OT: Possible unionization

[mikemorg]

The players get free tuition, room and board at a time when many students are drowning in debt. Doesn't a quality education have some sort of compensatory value in all this?

So you're saying the players are being compensated for providing a service? I'm not a labor lawyer but on the common-sense test, that sounds like the definition of being an employee to me.

And the argument that participation in sports is not mandatory? Neither is having a job, at least in a legal sense (or course you need to earn to survive). Most jobs in this country are "at will". These players sign a contract that compensates them for their services, and they are expected to put in the hours, dress in a uniform, and perform their tasks -- sounds exactly like a job to me.

 

[OttoMets]

The players get free tuition, room and board at a time when many students are drowning in debt. Doesn't a quality education have some sort of compensatory value in all this?

And when every one of them, should his talents allow him to do so, has the option to take his high school diploma and send out his resume to every professional sports team in the world instead of bothering with this horrible and unfair hardship that is a free college education.

Not the NBA and NFL, of course, but that shouldn't be colleges' problem.

 

[Crusty]

And when every one of them, should his talents allow him to do so, has the option to take his high school diploma and send out his resume to every professional sports team in the world instead of bothering with this horrible and unfair hardship that is a free college education.

Not the NBA and NFL, of course, but that shouldn't be colleges' problem.

And it is fair in your mind that they have to surrender the rights to their likeness and signatures as well. Are they slaves?

 

[Alsacs]

The same apocalyptic things were said about MLB when the Flood case was decided and today it is at its financial zenith. When a market exists as strong as the one for college sports, the paradigm will adapt to changing dynamics. College sports will be just fine - the money will be going in different directions to be sure but it will survive and endure so long as the demand is strong. Just because you and I might not be able to foresee the new model today means little.

Comparing College unions to Major League PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL doesn't work for me. I am glad the players got FA as the owners have been taking advantage of the anti-trust exemption for far too long for my liking. Justice Landis calling baseball a game and giving MLB an anti-trust exemption has required the MLBPA be as strong as they have been in protecting the players, but pro athletes and college football players are different. If kids don't want to go to college then challenge Clarett vs. NFL or form another league where they would get paid.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Talk to 100 D1 scholarship athletes and ask them if they are in the major they would pick if they weren't involved with athletics. Ask them if their athletic obligations are limited to 20 hours a week. Ask a football player how much time they actually get off from "required" activities in a 12-month period. Ask them if the coach who recruited them is still working at their school. Ask them if they have wanted to transfer but didn't because they would be forced to sit for a year. Ask them if they have ever had to drop a class because it conflicted with practice. Ask them if they personally know anyone in an Olympic sport who has had their scholarship reduced or removed by a coach.

College football coaches are paid better than NFL coaches. AD's across the country are approaching (or passing) million-dollar salaries. I'm not saying D1 athletes need a union, but they absolutely need a voice. Read a little more on what Colter and the students are pushing for- it's not all about being paid. These men and women aren't getting a "free" education like some of their peers.

 

[Crusty]

And playing in the championship game, the SEIU Wildcats v the Teamster Orange. Rah!!!!

OK I did not read the story (Yawn, when unions are involved I pass)

'Where the vale of Onondaga
Meets the Teamster sky'

And you like the Every Corporation and Product or Service in the World Bowl? When there is a double standard I pass.

 

[texascpa]

so then the NCAA takes way all scholorships, pays every athelet a 25K stipend and the kids foot the full bill to attend.. but that means the kids now pay taxes on the 50K gift they get now.. where does this end.. does Div II and div III join in?

A gift is not taxable to the recipient, is taxable to the giver depending on the amount.

But it wouldn't matter because if they were employees the $25K would be considered income.

Now here's the interesting part: IRS deems scholarships for under graduate STUDENTS tax free. If they receive employee status would the IRS still consider them students for purposes of income recognition of the scholarship?

 

[Alsacs]

Here is my suggestion for cleaning all of this up.
Require that college universities compensate their student athletes for the 20 hours each week they can be affiliated with the team at minimum wage a la how we all had jobs in work study. So that would be about 150 dollars a week for the kids. That is a little spending money for the athletes.

Allow the Universities to pay student athletes for signing merchandize and then have the university sell that merchandize and make the money back for paying the athletes. Then any profits generated from selling the merchandize is split 50-50 by the university and athlete.

Allow the athletes to return their Universities and receive free education if they leave the school without a degree.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

First of all college accounting for athletics is garbage. They include as expenses the retail price of a scholarship, which is not the actual cost - certainly not the marginal cost. THe reported profits are significantly lower than actual profits.

Federal reports filed by 244 major college football programs show combined revenue of $3.6 billion for 2012 and profit of $1.1 billion. Men's basketball added another $1.1 billion in revenue and $300 million in profit.

These numbers are about to skyrocket with all the new contracts and cable channels etc.

They can certainly afford a couple of hundred million in increased benefits for players. The numbers are so heavily weighted

This is not a private vs public school issue. Labor law is federal law and it trumps state law. I like the kids' chances.

Crusty, that is one interpretation (re: the public/private applicability). Here is the source that UCONN fans are hanging their hat on (sorry, but you have to read down a half dozen or so paragraphs if you are so inclined)...

