Marinatto out as BE commish

[TexanMark]

One thing is for sure in my mind: the SunBeast will survive. TV needs inventory and someone will offer them obscene money to put their teams on. The ACC's fate rests with getting a revised contract within a few million of the Big 12.

 

[Townie72]

75-25%...the split and that quote says a lot to me on how some felt the football schools didn't bring enough to the table. Townie, do you honestly believe that given the different agendas that there was any way this could have succeeded? PSU is a good example and that was the one that hurt the big east right from the beginning, the worry of a football/basketball split and who had the power. From reading a lot of your posts I'm sure you're more in tune with this than I am so I'll defer to you regarding the facts but to deny that the big east schools had different agendas from what I've read is wrong in my opinion.

So your answer is "Different agendas"? But as to what that agenda might have been no one has a clue? Sounds pretty empty to me.

Seriously, Bob, with no disrespect --- I think this is a red herring. The football schools on their own would have been worse off. There was no alternative agenda that was implementable.

I can imagine that if you weren't around in the 1980's and paying a lot of attention to this that not joining PSU in the "sort of" All Sports Conference that Penn State wanted seems like a huge tactical mistake. But at the time that was a deal that almost everyone would have passed on. It stunk to high heaven.

First of all it would have required the scrapping of the Big East basketball conference that was just taking off. And by "taking off", I mean it was exploding. And nobody had even guessed just how successful it would be. Until that time SU basketball had a hard time getting a regional game on TV. It was small time --- a sports non-entity. Our rivals --- if you can call them that --- were St Bona and Niagara and Canisius.

Suddenly SU was playing on a national stage. I got off an airplane in LA in the early 1980's and saw a kid with an SU basketball shirt on. I had never seen any SU gear previously any further away from Syracuse than Binghamton.

Secondly, the deal Paterno and Penn State were offering was highly weighted in their favor. All the basketball revenue --- of which PSU had almost none --- was to be shared. Penn State was going to keep all their football money. It was a "We'll share your half but not my half" arrangement. Paterno was at the time a ruthless SOB.

That conference would have been like the USSR with Penn State playing the role of Russia and SU and the others playing Estonia and Lithuania.

So the wizards on here that say that there was some sort of strategic failing on the Big East not to take the PSU deal just weren't there at the time.

 

[Townie72]

I know you were talking about more recent events, but this does fit your criteria. Didn't the basketball schools torpedo the addition of Penn St. shortly after the league was formed? I know at that point everyone was a basketball school, but until Pitt was added, only SU and BC were D1 football schools. As I recall, PSU received 5 of 8 votes to join, but needed 6. That tells me all 3 FB schools voted for PSU (I assume), and the 5 BB-onlies didn't. Not sure it makes much difference though, I believe PSU would have bolted for the B1G anyway.

You got it almost right. But PSU wan't bringing along their football program. That was a free standing thing and they weren't about to share that with anybody. So the teams that voted for PSU were voting on the desirability of PSU basketball.

Absolutely no one had a clue that PSU would turn around and join the Big 10 and thereby destroy Eastern Independent Football.

Denying PSU basketball to the Big East was a no-brainer. It brought nothing and was way outside the success formula put together by the TV people and Dave Gavitt. It certainly wasn't in an urban area and brought no significant TV market along with it. We already had Philadelphia covered.

 

[Noexcuse]

One thing is for sure in my mind: the SunBeast will survive. TV needs inventory and someone will offer them obscene money to put their teams on. The ACC's fate rests with getting a revised contract within a few million of the Big 12.

I don't know. Obviously they will get some sort of contract because the basketball league still has a fair amount of cache, but obscene money seems a little overstated. There are plenty of teams out there in the major conferences to schedule around as far as football goes. Broadcasts last 3 hours or so, so there are only so many slots to actually show games. Maybe the possibility of piggy backing on top of ND with NBC works for the Big East, but it's still a gamble given the fact that there are not a lot of compelling football match ups within the league, at least as it appears to be configured.

