Nelson and Clarke arrested

[Don]

Right. Because difficult circumstances never push people to make bad decisions that they otherwise wouldn't make.

Dude your making your point look bad with this argument you really are,

If they stole food or some other life needing material you might have a point, they stole 500 dollar boots and play stations , not winter jackets or gloves or stuff like that.
A father stealing food for his family or something like that maybe but stealing Pkwy stations is just plain dumb.
If your 1 or 14 and you steal something maybe you have a point, if you lost your job and needed food you may have a point , stealing weird named boots is dumb.

College athletes should be paid and get part of the pie,
College athletes stealing other people's property is a character flaw.
It's not the same as being poor and stealing to feed yourself.

 

[bcubs9497]

Right. Because difficult circumstances never push people to make bad decisions that they otherwise wouldn't make.

Circumstances are superfluous. Stealing is stealing. Has nothing to do with how much or little the NCAA pays them.

And, what Don said.

 

[orangecuse]

Right. Because difficult circumstances never push people to make bad decisions that they otherwise wouldn't make.

There are bad decisions...and then there are bad decisions of the criminal nature.

 

[Roger N]

Right. Because difficult circumstances never push people to make bad decisions that they otherwise wouldn't make.

Who is pushed to wear $500 boots?

 

[OrangePA]

In 2012, I came in with 21 other guys. Of us, one was arrested, three transferred (two were asked to leave), one quit, two didn’t qualify, and one was dismissed for drugs. Some weren’t even asked back for their fifth year. As for the rest of us, only nine ever started a game. Out of that group, just two signed with an NFL team.

These sort of numbers are littered throughout every recruiting class. I’m telling you because I want you to understand that it isn’t easy. Some guys can’t handle it. They get on campus and immediate satisfaction takes over. They forget their own goals and lose themselves. Alcohol, weed, romantic interests. It’s usually one of the three and they don’t even realize it.

-- Julian Whigham

Tremendous insight

 

[OrangeDW]

Dude your making your point look bad with this argument you really are,

If they stole food or some other life needing material you might have a point, they stole 500 dollar boots and play stations , not winter jackets or gloves or stuff like that.
A father stealing food for his family or something like that maybe but stealing Pkwy stations is just plain dumb.
If your 1 or 14 and you steal something maybe you have a point, if you lost your job and needed food you may have a point , stealing weird named boots is dumb.

College athletes should be paid and get part of the pie,
College athletes stealing other people's property is a character flaw.
It's not the same as being poor and stealing to feed yourself.

I'm not even talking about these two. I don't know their financial situation. But usually these stories where players are stealing laptops, jewelry, and the like? They're not doing that because they want to wear the jewelry or use the computers. They're doing it to sell the stolen items and get money because they're desperate for cash even though they are right in the middle of a multi billion-dollar business.

These are extreme cases, but it comes back to the simple fact: hundreds of poor kids play big time college sports. They help bring in millions and millions and don't see a dime of it

If you don't see how those things are connected, I really don't know what else to say to you.

Again, these robberies are extreme cases...but they are almost always rooted in the same general issue.

 

[OrangeDW]

Who is pushed to wear $500 boots?

Who says they're wearing them?

 

[bcubs9497]

Tremendous insight

With a tremendous future ahead of him. Intelligence and wisdom together is a RARE gift.

 

[bcubs9497]

I'm not even talking about these two. I don't know their financial situation. But usually these stories where players are stealing laptops, jewelry, and the like? They're not doing that because they want to wear the jewelry or use the computers. They're doing it to sell the stolen items and get money because they're desperate for cash even though they are right in the middle of a multi billion-dollar business.

These are extreme cases, but it comes back to the simple fact: hundreds of poor kids play big time college sports. They help bring in millions and millions and don't see a dime of it

If you don't see how those things are connected, I really don't know what else to say to you.

Again, these robberies are extreme cases...but they are almost always rooted in the same general issue.

And what about the victim? It is possible that the kid and his family aren't flish with cash. Where's your sympathy for the victim?

 

[dasher]

And what about the victim? It is possible that the kid and his family aren't flish with cash. Where's your sympathy for the victim?

out to the same exact thing. If I bought my kid that stuff with money that I worked hard for, I wouldn't be quite so understanding.

 

[OrangeDW]

And what about the victim? It is possible that the kid and his family aren't flish with cash. Where's your sympathy for the victim?

Huh? You're weirdly trying to paint your own narrative here again. You already asked me that question earlier. I answered.

I didn't even say I had sympathy for the ones who stole! They should and will face whatever consequences are deemed appropriate. Hopefully the victims get their stuff back. Why do you keep asking me this? Would anybody NOT have sympathy for a robbery victim?

Let me guess the reply from 3-4 of you..."stealing is wrong". No .

 

[OrangeTarheel]

As a personal example from when I was at the 'cuse ... I knew someone who came from poor circumstances in NYC. They never wanted to go home for the holiday but the university would not let them stay. When they were home they would get lonely, I used to get phone calls from them at pay phones late at night in the south Bronx. As our president would Tweet, BAD!