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/29/long-road-ahead-northwestern-athletes-move-unionize

 

[CU44SE]

Here is my suggestion for cleaning all of this up.
Require that college universities compensate their student athletes for the 20 hours each week they can be affiliated with the team at minimum wage a la how we all had jobs in work study. So that would be about 150 dollars a week for the kids. That is a little spending money for the athletes.

Allow the Universities to pay student athletes for signing merchandize and then have the university sell that merchandize and make the money back for paying the athletes. Then any profits generated from selling the merchandize is split 50-50 by the university and athlete.

Allow the athletes to return their Universities and receive free education if they leave the school without a degree.

The thing I dont like about splitting merchandise and holding signings for student athletes is it becomes an unfair playing field. The bigger schools, more popular schools will be able to pitch these recruits that they can make more money at a school like Ohio State then a private school like Syracuse. In the end, you would need revenue sharing, where you would total everyones merchandise and then split it but there is no way larger universities would go for that because then the bigger schools are doing more work and receiving less of a benefit than the smaller schools.

 

[Crusty]

The thing I dont like about splitting merchandise and holding signings for student athletes is it becomes an unfair playing field. The bigger schools, more popular schools will be able to pitch these recruits that they can make more money at a school like Ohio State then a private school like Syracuse. In the end, you would need revenue sharing, where you would total everyones merchandise and then split it but there is no way larger universities would go for that because then the bigger schools are doing more work and receiving less of a benefit than the smaller schools.

How is that any different than today? At least if it is out in the open we go a long way to deal with the cheats.

Moreover, in college football (and basketball) a few skill players can make all the difference. Bench warmers won't make any money so the question of playing time becomes all important and that levels the playing field.

Why should TAM be allowed to charge $20,000 to sit an Johhny Football's table at a dinner and he gets nothing? That has nothing to do with the basic bargain of play of education. It is exploitation and nothing more.

 

[Crusty]

Crusty, that is one interpretation (re: the public/private applicability). Here is the source that UCONN fans are hanging their hat on (sorry, but you have to read down a half dozen or so paragraphs if you are so inclined)...

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/29/long-road-ahead-northwestern-athletes-move-unionize

Thanks. I guess this is the sentence:

"Further, the decision precedent would also apply only to private colleges. Athletes at state universities are subject to state laws, and 24 of them do not support unions."​

Since there are 24 right-to-work states it appears that he is referencing Taft Hartley.

That simply means that the union could not be a closed shop. As a practical matter this union only needs the minimum number and the most important athletes who presumable have the most to gain by joining. I am not sure that Taft-Hartley will save public universities in this matter.

The SCOTUS has already decided that the predominant job situs controls the state law that applies. This applies to the NFL players union. You don't see anybody opting out of that union and I doubt the college players would be any different.

Looming in the background is, of course, the Anti-Trust issue. Schools recruit across state lines, have broadcast contacts and conference affiliations that also cross state line so it is clearly interstate commerce. The power grab by the P5 is going to expose them to adverse politics by the have-nots which are more numerous than the haves.

I just don't see how the NCAA/P5 paradigm is going to survive unscathed and unchanged over the next decade.

 

[Crusty]

Here is my suggestion for cleaning all of this up.
Require that college universities compensate their student athletes for the 20 hours each week they can be affiliated with the team at minimum wage a la how we all had jobs in work study. So that would be about 150 dollars a week for the kids. That is a little spending money for the athletes.

Allow the Universities to pay student athletes for signing merchandize and then have the university sell that merchandize and make the money back for paying the athletes. Then any profits generated from selling the merchandize is split 50-50 by the university and athlete.

Allow the athletes to return their Universities and receive free education if they leave the school without a degree.

That is a start. I would argue they need a bit more than that these days - how much I don't know but a bit more.

• They also need a voice on the rules making, especially safety issues.
• Representation at the conference level.
• A grievance process to deal with all the abusive idiot coaches
• Travel to and from home during holidays.
• Lifetime medical coverage for injuries suffered while playing.
• Better uniform transfer rules

This stuff is not impossible.

 

[Alsacs]

That is a start. I would argue they need a bit more than that these days - how much I don't know but a bit more.

• They also need a voice on the rules making, especially safety issues.
• Representation at the conference level.
• A grievance process to deal with all the abusive idiot coaches
  
• Travel to and from home during holidays.
  
• Lifetime medical coverage for injuries suffered while playing.
  
• Better uniform transfer rules

This stuff is not impossible.

The bold ones I am okay with. I would never give them representation at the conference level as they aren't employees. Give them some stipend money and protection, but I would never allow them to be unionized as they aren't employees.

 

[Crusty]

The bold ones I am okay with. I would never give them representation at the conference level as they aren't employees. Give them some stipend money and protection, but I would never allow them to be unionized as they aren't employees.

Items 4 and 5 are really only fair. A lot of these kids are poor and the least we can do is let them get home for the holidays to be with their families. As for medical coverage I think that is really a big issue and a simple matter of fairness.

I say representation at the conference level because that is where so many rules are made that affect them. They would be one voice not veto power.