3.5 mil over several seasons is still amazing, of course...but if you broke it down to less than half...say 1.5 m over 3 years...thats 500k/year for a 3 year career...still awesome...but would have to be careful managing that to last a lifetime, imo...I personally could retire on that much...but not everyone could.

WHO SAYS they have to “be able to retire on that”???

They are TWENTY. FOUR. YEARS. OLD.

That’s a total bullshit metric for “success”.

also - EVERYBODY “takes home less than they earn”.

(well - except for Trump. )

 

[jgeorge322]

Ok, I was a little hyperbolic but the chance was very, very low.

I’m not saying he wasn’t or isn’t supremely talented, btw. He is and has proven that. But he was not going to get the opportunity or be used in a way in our offense that could have vaulted him into the lottery.

You never know, i think he wouldve become dominant in his junior year

 

[CardiacCuse]

WHO SAYS they have to “be able to retire on that”???

They are TWENTY. FOUR. YEARS. OLD.

That’s a total bullshit metric for “success”.

also - EVERYBODY “takes home less than they earn”.

(well - except for Trump. )

1. "everybody" doesn't have lawyers and agents etc that take a huge cut from what they get...

2. and these guys are leaving school early and many don't finish...so they are saying that they are good for their future...

I'm not saying what they need to do...or that they are not doing way better than almost everyone else at their age...

but its a marathon not a sprint. how many former "stars" would likely do things differently as 40 or 50 year olds???

its about MAXIMIZING the opportunity...not saying they are doing poorly or criticizing ...just saying the players have the right to decide what is best for them but I'm betting a lot would do things differently given the chance to use hindsight...

even tyus battles dad apparently just told JB he maybe shoulda stayed...

i think you are getting it a bit twisted: I'm just saying there's more nuance in the decision-making process that might appear on the surface and that these decisions are not able to made with all the info...not that players need to be criticized for whatever decision that they do make...

BUT if they ONLY see money ...second round money and have a slim chance of sticking in the NBA...and it doesn't work out...well...its still all good...but it mighta been better...even for a first rounder who isnt truly ready its a hard call, imo...

it is a personal decision but we can observe that decision and judge it without it being a personal attack against the decision makers involved, imo.

 

[two3zone]

We went to a FF with no NBA players and on the way there beat 2 teams with a VERY good pro (Sabonis, Brogdon)

There are 3 players on our team that went to the NBA.

 

[Niastri]

Again I understand that is a lot more money than most people make. But after taxes it is hardly generational money or not have to work again money. Contrast that to the $$ that Dion waiters and Jeremy Grant earned on their second contracts. And Jerami may have given away millions of dollars by going in the second round instead of waiting a year when he would’ve clearly been a lottery pick.

Let's argue the bolded point. I live in Fayetteville, east of Syracuse... It is considered together as part of Fayetteville-Manlius demographically. It is one of the wealthier suburbs of Syracuse. The median household income is $80k.

Let's assume Lyden made $3.5M and paid taxes, agent fees and thus saved 30% of that money (because he's a kid and just knew he was getting a second contract). That leaves him with about $1M of cash. Not generational money, true but he could easily live on $50k (a modest/sustainable 5% draw rate) happily for the rest of his life.

Now, just to make a second point: I also am a financial planner with several hundred clients... Only about 2% of them have accumulated $1M in their working careers. Most of my clients will be just fine without anywhere near Lydon's million

The money in sports is so big is easy to get blase about 3.5 million, but that is real money earned. And it doesn't count his other earning opportunities, basketball or otherwise. Richardson with his extra million of salary is just that much better off.

I was once in the "stay in school"crowd, but the money has outgrown the value of college if you can get drafted. Plus, it isn't like he forfeited his degree.

 

[Bayside44]

Let's argue the bolded point. I live in Fayetteville, east of Syracuse... It is considered together as part of Fayetteville-Manlius demographically. It is one of the wealthier suburbs of Syracuse. The median household income is $80k.

Let's assume Lyden made $3.5M and paid taxes, agent fees and thus saved 30% of that money (because he's a kid and just knew he was getting a second contract). That leaves him with about $1M of cash. Not generational money, true but he could easily live on $50k (a modest/sustainable 5% draw rate) happily for the rest of his life.

Now, just to make a second point: I also am a financial planner with several hundred clients... Only about 2% of them have accumulated $1M in their working careers. Most of my clients will be just fine without anywhere near Lydon's million

The money in sports is so big is easy to get blase about 3.5 million, but that is real money earned. And it doesn't count his other earning opportunities, basketball or otherwise. Richardson with his extra million of salary is just that much better off.

I was once in the "stay in school"crowd, but the money has outgrown the value of college if you can get drafted. Plus, it isn't like he forfeited his degree.

Easily live in 50K? Does he want a family or own a home?

I will agree its a nice running start assuming he has another career lined up.

 

[Niastri]

Easily live in 50K? Does he want a family or own a home?

I will agree its a nice running start assuming he has another career lined up.

Well, if you buy a 200k house in the town of Fayetteville, your annual taxes are about $6000 and your mortgage will be about $12,000, your very nice car is going to be another $10,000 a year... How much money do you really need for everything else? Sure, he's not going to live like Michael Jackson, but comfortable? Yes.

Not bad for a kid whose peer group is lucky to be finding a starting professional career where they work 70 hours a week just so their boss doesn't can then.

 

[kirbivore]

I agree with the majority of what you are saying. The point I think that I made that you are not getting is that yes of course they can improve their strength in the NBA however if you don’t have a certain level when you initially get there you can’t really compete and as a result it significantly decreases your chances of sticking around for a second contract. Ennis is the perfect example of this. He simply did not have the strength to compete in the NBA one year out of high school. If he had gotten a little bit stronger which would allowed him to play to his strengths in the NBA, i.e. going to the basket, being strong with the ball and distributing, he might have had a better chance of making huge money and staying in the league.

Disagree on Ennis. He'd have ended up like Chris Thomas from Notre Dame. Tyler got out at the perfect time.

 

[Bayside44]

Well, if you buy a 200k house in the town of Fayetteville, your annual taxes are about $6000 and your mortgage will be about $12,000, your very nice car is going to be another $10,000 a year... How much money do you really need for everything else? Sure, he's not going to live like Michael Jackson, but comfortable? Yes.

Not bad for a kid whose peer group is lucky to be finding a starting professional career where they work 70 hours a week just so their boss doesn't can then.

I guess, that's still pretty close to the bone. Spouses and kids are expensive, things break, and guys who go to the league (esp after two years in college) probably don't have those types of budgets in mind.

But, if he's a guy like a Craig Forth who has a career lined up (or Tyus Battle with an IT degree) it's definitely leg up money and worth the challenge.

If hoops is what it's going to be it still seems players have to get in a position to get the second contract. The league just churns through guys and the anti-tanking stuff takes away the notion of guys getting paid for a few years to both stink and hopefully get better.

 

[djcon57]

Talking about others people money is the height of cringe.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Lydon is a country kid. Loves the outdoors and cabin life. He will be fine.

Love people in here who don’t think even 1 million dollars by age 24 is a lot of money.

Read that again. I don’t care how he got it or what he earns when he’s 25. 1 million dollars, age 24.