Our offense since 2012 has become the meathead equivalent of defensive football

[OrangeDW]

Big picture this year to next, can Battle/FH play the point at a high enough level (ie like GMac/Edelin) and does DC come back to back up Pascal?? I dont see why not! Go Cuse!

Based on limited impressions, I have a good feeling about Howard. I like his game.

I have no idea on Battle, but I tend to think a guy that highly rated will at least be pretty good.

Really hope Coleman comes back and that we can have some quality depth for once. He may not be what we hoped he'd be as a local recruit and McD's AA, but I still like him for what he is...a hard working kid who tries hard and rebounds pretty well.

 

[OrangeFoo]

We made the Final Four in 2013 with an out of the world defense but since 2012 our offense has been going backwards. We are becoming totally dependent on our defense to win games.

Can someone please tell me Jim Boeheim's offensive philosophies and answer whether we are recruiting to them or are we only recruiting players for the zone and defense?

I watch teams like Iowa, Oklahoma, Villanova, UCLA, Iowa State, Creighton and I get there offensive identities. I would love to see some offense from Syracuse. We used to be among the best teams in transition and without lack of defensive rebounding that has gone away and we have become a strict half-court ISO offense which is easily defended.

We need to be good on defense I get but not to detriment of the offense. Syracuse basketball should always average atleast 70PPG with the athletes we recruit. We are sitting at 72 PPG right now I doubt we will keep the average of 70 during conference play.

It's not just since 2012... We've been more often than not a below average offensive team since at least the turn of the century. Here are the stats to prove it stolen from a different post I made:

SU PPG SU PPG Ranking
2001 - 2002 73.7 111
2002 - 2003 80 14
2003 - 2004 73 90
2004 - 2005 75.5 36
2005 - 2006 72.9 90
2006 - 2007 75.5 52
2007 - 2008 78.5 25
2008 - 2009 81.8 8
2009 - 2010 81.5 6
2010 - 2011 73 60
2011 - 2012 74 39
2012 - 2013 71.3 80
2013 - 2014 68 253
2014 - 2015 68 170
2015 - 2016 72 209

9 out of 15 years we've ranked outside of the top 50 in terms of points per game and I bet if you look at data from the 90s our ranking is going to be even worse. The trend since the turn of the decade has been quite alarming. I think this data backs up my original point which is that the identity our program is defense not offense and I for one would like to see it change because I don't think you can win titles as a defense team. Basically our strategy is to always have a solid D, fit players to that D and then find one or two good offensive players to get output. I don't think this strategy will work in the ACC... there are too many good coaches and good players. We need to go back to developing solid offensive depth and backing that up with the D not the other way around. Luckily this year seems to be the start of the strategy with putting 4 "shooters" on the court, unfortunately we've no developed so many players the last few years offensively and we've had losses that have prevented us from seeing the benefits of that strategy.

 

[SWC75]

I think the big problem has been the personnel losses, which deprived us of much of our balance. We either have a good inside scorer with no outside game or a good outside game with no inside scorer. The lack of a point guard has been discussed. So have the what ifs with Ennis, Grant, McCullugh, etc.

I still like Lydon in the high post but we obviously don't teach that here and won't in mid-season.

 

[Cheriehoop]

We made the Final Four in 2013 with an out of the world defense but since 2012 our offense has been going backwards. We are becoming totally dependent on our defense to win games.

Can someone please tell me Jim Boeheim's offensive philosophies and answer whether we are recruiting to them or are we only recruiting players for the zone and defense?

I watch teams like Iowa, Oklahoma, Villanova, UCLA, Iowa State, Creighton and I get there offensive identities. I would love to see some offense from Syracuse. We used to be among the best teams in transition and without lack of defensive rebounding that has gone away and we have become a strict half-court ISO offense which is easily defended.

We need to be good on defense I get but not to detriment of the offense. Syracuse basketball should always average atleast 70PPG with the athletes we recruit. We are sitting at 72 PPG right now I doubt we will keep the average of 70 during conference play.

Sorry but I think the exact opposite has been true. Our offense has become more and more stagnant since around 2010 and we're relying too much on excellent defense to keep us in games.

