NBA Thread 2020-21 Season

[jncuse]

Ehh was it that way when KD and Klay got hurt 2 years ago? There have been big injuries in the playoffs going back to the 80's. Magic. Isiah. Worthy. All in different seasons.

Dirk got hurt on one of the best Mav's teams of the 2000's. Joe Johnson in 2005. Perkins in the finals in 2010. Ewing got hurt one year.

Klay Thompson played 32 minutes or more in all 5 of the 6 games he played (and averaged nearly 38 minutes) The Raptors went 3-2 in those 5 games. He missed one game in the finals. I hate that people claim if Klay had not been injured the Raptors lose the finals. That is a hard claim to validate. The numbers are the facts.

As for Durant -- that is a different story. He would have very likely been a difference maker and switched the series around to a GSW win.

 

[Day2]

The asterisk stuff comes up way too much. No champion 10 years from now will ever be viewed that way. Even the Rockets who won 2 while Jordan was playing baseball aren’t viewed that way.

It’s viewed that way for the Bulls. You hear all the time how they would have won two more rings. It’s part of the Jordan vs LBJ debate as well.

People don’t mention the Spurs first title as much because they won so many more. The Lakers were the perfect team to win it last year for the same reason.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Klay Thompson played 32 minutes or more in all 5 of the 6 games he played (and averaged nearly 38 minutes) The Raptors went 3-2 in those 5 games. He missed one game in the finals. I hate that people claim if Klay had not been injured the Raptors lose the finals. That is a hard claim to validate. The numbers are the facts.

As for Durant -- that is a different story. He would have very likely been a difference maker and switched the series around to a GSW win.

I didn't say it should be an asterisk, but Klay was playing out of his mind in game 5 until he got hurt. They could have easily won that game. That said I don't view any title with an asterisk. It's usually a hater of another team trying to de-value another teams title. Injuries are part of the game.

 

[jncuse]

Kawhi and Anthony Davis are high injury risks. That is a risk you accept when you sign them. And I don't say that in spite, because I wanted Kawhi to sign with the Raptors even knowing there is a higher short term and also longer term injury risk with him than most stars.

If these guys have a handful of playoff runs, its likely in one year they will get dinged up in one of them.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It’s viewed that way for the Bulls. You hear all the time how they would have won two more rings. It’s part of the Jordan vs LBJ debate as well.

People don’t mention the Spurs first title as much because they won so many more. The Lakers were the perfect team to win it last year for the same reason.

Ehhh 8 in a row would have been difficult. It would have taken off a couple at the end. MJ was fried. He admitted it. I never hear any fans discredit any of the Spurs titles. In fact the Spurs were celebrated for doing it the right way.

 

[Day2]

Ehhh 8 in a row would have been difficult. It would have taken off a couple at the end. MJ was fried. He admitted it. I never hear any fans discredit any of the Spurs titles. In fact the Spurs were celebrated for doing it the right way.

That’s all and good, but that’s the perception for a lot of people when it comes to the Bulls. You said no champion will ever be viewed with an asterisk after 10 years. By you, I get that. Not by everyone, obviously.

As for the Spurs, I’m only referring to their first title. There’s no reason to discredit any of their other titles.

 

[jncuse]

I didn't say it should be an asterisk, but Klay was playing out of his mind in game 5 until he got hurt. They could have easily won that game. That said I don't view any title with an asterisk. It's usually a hater of another team trying to de-value another teams title. Injuries are part of the game.

There is actually just as much merit (if not more merit) in my claiming the Raptors could have easily won that game or game 7, even if Klay Thompson had not been hurt.