 

[SmilinBob]

I'm a little nervous to debate something with a guy who has Swearingine as his picture and don't want to be fed to the pigs but don't you think it's possible the basketball schools really didn't want to have the football schools have too much power? I'm an old guy and I remember what it was like recruiting vs the Bonnies and the like and to have it move to a whole other level, I respect that. And yes, it's quite probable that PSU would have been the Texas of the big east.

Schools are looking for money and stability and the hodge podge that is/was the Big East could not address that. Why do think that was?

 

[bubba1917]

One thing is for sure in my mind: the SunBeast will survive. TV needs inventory and someone will offer them obscene money to put their teams on. The ACC's fate rests with getting a revised contract within a few million of the Big 12.

The current market for sports inventory has all the feel of a bubble. We will only know for sure when it bursts.

 

[Scooch]

One thing is for sure in my mind: the SunBeast will survive. TV needs inventory and someone will offer them obscene money to put their teams on. The ACC's fate rests with getting a revised contract within a few million of the Big 12.

Yep. I mean the Ivy League just expanded their deal with NBCSN today. The appetite for sports content is insatiable.

Maybe that's what the BE should do. Hoops schools split off and maintain an FCS football league. Rutgers can stay.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

One thing is for sure in my mind: the SunBeast will survive. TV needs inventory and someone will offer them obscene money to put their teams on. The ACC's fate rests with getting a revised contract within a few million of the Big 12.

Not everyone is so sure the SunBeast will survive. Mark Blaudshun has an interesting piece in this morning's Boston Globe. He sees chances of a split between the hoops onlies and football schools growing. Also notes that Notre Dame would not go with the hoops onlies. A few more interesting nuggets as well...

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleg...mp=localsearch:on:twit:colleges-wire&dlvrit=7

 

[All4SU]

Which is more support of Marinatto's idiocy. He should have fought that appointment tooth and nail.

Exactly.

 

[Scooch]

The current market for sports inventory has all the feel of a bubble. We will only know for sure when it bursts.

If it's a bubble then it's been inflating unabated for 30 years.

Sports is the only DVR-proof content left on TV. It's value is entirely logical.

 

[SmilinBob]

Could the big east survive and possibly flourish losing the football schools and go back to their original roots? Louisville, UConn, Rutgers, Cincy, USF and Temple leaving? If there is no BCS then what good is the Big East for schools to join so why not leave and start something while adding UCF, Memphis and East Carolina and possibly the military schools or is it the hoops part is just too good to actually leave?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

As far as I can tell the basketball schools and the conference acceded to every demand the football schools --- led by SU --- made. The conference added football school after football school. Nobody blocked anything.

Why were Marquette and Depaul added in 2003?

Why couldn't the BE just add Cinci and Louisville to replace Miami and Va Tech without taking on the extra baggage?

Why didn't the BE add 4 FB schools?

The BB schools wouldn't approve the addition of Cinci and Louisville unless Marquette and Depaul were part of the package. Years later, when the FB side wants more expansion, the BB side cries that there are already too many BB teams and offers up Villanova as a solution.

Ironically, the New BE now has 18 teams anyways. Instead of SU, Pitt, and WV, it has basketball powerhouses like Houston, SMU, and UCF.

Oops.

 

[Townie72]

One thing is for sure in my mind: the SunBeast will survive. TV needs inventory and someone will offer them obscene money to put their teams on. The ACC's fate rests with getting a revised contract within a few million of the Big 12.

More inventory is needed?

On a Saturday here in DC the channels are crammed with football games. Ivy League. Patriot League. A-10, MEAC games. Division III games. ACC, SEC, Big East, Big 10, Pac 10, Pacific coast league games. There must be 20 games on ... maybe 30 on a Saturrday. I can surf through and watch continuous action from noon to 3:00AM on Sunday.

