Not Happy

[HOFCeluck]

That's fine -- not looking to derail a thread. My point was that $$ is pretty much the driving factor for every single decision made by athletics departments today. If you want to argue that or disagree, I'm OK with it, but to criticize coaches for being lured by huge $$ seems hypocritical if you're doing it from the perspective of the sanctity and tradition/history of your football program. Everything's for sale, IMO.

Fair enough. I have no qualms about the program being "used" or whatever...it just means Coyle nailed the hire.

 

[Scooch]

Shafer made the mistake of winning a bowl game in his first year as coach. If he reversed things, he'd be here next year.

Nah, his "mistake" was going 6-17 after his bowl season.

 

[OrangeAl]

One of the hardest parts about letting Shafer go is that he could've been THE guy for many, many years to come had it panned out. Unfortunately, Syracuse is not a destination coaching job and we all just need to accept that. Unless the BOT opens up checkbook about 3x what is currently doing, no chance we would be able to hang on to someone who is successful here. The college football environment is so incredibly competitive and schools are pulling out all of the stops to get the best coaches available, regardless of cost. I slightly disagree with the argument that then we would be in better shape with a "stepper" or "user" because we would then have to find another HC, who could then turn out to be a flop and we're back to square one.

I want to see consistency and I hope that if Coyle's hire turns out to be a success, that Syverud and the BoT, give him the green light to greatly increase the terms of the deal via extension. I do not want to be a stepping school, but we will be until we get serious financially about where we're headed.

Syracuse is a destination coaching job. Coach Mac was here ten years. Coach P was here 15 years. GRob and HCSS were fired. Only our illustrious alum HCDM left on his own after a short tenure.

 

[Scooch]

That's fine -- not looking to derail a thread. My point was that $$ is pretty much the driving factor for every single decision made by athletics departments today. If you want to argue that or disagree, I'm OK with it, but to criticize coaches for being lured by huge $$ seems hypocritical if you're doing it from the perspective of the sanctity and tradition/history of your football program. Everything's for sale, IMO.

SU fans have been so insulated from the reality of college coaching. We've had our hoops coach on the job for 40 years. Our legendary lacrosse program has had just three coaches over, what, six decades? In football we went through a stretch where we had just 4 coaches in 50+ years.

This school has been a crazy outlier all things considered.

 

[llandz]

Maybe we should look at it as we are the ones doing the using. I have no problem "using" a coach who is climbing up the coaching ladder. If he is good enough to "use" us also and then makes a leap to another bigger coaching job (ex SEC school, Notre Dame, USC, Oregon, etc) then that means we have made a GIANT leap as a program because his leap would have been because of our success as a program.. The next coach after our mutually used coach will then maybe be a longer term coach. It works both ways. I want success and WINS not longevity of mediocrity.

 

[Deuga]

I would have liked to have seen Shafer get another year as a few others have said here. But Coyle decided to fire him. He's the one on the inside, so I've turned the page.

I agree Syracuse is a destination job for some coaches, but it won't be for others. To me it's more important to bring someone in who can build a winning tradition, even if they jump ship for greener pastures after 4 years once SU wins the ACC! Which would you rather have, 10 years of decent consistency or 4 years of fabulous glory? I'd choose glory. Besides, if that happens, I think we'll find the money to keep him long term anyway.

 

[bt4421]

I think some are exaggerating my viewpoint. I never stated that I would begrudge someone for going to greener pastures. Neither am I standing on the ledge ready to jump.

Simply, I thought SS was the best way for consistency and to build a program with a head coach who I thought had a very good chance of being here for a long time. I'm also a defense first guy, and the thought of becoming a TCU, Baylor, Oregon east giving up 30 points a game (granted winning) just doesn't set well with my smash mouth, blue collar, old school ways

I would be most optimistic over either Ed Orgeron and alumnus Dave Warner. Someone with NE ties, former program member, alumnus etc.

See you Saturday. LGO

 

[SUATO92]

I think some are exaggerating my viewpoint. I never stated that I would begrudge someone for going to greener pastures. Neither am I standing on the ledge ready to jump.

Simply, I thought SS was the best way for consistency and to build a program with a head coach who I thought had a very good chance of being here for a long time. I'm also a defense first guy, and the thought of becoming a TCU, Baylor, Oregon east giving up 30 points a game (granted winning) just doesn't set well with my smash mouth, blue collar, old school ways

I would be most optimistic over either Ed Orgeron and alumnus Dave Warner. Someone with NE ties, former program member, alumnus etc.