In games that only Thompson played but Durant did not, Toronto was 3-1. He was -11 on the floor in the series. I have no problem in people saying Durant made a difference. But when you have a sample of 5 games and 190 minutes where Toronto outplayed the Warriors (a bit) with Thompson on the floor, I don't even think its that fair to bring it up as much of series changing factor. The Raptors overall proved they were a tad better then a Durant less GSW team over the series. **

** Now I know you are bringing it up as a "may" which irritates me less than those claim that the Thompson injury did change the outcome. Those really bother me.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That’s all and good, but that’s the perception for a lot of people when it comes to the Bulls. You said no champion will ever be viewed with an asterisk after 10 years. By you, I get that. Not by everyone, obviously.

As for the Spurs, I’m only referring to their first title. There’s no reason to discredit any of their other titles.

People of a certain age (Mid 30's to Mid 40's) are very protective of anything Michael Jordan.

 

[MikeSU02]

Clips are who I was rooting for bc of Kawhi. If they lose, I honestly am not sure who I would root for.

I don't hate any of the teams (even Brooklyn), but man, what a wild year.

 

[jncuse]

Clips are who I was rooting for bc of Kawhi. If they lose, I honestly am not sure who I would root for.

I don't hate any of the teams (even Brooklyn), but man, what a wild year.

I know you are a fan of superstars, and no problem with that.
But even without the injuries, this MIGHT have been a year that the superstars lost more than normal in the playoffs. I put might because this series may have went either way.

You might think that is bad for the sport to have less stars --- that is a personal preference so I can't disagree with it -- but I actually think it is a good thing for the league, if there is more parity / unpredictability in the playoffs and less teams winning by teaming up stars. Entering the playoffs moving forward with say 6 or 7 contenders than 3 or 4 is a good thing in my view. Of course there will often be that 1 or 2 elite contender.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Clips are who I was rooting for bc of Kawhi. If they lose, I honestly am not sure who I would root for.

I don't hate any of the teams (even Brooklyn), but man, what a wild year.

Root for the Jazz so that it validates that a team building, player development approach can also win and it's not just about hoard assets and cap space so I can get some starzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[samspann1]

 

[MikeSU02]

Root for the Jazz so that it validates that a team building, player development approach can also win and it's not just about hoard assets and cap space so I can get some starzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I really hated Karl Malone and John Stockton. A lot.

I really can't get past that.

 

[jncuse]

Root for the Jazz so that it validates that a team building, player development approach can also win and it's not just about hoard assets and cap space so I can get some starzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I feel the same way.

I know I have adopted the Jazz this series in part because I dislike the Clippers, but I see in the Jazz something similar to the Raptors (pre and post) Kawhi. And that is also why I want a team like that to win. Obviously much different roster structure, but a well coached team that developed many players that were not lotto picks -- either late firsts, seconds, or undrafted. And not a big market team that is teaming up stars.

The Raptors went 59-23 and 53-19 the two seasons wrapped around the one year Kawhi was here. They were really good teams, especially the 2020 team which accomplished so much more than the sum of its parts (had no Derozan or Kawhi) But in both those years I didn't believe in the Raptors had much of a shot because they lacked a star. And I am not sure if that is healthy for the league to be honest **. I think its healthy if non star, internally developed teams like the Jazz that do well in the regular season can break the mold in the playoffs. I think its good for the league when a well structured, well coached, well developed team like the 2020 Heat with a "star" in Jimmy Butler make a push, (Although not sure what the heck happened to the heat in 2021 and the 2020 bubble playoffs may have caused some really weird things)

 

[MikeSU02]

 

[Day2]

People of a certain age. Mid 30's to Mid 40's are very protective of anything Michael Jordan.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Strongly agree.

I know I have adopted the Jazz this series in part because I dislike the Clippers, but I see in the Jazz something similar to the Raptors (pre and post) Kawhi. And that is also why I want a team like that to win. Obviously much different roster structure, but a well coached team that developed many players that were not lotto picks -- either late firsts, seconds, or undrafted.