Year Ave Offense Ave Defense
2015 67.6 63.4
2014 68.0 59.2
2013 70.4 58.7
2012 74.1 61.0
2011 73.4 63.3
2010 80.9 66.4
2009 80.2 71.7
2003 79.6 69.6

 

[STEVEHOLT]

It's not just since 2012... We've been more often than not a below average offensive team since at least the turn of the century. Here are the stats to prove it stolen from a different post I made:

SU PPG SU PPG Ranking
2001 - 2002 73.7 111
2002 - 2003 80 14
2003 - 2004 73 90
2004 - 2005 75.5 36
2005 - 2006 72.9 90
2006 - 2007 75.5 52
2007 - 2008 78.5 25
2008 - 2009 81.8 8
2009 - 2010 81.5 6
2010 - 2011 73 60
2011 - 2012 74 39
2012 - 2013 71.3 80
2013 - 2014 68 253
2014 - 2015 68 170
2015 - 2016 72 209

9 out of 15 years we've ranked outside of the top 50 in terms of points per game and I bet if you look at data from the 90s our ranking is going to be even worse. The trend since the turn of the decade has been quite alarming. I think this data backs up my original point which is that the identity our program is defense not offense and I for one would like to see it change because I don't think you can win titles as a defense team. Basically our strategy is to always have a solid D, fit players to that D and then find one or two good offensive players to get output. I don't think this strategy will work in the ACC... there are too many good coaches and good players. We need to go back to developing solid offensive depth and backing that up with the D not the other way around. Luckily this year seems to be the start of the strategy with putting 4 "shooters" on the court, unfortunately we've no developed so many players the last few years offensively and we've had losses that have prevented us from seeing the benefits of that strategy.

looking at ppg numbers is a fairly blunt instrument with regards to how good an offense you are running. Fact of the matter is, playing zone makes the opposition take alot of time off the clock before shooting, and it also contributes to opponents getting offensive rebounds, thus further limiting our overall possession numbers. we simply get out shot alot.

 

[orangefan13]

agree.

Teams have taken the air out of the ball against the zone more in the last 5-6 years then ever that will lead to less ppg. I consider 09-10 the turning point for that. Of course the extra 5 seconds off the shot clock over a 40 minute period leads to about 4-5 more possessions a game as well.

Percentages fg attempts (factoring in freethrows) and keeping the turnovers down matter 10x more then ppg ratios.

If we don't give up transition points, suck at transition, have little depth, turnover the ball alot, tire out at the end of games, and get bullied around physically(with no whistles 40 feet from the basket), that is more reason for opponents to allow us more ppg. And all of those things pretty much won it for miami yesterday.

 

[br801]

Sorry but I think the exact opposite has been true. Our offense has become more and more stagnant since around 2010 and we're relying too much on excellent defense to keep us in games.

Year Ave Offense Ave Defense
2015 67.6 63.4
2014 68.0 59.2
2013 70.4 58.7
2012 74.1 61.0
2011 73.4 63.3
2010 80.9 66.4
2009 80.2 71.7
2003 79.6 69.6

Say what you want about the raw offensive numbers, it's the point differential that jumps out. To me, that says this season's defense (and defensive rebounding is a big element here) falls far short of past editions. As we move through the conference schedule, that differential will likely shrink. It's conceivable this team will wind up being outscored for the season. Ouch.

 

[Alsacs]

Sorry but I think the exact opposite has been true. Our offense has become more and more stagnant since around 2010 and we're relying too much on excellent defense to keep us in games.

Year Ave Offense Ave Defense
2015 67.6 63.4
2014 68.0 59.2
2013 70.4 58.7
2012 74.1 61.0
2011 73.4 63.3
2010 80.9 66.4
2009 80.2 71.7
2003 79.6 69.6

2011 offense had Rick Jackson who could post and score, Kris Joseph who could drive and get us points and Scoop/Triche in the backcourt with freshman Dion Waiters. That offense was fine. I would take that offense all day over any offense we have had since 2012.
2012 we had no Rick Jackson but had Dion Waiters become an almost unstoppable college player when he made his leap. 2012 team no post offense I would agree but the defense improvements from Fab Melo and Rak Christmas made up for no Jackson. Plus Seniors Scoop and Joseph got us a lot of buckets.

Our offense since 2012 has been as you shown 4-7 points per game worse and is really troubling. Recruiting strictly to the zone shouldn't be the priority as NKR described Jonny Flynn wasn't a fit for the zone but his talent made up for it. We need some offensive recruits and not 100% fits for the zone.

 

[orangefan13]

Joseph, Scoop, Rick and Triche could all score alittle off the Dribble as could Dion some. They also handled the physical nature pretty well for a couple of freshmen in Fair and Keita.

That Team really was three-four turnovers away from beating marquette and going to the sweet 16. The offense that game was probably better then marquettes actually. 4-5 more turnovers and marquette shooting something around 19-22 from the line cost us.

 

[CusefanATL]

Our isolation offensive scorers have not been good in recent years. Imo that is the problem.
Imagine if Rak had Rautins back there last year or we had Fair in the post this year.