And we need more? There's not enough inventory?

 

[Townie72]

Why were Marquette and Depaul added in 2003?

Why couldn't the BE just add Cinci and Louisville to replace Miami and Va Tech without taking on the extra baggage?

Why didn't the BE add 4 FB schools?

The BB schools wouldn't approve the addition of Cinci and Louisville unless Marquette and Depaul were part of the package. Years later, when the FB side wants more expansion, the BB side cries that there are already too many BB teams and offers up Villanova as a solution.

Ironically, the New BE now has 18 teams anyways. Instead of SU, Pitt, and WV, it has basketball powerhouses like Houston, SMU, and UCF.

Oops.

So the football schools were somehow injured by having to play basketball in the oft-characterized "greatest basketball conference ever".

And what more football school would they have wanted to add? Houston, SMU and UCF? And you think SU would have stood by and just let that happen?

 

[TexanMark]

More inventory is needed?

On a Saturday here in DC the channels are crammed with football games. Ivy League. Patriot League. A-10, MEAC games. Division III games. ACC, SEC, Big East, Big 10, Pac 10, Pacific coast league games. There must be 20 games on ... maybe 30 on a Saturrday. I can surf through and watch continuous action from noon to 3:00AM on Sunday.

And we need more? There's not enough inventory?

Tell me sigh...LOL
When the Ivy league is on NBCSports(Versus), CAA or someone like that signed recently to get their games on, etc...I can really see the logic of ND and the Big East going to the NBC Family. When I mean obscene money...the FB schools might see $10-13M a piece from what I've been reading from a few articles out there. The Big East with their 4 time zone reach can put live games on for 14 hours on Saturdays...yes, most of it is dreck but NBC Sports looks to to be the king of dreck.

 

[Noexcuse]

Tell me sigh...LOL
When the Ivy league is on NBCSports(Versus), CAA or someone like that signed recently to their games on, etc...I can really see the logic of ND and the Big East going to the NBC Family. When I mean obscene money...the FB schools might see $10-13M a piece from what I've been reading from a few articles out there. The Big East with their 4 time zone reach can put live games on for 14 hours on Saturdays...yes, most of it is dreck but NBC Sports looks to tbe the king of dreck.

It makes sense in a convoluted way I guess. Key would be keeping the conglomerate together and avoiding a split between the fb's and bb's. The Big East's value is hinged to its basketball league and keeping ND on board, and if anything they say is to be believed, ND isn't going all in with the bb's if they split off. I guess it's in ND's interest to keep the mess together so maybe they lean on NBC to work something out. The country waits with baited breath for that saturday matchup between Memphis and UCF.

 

[SmilinBob]

I don't think the country wants to see Duke vs SU in football either.

 

[Townie72]

I'm a little nervous to debate something with a guy who has Swearingine as his picture and don't want to be fed to the pigs but don't you think it's possible the basketball schools really didn't want to have the football schools have too much power? I'm an old guy and I remember what it was like recruiting vs the Bonnies and the like and to have it move to a whole other level, I respect that. And yes, it's quite probable that PSU would have been the Texas of the big east.

Schools are looking for money and stability and the hodge podge that is/was the Big East could not address that. Why do think that was?

Bob ... power to do what? What would they have been afraid of? That's what I don't get.

When the Big East expanded and took in Louisville and USF and the rest, do you remember what the complaint was from some of the schools?

Seems to me the concern was about the academics of some of these schools. And the Big East conference made a statement that in future changes to the schools in the conference that academics would be a significant part of the discussion.

If I'm Georgetown or Notre Dame, I think I would be concerned about being grouped in with USF, UCF, Houston and Louisville. These are open enrollment, commuter schools. The academically selective school may have been saying to themselves, "The Conference management is so desperate to save the football side that they are wrecking the conference".

Even on the footbal side, schools like Syracuse and Rutgers and even UConn would have to start asking themselves, "DO we really want to be thought of as a equivalent school to UCF or Louisville or Houston?