The Raptors went 59-23 and 53-19 the two seasons wrapped around the one year Kawhi was here. They were really good teams, especially the 2020 team which accomplished so much more than the sum of its parts (had no Derozan or Kawhi) But in both those years I didn't believe in the Raptors had much of a shot because they lacked a star. And I am not sure if that is healthy for the league to be honest **. I think its healthy if non star, internally developed teams like the Jazz that do well in the regular season can break the mold in the playoffs. I think its good for the league when a well structured, well coached, well developed team like the 2020 Heat with a "star" in Jimmy Butler make a push. (Although not sure what the heck happened to the heat in 2021)


** In retrospect I'm not sure if its the lack of the star that caused the Raptors to fail in the 2020 playoffs (or at least not get to the finals). What probably hurt Toronto more was not that Pascal Siakam was not a star, it was that he was playing so-so far below his regular efficiency level in the bubble. And Marc Gasol aged about 17 years between February 2020 and the summer of 2020.

Yeah, I was rooting for the Raptors when they acquired Kawhi because I think more franchises should say "screw it, we're going for it" so I was happy to see it worked.

 

[OrangeDW]

Oh no...

 

[Knicks411]

Marv thought Harden blocked it lol. Harden couldn't even jump an inch last night.

I couldnt blame him though; how on earth do you airball an open elbow jumper??

 

[shandeezy7]

Oh no...

Has Dickie V been in the same champagne room as Harden before?

 

[OrangeDW]

That’s all and good, but that’s the perception for a lot of people when it comes to the Bulls. You said no champion will ever be viewed with an asterisk after 10 years. By you, I get that. Not by everyone, obviously.

As for the Spurs, I’m only referring to their first title. There’s no reason to discredit any of their other titles.

People overlook a lot of things. If they didn’t pick up Rodman, they almost surely wouldn’t have won those last 3.

If they’d won 5 in a row to start, would they have ever signed Rodman?

People overlook that Horace Grant left. The Bulls very well may have won their 4th in a row in 94 if Jordan never retired, but they would NOT have won it all in 95 without Grant and without a suitable replacement for him.

People overlook that that particular Bulls team really wasn’t very good...even if they had a peak Jordan, they had a major hole inside.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

cliftonparksufan could learn a few things from you.

I'm really not a horrible person. I never thought of the possibility of a season ending injury. I just thought he was banged up and would miss one game. I like Kawhi and everthing he has accomplished. A real hard worker.

 

[rrlbees]

Root for the Jazz so that it validates that a team building, player development approach can also win and it's not just about hoard assets and cap space so I can get some starzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

root for the jazz because Hughes would get a ring.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

root for the jazz because Hughes would get a ring.

Also a valid reason.

And then we could say that we've produced two straight NBA champions.

 

[jncuse]

Yeah, I was rooting for the Raptors when they acquired Kawhi because I think more franchises should say "screw it, we're going for it" so I was happy to see it worked.

No take backs on the Kawhi trade at all. Would do that 100 times out of 100.

But my point on the Jazz, or the Suns, is that it would be great for a team constructed of good players without a superstar to win. To give hope to teams like the 2018 and 2020 Raptors -- teams that did not have Kawhi.

I would have liked to have seen how the Raptors would have moved forward without a Kawhi trade, and with a few other not so major tweaks to that 2018 team. Derozan has still been great with the Spurs -- would he still be a playoff bum? JV has been really good for Memphis. The biggest tweak was Lebron getting the hell out of the eastern conference after all.

But getting back to winning without a star. I could reasonably argue that what held the 2020 Raptors from making the finals was 2 factors, neither of which had anything to do with a lack of star:
1) Pascal Siakam - He is not a star. But the issue was not that he is not a star -- the issue is that he played so far below his normal level in the playoffs -- there is playoff regression and then there is what happened to him (and Demar) in the playoffs.
2) Marc Gasol was great in February 2020. He aged 17 years by August 2020.

It would be good if really good players that are arguably not superstars, like Booker, Mitchell, Gobert, Butler lead there teams to playoff success because they are playing well.

I am just blabbering at this point. Anyway Go Jazz!