See you Saturday. LGO

Giving up 30 and winning beats losing a 10-7 rock fight. And we have been giving up 30 points a game with a defensive head coach.

 

[CousCuse]

Giving up 30 and winning beats losing a 10-7 rock fight. And we have been giving up 30 points a game with a defensive head coach.

Alabama's defense had a down year last year , ALABAMA. That is why they didn't win the championship.

 

[billsin01]

Syracuse is a destination coaching job. Coach Mac was here ten years. Coach P was here 15 years. GRob and HCSS were fired. Only our illustrious alum HCDM left on his own after a short tenure.

'Destination job'? I'd accuse you of using a tired cliche, except I've never heard that term before so I suppose I can't. But what about Syracuse screams destination? The location in the northeast and in one of the 'worst' (perception, at least) climates in the country? The fact that it's a smallish private school fighting against massive public land grant institutions and huge private football factories? The fact that it draws 30K a game to an outdated stadium? The fact that the program is 64-103 since the Insight Bowl win in 2001?

I mean, I get it, we're a power 5 school and that carries some weight. I also am not trying to simply hammer the program I root for. But the bottom line with however one would define a 'destination' program is that you need to take context into account. Notre Dame had a hard time landing it's top candidate once Davie and Ty had done their best to destroy things. Once Weis actually won some games initially there, I think people had at least a slightly better vibe about it and whenever Kelly moves on, it probably becomes an elite opening again, but that was not the case a few years ago.

But my ultimate point, really, is that unless you are one of the top handful or two of programs, you are likely always going to be in danger of a coach getting scooped up by one of the big fish and/or the NFL. That's the way this thing goes.

 

[billsin01]

Maybe we should look at it as we are the ones doing the using. I have no problem "using" a coach who is climbing up the coaching ladder. If he is good enough to "use" us also and then makes a leap to another bigger coaching job (ex SEC school, Notre Dame, USC, Oregon, etc) then that means we have made a GIANT leap as a program because his leap would have been because of our success as a program.. The next coach after our mutually used coach will then maybe be a longer term coach. It works both ways. I want success and WINS not longevity of mediocrity.

I would take it a step further and argue that if you're able to establish a winning program the duration of coaching tenure is not quite so big a deal. I value JB probably as much or more than most on this board, but I'm not so blind as to think there haven't been coaches to come along who may have even -- albeit potentially for a shorter amount of time -- exceeded what JB has accomplished during stretches of his career. I love that he's been here forever but the idea that a guy comes and has success for 4-5 years before moving on is hardly a huge negative, IMO.

 

[HOFCeluck]

'Destination job'? I'd accuse you of using a tired cliche, except I've never heard that term before so I suppose I can't. But what about Syracuse screams destination? The location in the northeast and in one of the 'worst' (perception, at least) climates in the country? The fact that it's a smallish private school fighting against massive public land grant institutions and huge private football factories? The fact that it draws 30K a game to an outdated stadium? The fact that the program is 64-103 since the Insight Bowl win in 2001?

I mean, I get it, we're a power 5 school and that carries some weight. I also am not trying to simply hammer the program I root for. But the bottom line with however one would define a 'destination' program is that you need to take context into account. Notre Dame had a hard time landing it's top candidate once Davie and Ty had done their best to destroy things. Once Weis actually won some games initially there, I think people had at least a slightly better vibe about it and whenever Kelly moves on, it probably becomes an elite opening again, but that was not the case a few years ago.

But my ultimate point, really, is that unless you are one of the top handful or two of programs, you are likely always going to be in danger of a coach getting scooped up by one of the big fish and/or the NFL. That's the way this thing goes.

I don't think any program is safe. I just honestly think Saban would go back to the NFL tomorrow...if the right opportunity came up.

 

[4the Dubs]

[QUOTE="VirginiaOrange, What company hires any of us and after 3 years of us sucking decides to give us a few more years hoping that we grow into our job.[/QUOTE]

Dot Gov

 

[Rocco]

Syracuse is a destination coaching job. Coach Mac was here ten years. Coach P was here 15 years. GRob and HCSS were fired. Only our illustrious alum HCDM left on his own after a short tenure.

