Our offense since 2012 has become the meathead equivalent of defensive football

[Alsacs]

We made the Final Four in 2013 with an out of the world defense but since 2012 our offense has been going backwards. We are becoming totally dependent on our defense to win games.

Can someone please tell me Jim Boeheim's offensive philosophies and answer whether we are recruiting to them or are we only recruiting players for the zone and defense?

I watch teams like Iowa, Oklahoma, Villanova, UCLA, Iowa State, Creighton and I get there offensive identities. I would love to see some offense from Syracuse. We used to be among the best teams in transition and without lack of defensive rebounding that has gone away and we have become a strict half-court ISO offense which is easily defended.

We need to be good on defense I get but not to detriment of the offense. Syracuse basketball should always average atleast 70PPG with the athletes we recruit. We are sitting at 72 PPG right now I doubt we will keep the average of 70 during conference play.

 

[orangefan13]

Our isolation offensive scorers have not been good in recent years. Imo that is the problem.
Imagine if Rak had Rautins back there last year or we had Fair in the post this year.

Last year we had only rak,
This year we have only malachi.
the end of the year before we had only fair, grant to a extent and no second shooter.

on top of that no consistant 4th man this year and last, and imo cooney is a risk but he takes to much crap for all that missing. SG and one of the forward spots have the most pressure on them to score every year. That is what they are supposed to do. We lost today because they pressured the cr@p out of us and we turned the ball over. More passing motion and running around could have created more turnovers, deeper 3 balls and gave the defense more time to adjust to take a charge.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It pains me to agree with you on this, because we do play a really ugly style of basketball these days.

 

[Jack Hall]

JB has evolved into being a defensive specialist coach, no doubt about it in my mind. Hey as you said got him to FF in 2013, not bad! Hes probably pretty excited about what he can do w Pascal next year...

 

[orangefan13]

You and the isolation scoring. Malachi has one good game and everyone thinks he's in the draft again.

Our best team the past ten years relied on ball movement to win with solid guard play.

Our pg play has been horrible. Biggest reason for the crappy offense. Our bigs outside of Christmas last year struggle to finish. We would average about 10 points more per game if we made just a couple more bunnies and free throws.

We were pretty good on offense for most of 13 and 14. Kenpom had us 29th in 12-13 and 37th in 13-14 out of 350 plus teams. It's only been last year and this year we have tanked. (Below 80)

Onuaku, Rautins, Wes all had isolation skills. Scoop and KJO developed them as the season went on. Couldn't be further from the truth. We do alot of thigs in a nba style, but miss the most key ingredient the last 3 years imo.
Isolation is the same as taking your man one on one, we don't have guys who do it and finish in recent years, Anthony warrick macnamera and edelin had it on that great team.
Scoop, Dion, Joseph, and Fair had it on that great team.
Fair, MCW and to a extent Triche had it on that team with Southerland on top of it.

Teams that like to to pressure defend and play physical you beat them easier with one on one scorers, whether its off the dribble or just shooting over them from a standstill.

The team with the less pressure tends to look better as well, and one on one scorers are the key to that in tough fought games.

Even our 12-13 rick jackson senior team. rick did very little but some off the dribble, scoop did alot off the dribble, joseph and triche did some off the dribble. That team was a solid 3 seed that barely lost to marquette shot well that game played decent defense just had 5-6 more turnovers and it cost them a sweet 16 and a true top 12 rating.

The flynn, devendorf, and rautins 08-09 team did pretty good because they had both Flynn, devendorf and alittle harris to drive off the dribble.

the 25-0 team had it all when they made their jumpshots because they could attack off the dribble but tanked afterwards when they lost thier jumpers.

Its so so so important to have, and really a measure of a pro style offense.

 

[Jack Hall]

Do we not basically run the same offense that won the 03 Natl Championship, minus Carmelo now? DC is trying to set that same high pick that Forth set so well. The funny thing is Forth didnt even bother rolling to the basket ....

 

[OrangeDW]

Just look at who we've put in the NBA that's actually at minimum been a starter in the league and then look at our best teams and there's a pretty strong correlation...Melo(2003), Warrick (2003-05), Flynn (2009), Johnson(2010), Waiters (2012), MCW(2013). We get the most out of our NBA talents and when we have them our offense works because we let those guys shine and don't restrict them with our system.

But when we don't have the talent, it can be a struggle. If we do have a good NBA contributor on this team, it's a freshman that's not quite there yet.

 

[Ghost]

You absolutely cannot run out the guards we run out there over the past three years.

Ennis was decent enough, but more of a game manager. Otherwise, no clue what we've been doing with the roster/rotations/etc...

We have a SF playing PG this year instead of Howard, and a shooting guard that has no strengths. Solid enough, but does nothing well outside of shoot (and people will debate that).