This person was on a full ride scholarship and had a job through the university. Free housing, no tuition plus meal plan an walking around cash. Guess who was stealing something every week? Sometimes it was stuff they could use for class but sometimes it wasn't -- never was it about need.

I don't know if that person and these two young men are similar in any way ... but I do know that poverty and bad influences (friends, family, etc.) can make for a culture that I don't understand. To this day I don't know why this person stole. I like to think that they felt owed something and were making a statement that they were going to get theirs regardless of the hand they were dealt. That was, to me, the best case scenario. As an adult I think that analysis assumed a lot ... it is more truthful to say I won't ever understand what it is to grow up truly impoverished.

 

[dasher]

Huh? You're weirdly trying to paint your own narrative here again. You already asked me that question earlier. I answered.

I didn't even say I had sympathy for the ones who stole!

Let me guess the reply from 3-4 of you..."stealing is wrong". No .

DW, you are going out of your way to say that if these kids (not necessarily these kids) would not steal if they were given a stipend. I don't know there is any evidence to back that up. Some people wouldn't steal no matter what. others would no matter what. A lot of rich people steal every day.

 

[Roger N]

Who says they're wearing them?

I had to fire the number one salesman in my company one time for cheating on his expense reports. His excuse was the company didn't reimburse him enough in his mind for his parking. People have all sorts of excuses. A thief is a thief. It will be interesting to see what the whole story is.

 

[OrangeDW]

DW, you are going out of your way to say that if these kids (not necessarily these kids) would not steal if they were given a stipend. I don't know there is any evidence to back that up. Some people wouldn't steal no matter what. others would no matter what. A lot of rich people steal every day.

Again...there are extreme examples, there are exceptions on both sides of rich/poor. There will always be bad people who do bad things.

Speaking in general terms, I think we'd see less of these incidents if these kids were better off financially.

People act like I'm defending stealing, or don't care about the victims, or have sympathy for those stealing, etc...pretty weird. But I knew it would happen...pretty sure I said it in one of my first replies in this thread.

 

[Don]

Huh? You're weirdly trying to paint your own narrative here again. You already asked me that question earlier. I answered.

I didn't even say I had sympathy for the ones who stole! They should and will face whatever consequences are deemed appropriate. Hopefully the victims get their stuff back. Why do you keep asking me this? Would anybody NOT have sympathy for a robbery victim?

Let me guess the reply from 3-4 of you..."stealing is wrong". No .

You are getting negative feedback because you are giving reasons for stealing non life needing items, maybe without really thinking what your saying.

I think athletes should get paid but if they dont, there us no reason to steal it cannot be justified at all for any reason , nor can it go unpunished for any reason . These are not guys who stole for life needing purposes . Heck they are not convicted yet so they may even be innocent .
Your argument though is just simply another reason to justify bad behavior.
Find some other reason to justify paying athletes. Using arguments about stealing fancy boots and play stations is just plain ridiculous.

 

[dasher]

I had to fire the number one salesman in my company one time for cheating on his expense reports. His excuse was the company didn't reimburse him enough in his mind for his parking. People have all sorts of excuses. A thief is a thief. It will be interesting to see what the whole story is.

which reminds me, a guy goes from Boston to Detroit on business. On his expense report, he writes parking at the airport $$ Airplane ticket $$ cab from the airport in Detroit $$ rain coat because it was raining $$. Anyway, on his next paycheck he gets his expenses but there is a red line over the rain coat. Not an acceptable expense is written on it. On his next trip he has the same expenses except the rain coat. He adds a red line to it, the rain coat is in there, you find it.

 

[OrangeDW]

You are getting negative feedback because you are giving reasons for stealing non life needing items, maybe without really thinking what your saying.

I think athletes should get paid but if they dont, there us no reason to steal it cannot be justified at all for any reason , nor can it go unpunished for any reason . These are not guys who stole for life needing purposes . Heck they are not convicted yet so they may even be innocent .
Your argument though is just simply another reason to justify bad behavior.
Find some other reason to justify paying athletes. Using arguments about stealing fancy boots and play stations is just plain ridiculous.

Yeah, you're completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not giving reasons for anything, I'm not justifying anything...I'm not making this stuff up to create some imaginary defense of this behavior. I'm telling things that I know.

People don't only steal "life needing items". Me stating these things is NOT me defending these things. I can't believe I have to keep saying that, but I do. I'm simply stating what I know. Sometimes people desperate for cash steal valuable things that are easy to steal and that are easy to sell...and they sell them. Again...that's an extreme example. Most people don't steal, poor or not.

 

[Roger N]

which reminds me, a guy goes from Boston to Detroit on business. On his expense report, he writes parking at the airport $$ Airplane ticket $$ cab from the airport in Detroit $$ rain coat because it was raining $$. Anyway, on his next paycheck he gets his expenses but there is a red line over the rain coat. Not an acceptable expense is written on it. On his next trip he has the same expenses except the rain coat. He adds a red line to it, the rain coat is in there, you find it.

So they didn't figure it out. Good for you

 

[SWC75]

Shades of Malcolm Cater if that turns out to be the case.