Respectfully, I agree to disagree.

If we can find another coach who has success here, we will simply not be able to fend off the bigger schools if they come calling. We do not have the resources or prestige versus other schools. Had Shafer been successful here, I truly think he would've stuck with us. He had already been here for 7 seasons and was from Ohio.

For example, let's say we land Scott Frost. After 4 years, Frost has us going 10-2 and competing for an ACC Championship. USC, Nebraska or Oregon decide they want to tab him as their next HC. We don't have a lot of ammo when they come calling. We could probably raise his financial package/incentives, but these other schools have far vaster resources to tap into. For that reason alone, Syracuse may not be a destination school.

When Coach P got this gig, it was one of the best jobs in the land. Of course, he was going to stick around for awhile.

I think we would be hard-pressed to find another coach right now, unless it's a former player or coach here, that would stick around if other schools started to pursue him. I hope I'm wrong, but that's my opinion.

 

[SUFan44]

Respectfully, I agree to disagree.

If we can find another coach who has success here, we will simply not be able to fend off the bigger schools if they come calling. We do not have the resources or prestige versus other schools. Had Shafer been successful here, I truly think he would've stuck with us. He had already been here for 7 seasons and was from Ohio.

For example, let's say we land Scott Frost. After 4 years, Frost has us going 10-2 and competing for an ACC Championship. USC, Nebraska or Oregon decide they want to tab him as their next HC. We don't have a lot of ammo when they come calling. We could probably raise his financial package/incentives, but these other schools have far vaster resources to tap into. For that reason alone, Syracuse may not be a destination school.

When Coach P got this gig, it was one of the best jobs in the land. Of course, he was going to stick around for awhile.

I think we would be hard-pressed to find another coach right now, unless it's a former player or coach here, that would stick around if other schools started to pursue him. I hope I'm wrong, but that's my opinion.

Can't say that definitively until they hire the coach. A lot of factors go into decisions to move to greener pastures. Agree that it's unlikely there are any Macs out there but you don't know what matters to people. And regardless, I would love to be in that position in 4 years looking for a new head coach.

What's wrong with being Boise State of the east in football? I would argue we have the potential to be better than them, maybe not W-L wise with our league but better as a program. Why not?

 

[Cuse'91]

Can't say that definitively until they hire the coach. A lot of factors go into decisions to move to greener pastures. Agree that it's unlikely there are any Macs out there but you don't know what matters to people. And regardless, I would love to be in that position in 4 years looking for a new head coach.

What's wrong with being Boise State of the east in football? I would argue we have the potential to be better than them, maybe not W-L wise with our league but better as a program. Why not?

How can we be Boise St? They are a big fish in a little pond; we are a not so big fish in freaking Lake Superior...

 

[Rocco]

Can't say that definitively until they hire the coach. A lot of factors go into decisions to move to greener pastures. Agree that it's unlikely there are any Macs out there but you don't know what matters to people. And regardless, I would love to be in that position in 4 years looking for a new head coach.

What's wrong with being Boise State of the east in football? I would argue we have the potential to be better than them, maybe not W-L wise with our league but better as a program. Why not?

Us being in that position in 4 years means we have experienced some success, but then what? Back to square one finding another coach.

My initial comment was that it would've been great had it panned out with Shafer because he would've stayed here his whole career IMO. Had he just hired Lincoln Riley instead of hiring his ex-buddy George McDonald, he would likely be signing an extension right now.

 

[GoSU96]

Respectfully, I agree to disagree.

If we can find another coach who has success here, we will simply not be able to fend off the bigger schools if they come calling. We do not have the resources or prestige versus other schools. Had Shafer been successful here, I truly think he would've stuck with us. He had already been here for 7 seasons and was from Ohio.

For example, let's say we land Scott Frost. After 4 years, Frost has us going 10-2 and competing for an ACC Championship. USC, Nebraska or Oregon decide they want to tab him as their next HC. We don't have a lot of ammo when they come calling. We could probably raise his financial package/incentives, but these other schools have far vaster resources to tap into. For that reason alone, Syracuse may not be a destination school.

When Coach P got this gig, it was one of the best jobs in the land. Of course, he was going to stick around for awhile.