 

[Jack Hall]

Imo our best ball movement offense was '10 in the last decade. Thats because AR and Wes really werent great iso players. They were great at finishing off ball movement imo, esp that AR jumper. Wes was tremendous in transition. Unfortunately that team became too iso against Butler Imo. Not a big iso fan, would much rather watch the Spurs...

 

[OrangeDW]

Imo our best ball movement offense was '10 in the last decade. Thats because AR and Wes really werent great iso players. They were great at finishing off ball movement imo, esp that AR jumper. Wes was tremendous in transition. Unfortunately that team became too iso against Butler Imo. Not a big iso fan, would much rather watch the Spurs...

Agreed, and I also think that team was also an aberration for us. We had one excellent low post scorer plus another pretty good one, a guard who could shoot the lights out and had great court vision, a stud NBA guy who was elite in transition and a 40% 3 point shooter, another future borderline NBA forward with a solid all around game, a solid freshman guard that could do a little bit of everything reasonably well, and a sparkplug guard off the bench....we just don't get that kind of balance very often.

 

[orangefan13]

Andy shot alot from standstill it wasn't catch and shoot he would pause with the ball in his hands quite often with a defender all overhim he would pullup. ao dribbled to shoot over his man over and over and over. Wes man would play off of him becuase he had what malachi has the swag blowby and the pullup to go with it, joseph we would overload the right side of the floor to clear out for him and stick either wes or andy in the left corner for the three ball and he would take the ball to the rim on his own. And scoop learned later in the season how to get and finish in the lane off his own crossover. They all knew how to score off the dribble and had a really high ppg efficiency because of it, all assist numbers aside. That was a Pro NBA style Offense and all titles records aside one of the most beautiful teams to watch this century.

These guys its Cooney gbinije dajuan roberson lydon catch and shoot right away 85% of the time and 7% is transition full or halfcourt. the other 6% might be off the dribble or a turn post up position hook. Not hating thats just what it is for now.

 

[Alsacs]

Our 2010 team was the best team we had since 2003 title team. That team was only 7 deep.
Triche, Rautins, Johnson, Jackson, Onuaku started. We had 2 deadly 3 point shooters, Triche was good that year and 2 bigs who post and score. They could rebound and get transition baskets and transition open 3 point looks.
Then we could sub in Scoop for anybody and slide Rautins up to the 3, Johnson to the 4, and either big to the 5. Could sub in Joseph for any Forward.

Then the 8th guy was I think Southerland, 9th guy was Dash Riley, 10th guy was Mookie.

That team was perfect. Just so balanced and had so many interchangeable lineups because of the players.

 

[MikeSU02]

We made the Final Four in 2013 with an out of the world defense but since 2012 our offense has been going backwards. We are becoming totally dependent on our defense to win games.

Can someone please tell me Jim Boeheim's offensive philosophies and answer whether we are recruiting to them or are we only recruiting players for the zone and defense?

I watch teams like Iowa, Oklahoma, Villanova, UCLA, Iowa State, Creighton and I get there offensive identities. I would love to see some offense from Syracuse. We used to be among the best teams in transition and without lack of defensive rebounding that has gone away and we have become a strict half-court ISO offense which is easily defended.

We need to be good on defense I get but not to detriment of the offense. Syracuse basketball should always average atleast 70PPG with the athletes we recruit. We are sitting at 72 PPG right now I doubt we will keep the average of 70 during conference play.

Recruiting for the zone and ongoing PG issues.

That's besides the fact that our offense isn't exactly breaking new barriers.

 

[Jack Hall]

I felt like destroying the entire bar i was sitting at during my 3 hr lunch break when AO went down w that unfortunate (tragic?) injury...

 

[Jack Hall]

Andy shot alot from standstill it wasn't catch and shoot he would pause with the ball in his hands quite often with a defender all overhim he would pullup. ao dribbled to shoot over his man over and over and over. Wes man would play off of him becuase he had what malachi has the swag blowby and the pullup to go with it, joseph we would overload the right side of the floor to clear out for him and stick either wes or andy in the left corner for the three ball and he would take the ball to the rim on his own. And scoop learned later in the season how to get and finish in the lane off his own crossover. They all knew how to score off the dribble and had a really high ppg efficiency because of it, all assist numbers aside.

These guys its Cooney gbinije dajuan roberson lydon catch and shoot right away 85% of the time and 7% is transition full or halfcourt. the other 6% might be off the dribble or a turn post up position hook. Not hating thats just what it is for now.

This team could be a decent iso team imo but it all starts w spacing floor and hitting 3 pter first. Once they did that for example against Ucon and texam , those teams had to extend on us, then we could set hi pick (or not even bother) and drive it quickly into open lane. TC , G and Mal are all decent drivers but not quite good enough to beat double teams in lane imo

So basically, imo this team needs to be a very good ball movement team FIRST before they have any chance at being a good iso team...