I remember reading that Cater was claiming to the cops that the TV was his. Then they asked him "Why does it have snow on it?"

 

[SUforme]

Sucks and I''m sure it happens at plenty of schools but as was stated we had Cater, Brewster, Walls, Clarke, Nelson. I'm probably forgetting some as well. It's bad in general, but in particular these 2 were both in positions that are in need on the team, and i'm sure were expected to contribute.

 

[CuseOnly]

Yeah, you're completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not giving reasons for anything, I'm not justifying anything...I'm not making this stuff up to create some imaginary defense of this behavior. I'm telling things that I know.

People don't only steal "life needing items". Me stating these things is NOT me defending these things. I can't believe I have to keep saying that, but I do. I'm simply stating what I know. Sometimes people desperate for cash steal valuable things that are easy to steal and that are easy to sell...and they sell them. Again...that's an extreme example. Most people don't steal, poor or not.

What I find funny about your argument is that the NCAA approved giving athletes a stipend to cover total cost of attendance which before the last year or 2 did not exist. Most of the schools in D1 if not all now give stipends to athletes.

Bottom line, athletes at schools across the country broke the law and made dumb decisions before having stipends.

News flash, stipends regardless of amount aren't going to stop kids from making bad decisions and breaking the law going forward. Kind of kills your argument dead.

Over the next few years, if we see a large decrease in law breaking and dumb decision making by D1 Student Athletes, I will be happy to eat crow. I would be willing to bet incidents over the next few years will rise because it's not about money, it's about entitlement.

 

[HtownOrange]

Here's a solution...pay the people that are bringing in the money! How hard is that?

Respectfully, I understand your position,; however, all athletes agree to the terms placed upon them by the NCAA and the individual Universities. Society rejects theft. Assuming the facts as presented are correct, the two kids stole. They should be punished. Punishment should fit the crime. Firt offenses usually result in restitution and some community service to remind them that crime does not pay. Beyond a first offense, they should face harsher penalties.

That said, yes football and basketball brings in lots of money. Fair point. The monies are used to help fellow athletes in far less revenue generating sports get their degrees and have prosperous lives. Simply taking the revenues generated by football and basketball and paying players more would destroy other sports (aside from causing issues with Title IX). This is not a decision within a vacuum, there are many pieces to the puzzle and simply paying out a lot of money for a kid to play football is not feasible. SU already pays a stipend, that these two are not satisfied with the stipend is immaterial, theft is wrong. Recall that the kids already get a full ride in academics for up to five years, get all the gear they need, get food coming out their ears (figuratively) with professional advise on how to balance their needs with their diets, they get special privileges regarding fitness and they get more life coaching than the average student.

Living within ones means is a life lesson that each of us must learn. These two decided they did not need to live within their means (Free tuition, gear, food, books, etc. and a stipend) or they decided the stipend was not sufficient for their desires. They took a chance (risk assessment) and got caught (still operating on the assumption that what we have seen released is true). Giving them more money is not the answer, living within their means is the answer. No one forced these kids to sign with Syracuse, they knew the deal and when one considers that they are essentially getting a $100K+/year job (they don't pay taxes on the free ride, gear, books, etc.) as a high school graduate, who among us wouldn't sign up for that? Many on here would take that offer now!

That said, if Syracuse is losing out on the low stipend (mentioned elsewhere in the thread), they need to re-assess the matter and what is actually included in the package deal. The SEC is paying off kids, no doubt, Syracuse probably cannot afford to pay all athletes the same stipend as the SEC schools can. There will be a balance and Syracuse will have to find it.

 

[Toga]

That said, if Syracuse is losing out on the low stipend (mentioned elsewhere in the thread), they need to re-assess the matter and what is actually included in the package deal. The SEC is paying off kids, no doubt, Syracuse probably cannot afford to pay all athletes the same stipend as the SEC schools can. There will be a balance and Syracuse will have to find it.

This was a point of discussion awhile back, representing a source of frustration to me and others. I know it has to do with formulas that a school uses and those formulas result in significantly different amounts of money going to the student athlete. Does anyone have the specifics on why this is and why SU is disadvantaged (or is disadvantaging itself)?

 

[HtownOrange]

DW, you are going out of your way to say that if these kids (not necessarily these kids) would not steal if they were given a stipend. I don't know there is any evidence to back that up. Some people wouldn't steal no matter what. others would no matter what. A lot of rich people steal every day.

Well said, I would add:

...and most poor people don't steal. I think this is why so many on here (myself somewhat included) are taking a harder stance, simply most people don't steal and society forbids it. Most of us would have more sympathy if it was really for food, but boots are not food an these two have all the food they can eat (and more shoved down their throat if they don't bulk up enough!) so the food issue and sympathy are thrown out of the equation.

People can point to higher crime stats in the poor areas, but what is ignored is that the majority of people in all areas (for the sake of discussion, I think we can excuse the prisons, jails and Washington, D.C.) are law abiding and that they live within their means and if they want something they earn it (work more, save more, be patient until they can afford it).