I think we would be hard-pressed to find another coach right now, unless it's a former player or coach here, that would stick around if other schools started to pursue him. I hope I'm wrong, but that's my opinion.

Cinci has developed to the point where it was able to land Tubbs. Can't worry about being better dealed when you've had two of you last three coaches string together 3 win seasons.

 

[Rocco]

Cinci has developed to the point where it was able to land Tubbs. Can't worry about being better dealed when you've had two of you last three coaches string together 3 win seasons.

Not what I'm worried about, I was just making a point that Shafer could've been a lifer here. That's all.

 

[Pyle]

Was so pulling for coach and his staff and definitely believe he deserved one more year to show something. Whats done is done. We wish him the best and thank him for the many good things he did do. He certainly did not leave the cupboards empty. Should the new staff have some first year success, they will owe much of it to HCSS and company.

The thing that is bothering me even more now, is the fact that I think I'm going to be even more disappointed when the new hire is announced.

I just cant get excited about a coach who will use the university, use our storied program, use the young men, use the fans, and use the community. Someone who has no passion for Syracuse, just himself and his future. I fear who we get will either not perform well and we'll pushing the reset button all over again in three years, or will fare well enough that we'll be pushing the rest button all over again in three years.

I tired of this, and want stability. I thought we had a real chance at that. Yes, SS had a good amount of room for improvement, but his upside was better and given a couple more more seasons and small changes, and I think he would have grown into the position.

Oh, I hope I'm wrong. I hope we can get a HC who is not any of the above, and one who doesn't think defense is an after thought. sorry, but I'm just not too optimistic at this point.

I'd rather be used by a Brian Kelly type than deal with what we have for the past 11 years.

 

[Briancuse]

I think he would have gotten another year if he showed any signs of promise, and there weren't any. He made way too many bad coaching decisions, and proved he was in way over his head.

 

[SUFan44]

How can we be Boise St? They are a big fish in a little pond; we are a not so big fish in freaking Lake Superior...

Just a little bit of a baseline for you - Boise State beat Virginia 56-14 this year.

 

[FortyFourCT]

SS was 6-18 in 2 years. 4-18 if you don't count Villanova and RI, which we shouldn't count. 2 wins, both against Wake, vs the P5.
He should have been fired 2 weeks ago. Great guy? So What? My grandfather was a great guy. I don't want him coaching my football team.

I want to look at a coach after 2-3 years and say, "This guy could win the National Title at Syracuse." If we can't say that about the coach, he is not the right guy.

If I can say that, then he might and probably will get hired away by a bigger team or to the NFL. You know what I say to that? !UCK!NG GREAT! That means he did great here! Then we go out and get another guy to build on that. We do not hire that guy's OC or DC to "keep continuity" whatever that is. And if one of these guys turns down a few offers and stays for a decade, even better. But if our guy is getting hired away every 3-4 years, so what????? that means we are winning games.

Some people's expectations are pathetic. sorry.

 

[bt4421]

SS was 6-18 in 2 years. 4-18 if you don't count Villanova and RI, which we shouldn't count. 2 wins, both against Wake, vs the P5.
He should have been fired 2 weeks ago. Great guy? So What? My grandfather was a great guy. I don't want him coaching my football team.

I want to look at a coach after 2-3 years and say, "This guy could win the National Title at Syracuse." If we can't say that about the coach, he is not the right guy.

If I can say that, then he might and probably will get hired away by a bigger team or to the NFL. You know what I say to that? !UCK!NG GREAT! That means he did great here! Then we go out and get another guy to build on that. We do not hire that guy's OC or DC to "keep continuity" whatever that is. And if one of these guys turns down a few offers and stays for a decade, even better. But if our guy is getting hired away every 3-4 years, so what????? that means we are winning games.

Some people's expectations are pathetic. sorry.

I hate seeing your choice or vocabulary for this forum. I wish the admins would discourage such crap. Two !'s and you think its ok...
Now, to respond to your tirade, my expectations are probably the same as yours. I believe and have always believed that Syracuse should be an 8 win average program with occasional 6 to 10 win years. That's what my expectations are. You and I can disagree on SS, that's fine. I thought we had a staff that would reach that level and also, just as importantly, stay around for a long time.

We might get lucky and hit a home run with the next hire. MIGHT. But it becomes exponentially more difficult to continue hitting homer after homer after homer. I hope we do. Time will tell.