 

[orangefan13]

agree there is some potential. Gbinije is getting there the more he drives. Opponents might try to play off him more so he can pullup and vice versa.
Lydon has shown glimpses with his post up hook and fake three driveby recently but he doesn't do it alot.
Richardson only question is will he be on and off as the year goes on as far as finishing the shot.

Howard shows alittle bit but he won't be ready for the faster games yet. Kaleb has the blowby but the shot isn't there.
Roberson, dajuan I just don't see the post up yet, although roberson had a pretty darn good game against pitt.
Cooney even when you overplay him he still needs to make his dribble pullup or layup.

Teams will pack the paint against our drive all year though and draw charges. Its not just one on one ball you got to have some on the perimeter and some inside as well.

 

[Jack Hall]

Thats the problem w the iso offense, it takes a very special player like Carmelo or Dion to finish in a congested lane. Even Dion struggled to finish in a packed in lane against OSU/Sullinger...

 

[orangefan13]

agree but that team was in the elite 8 without fab melo and got there on offense not on defense in the round of 16.
thats much better then our usual sweet 16's.
they also outshot osu from outside and from the field, and only had 3 losses on the season.

got to have atleast one one on one scorer inside and out to have a true pro style offensive look.

 

[Jack Hall]

agree but that team was in the elite 8 without fab melo and got there on offense not on defense in the round of 16.
thats much better then our usual sweet 16's.
got to have atleast one isolation in and out to have a true pro style offensive look.

See i agree w you and thats why i never quite thought the 12 team would win it all- we never really had an iso Inside player to run a pro set or whatever you want to call it. Imo Fab wasnt quite there. Fab or not teams were going to pack the paint against us like OSU did and that was going to be a problem eventually, esp if we met uk. The 2010 team on the otherhand should have won it all imo. Imo JB was closer to 3 titles than historians outside of SU will realize...

 

[orangefan13]

great point!
No consistant 4th scorer makes it tough this year and last as well.

 

[orangefan13]

I felt like destroying the entire bar i was sitting at during my 3 hr lunch break when AO went down w that unfortunate (tragic?) injury...

I was yelling at my tv hard screaming put AO in try to win the game. Sure enough 2 minutes later.
:bang:

 

[NKR1978]

I don't blame the staff for recruiting misses and guys leaving earlier than expected. My issues are the focus on recruiting for the zone instead of just recruit great players. I don't think Jonny Flynn would have fit what we've recruited for the last several years. I also have grown wearily of the all Cuse coaching staff. In JB's biography he talked about the Syracuse Way. The teams that are most successful right now do not play like we do. Fresh ideas and an outside perspective wouldn't be the worst thing.

These last two years I've gone from loving game day to wishing I didn't feel a compulsion to watch. Though when things looked pretty bleak at the end of the 2008 season we went on a pretty incredible 6 year run. It makes sense that we would face some tough times for a couple years. It's just depressing because I think the 07 and 08 teams would beat these last two by 15.

 

[Jack Hall]

I was yelling at my tv hard screaming put AO in try to win the game. Sure enough 2 minutes later.
:bang:

See thats where im a little different. I was actually thinking get some guys out, and i dont normally think that way. I didnt care about the gtown game. I just wanted to win the big title. I remembered all too well we didnt win the BET in '03...

 

[OrangeDW]

I don't blame the staff for recruiting misses and guys leaving earlier than expected. My issues are the focus on recruiting for the zone instead of just recruit great players. I don't think Jonny Flynn would have fit what we've recruited for the last several years. I also have grown wearily of the all Cuse coaching staff. In JB's biography. He talked about the Syracuse Way. The teams that are most successful right now do play like we do. A new idea and outside perspective wouldn't be the worst thing.

These last two years I've gone from loving game day to wishing I didn't feel a compulsion to watch these games. Though when things looked pretty bleak at the end of the 2008 season we went on a pretty incredible 6 year run. It makes sense that we would face some tough times for a couple years. It's just depressing because I think the 07 and 08 teams would beat these last two by 15.

2007, maybe. That team wasn't bad and should've been in the NCAA's. 2008 though? No. That team couldn't stop anybody and did so many dumb things. Big picture though, we knew Rautins and Devendorf were out hurt and that team would've been able to outscore some more teams with those 2 healthy, so it wasn't overly concerning.

 

[Jack Hall]

2007, maybe. That team wasn't bad and should've been in the NCAA's. 2008 though? No. That team couldn't stop anybody and did so many dumb things. Big picture though, we knew Rautins and Devendorf were out hurt and that team would've been able to outscore some more teams with those 2 healthy, so it wasn't overly concerning.

Big picture this year to next, can Battle/FH play the point at a high enough level (ie like GMac/Edelin) and does DC come back to back up Pascal?? I dont see why not! Go Cuse!