 

[All4SU]

(Notre Dame said it would not take part in a split.)

When did ND "say" this? I don't recall ever reading a statement from ND to that effect. What does the author suggest that ND do with it's non-football sports? Surely, running as an independent in all sports would be a nightmare. I sincerely hope that the ACC would not entertain a partial membership for ND. Not sure about the B12, but I can't imagine anyone at ND really wants that anyway. I still think they would end up with the BE BBall onlies -- it makes too much sense for them to continue to play Marquette, SJU, GTown, Providence, Seton Hall, Villanova, with the addition of Xavier, Dayton and maybe Butler. They would still have a stong NE presence for their Olympic sports, as well as some closer regional games with Xavier, Dayton, Butler and Marquette. Logic tells me this is the way they would have to go.

 

[Noexcuse]

I don't think the country wants to see Duke vs SU in football either.

Eh, yeah probably not. But the NYC market . . . . . . ?

 

[SmilinBob]

Eh, yeah probably not. But the NYC market . . . . . . ?

Watches or does something else unless it's raining and there is nothing else on tv.

 

[kingottoiii]

Do I have to review the concept that "markets" are worthless without fans in them?

Not at all. What you are failing to see is that the ACC has no fans outside of FSU and Clemson. So the question remains why can the ACC make money with no fans yet the BE could not? :crazy:

 

[OrangeXtreme]

So the football schools were somehow injured by having to play basketball in the oft-characterized "greatest basketball conference ever".

And what more football school would they have wanted to add? Houston, SMU and UCF? And you think SU would have stood by and just let that happen?

SU didn't have a problem with TCU, but I think they were less than thrilled with Nova.

 

[TexanMark]

Bob ... power to do what? What would they have been afraid of? That's what I don't get.

When the Big East expanded and took in Louisville and USF and the rest, do you remember what the complaint was from some of the schools?

Seems to me the concern was about the academics of some of these schools. And the Big East conference made a statement that in future changes to the schools in the conference that academics would be a significant part of the discussion.

If I'm Georgetown or Notre Dame, I think I would be concerned about being grouped in with USF, UCF, Houston and Louisville. These are open enrollment, commuter schools. The academically selective school may have been saying to themselves, "The Conference management is so desperate to save the football side that they are wrecking the conference".

Even on the footbal side, schools like Syracuse and Rutgers and even UConn would have to start asking themselves, "DO we really want to be thought of as a equivalent school to UCF or Louisville or Houston?

I just wonder if the Universities are willing to overlook a few schools academic pedigree/missions if it brings in more TV money? The times are screwy. I think SU needs to worry about their own academic pedigree.

 

[SmilinBob]

Bob ... power to do what? What would they have been afraid of? That's what I don't get.

When the Big East expanded and took in Louisville and USF and the rest, do you remember what the complaint was from some of the schools?

Seems to me the concern was about the academics of some of these schools. And the Big East conference made a statement that in future changes to the schools in the conference that academics would be a significant part of the discussion.

If I'm Georgetown or Notre Dame, I think I would be concerned about being grouped in with USF, UCF, Houston and Louisville. These are open enrollment, commuter schools. The academically selective school may have been saying to themselves, "The Conference management is so desperate to save the football side that they are wrecking the conference".

Even on the footbal side, schools like Syracuse and Rutgers and even UConn would have to start asking themselves, "DO we really want to be thought of as a equivalent school to UCF or Louisville or Houston?

Power to lose and be under the football schools control. Fear of them getting too strong/attractive to other conferences and leaving them behind which is what did happen.

I agree with the commuter thing...it also hurts when it comes to recruiting players and it's an uneven playing field when it comes to academic requirements. The basketball schools were happy to get Louisville and the compromise was perhaps USF/Cincy but they also fit the urban thing the big east had as well along with staying in Florida. UCF and Houston are desperation to appease the current football schools.