Last year we had only rak,
This year we have only malachi.
the end of the year before we had only fair, grant to a extent and no second shooter.

on top of that no consistant 4th man this year and last, and imo cooney is a risk but he takes to much crap for all that missing. SG and one of the forward spots have the most pressure on them to score every year. That is what they are supposed to do. We lost today because they pressured the cr@p out of us and we turned the ball over. More passing motion and running around could have created more turnovers, deeper 3 balls and gave the defense more time to adjust to take a charge.

"This year we have only Malachi"

not based on the whole season, we dont.

 

[orangefan13]

"This year we have only Malachi"

not based on the whole season, we dont.

Hope your right but that sounds like wishful thinking

92% of our shots from everyone not named malachi have been catch and shoot the other 8% haven't.
A big part of that is us torching cooney he was a isolation pull up guy last year this year he hasn't been.

And as hopeful as we are for next year, it could be just as ugly. Without Malachi on nights without whistles our offense could be worse then what we have seen this year so far. No Joke.
Who is going to step up roberson or joseph? Odds are just as bad as this year they don't. Their issues don't point to not being ready, but more towards lacking the skills to ever be imo. Not saying its not possible but it would be a blindside jump.

Lydon I just don't see as a isolation guy unless in the midpost and we will already have Chuckwu down there. But hes a freshmen his release isn't the quickest and he doesn't shoot jumpshots one on one yet.
Battle Moyer or Howard maybe.

You look back at the last 20 years and the better syracuse teams have guys that convert buckets off the dribble. We simply haven't had the horses to do that last year and so far this year. You can thank the ncaa some for that this year with the scholarship ridiculousness.

One thing we did well on that 25-0 team three years ago was pound the ball inside, last year we did not outside of Rak who was more in the midpost then near the rim. Agree if I had to guess this years team actually has more potential to do so imo.

 

[AZOrange]

Say what you want about the raw offensive numbers, it's the point differential that jumps out. To me, that says this season's defense (and defensive rebounding is a big element here) falls far short of past editions. As we move through the conference schedule, that differential will likely shrink. It's conceivable this team will wind up being outscored for the season. Ouch.

Don't say that too loud around here. Lots of folks think we've been playing good defense.

 

[Flacusian]

A lot of valid points have been made in this thread. For me it all boils down to this. We need to recruit better players and more of them.

When you consistently have squads that essentially only have 6 or 7 guys who at that point in time can play at the level of ACC conference play you are going to find yourself really thin on the bench and lacking options to deal with situations which arise in games.

There are many reasons we find ourselves struggling this season and some of those reasons have seemingly become embedded in the program itself. If we have a big who can contribute for us we don't have any shooters. When we supposedly have shooters we don't have any presence down low and we don't rebound. Much if not all of the success Syracuse has is reliant on having the right type of players to fill the roles of the Boeheim 3-2 zone. We currently do not have the right mix of players to operate the zone in the manner in which it needs to be run.

Yesterdays effort was actually quite amazing in the 1st half, the way we limited the #13 team on offense. But upon closer inspection it was because Miami missed a remarkable amount of shots. After the halftime adjustment our defense was as porous as a sieve and on offense it was a clinic on what not to do with turnovers, sloppy play, and complete lack of offensive strategy.

It is what it is and Boeheims return, although it will help somewhat, it won't be a panacea for the host of problems this team has right now. And frankly, I don't see it getting better until we get a few more good players on the team and can stop the bleeding resultant from the complete disparity in rebounding.

 

[OrangeFoo]

looking at ppg numbers is a fairly blunt instrument with regards to how good an offense you are running. Fact of the matter is, playing zone makes the opposition take alot of time off the clock before shooting, and it also contributes to opponents getting offensive rebounds, thus further limiting our overall possession numbers. we simply get out shot alot.

The point of basketball is to score more points. If teams are taking the air out of the ball isn't it our team's job to somehow increase the pace? Instead our coach has decided that he's cool with low scoring games and relying on his D which was the entire point of the original post, we basically have no offensive identity anymore because we rely so much on our D to win games. When you play the brand of ball we do you will not win a title most years because you have very little margin for error. The one year we won it, it was because our offense was reall good and our D good enough.

 

[CusefanATL]

Don't say that too loud around here. Lots of folks think we've been playing good defense.

Yep.

In there defense though, they are talking defense as in a very literal sense of the word defense as in the opposing team is having a tough time scoring baskets on their 1st shot of possession in half court offense which is true.

The point they are missing is that defense in its entirety (and really the only important state) means flipping possessions. And that we have been unable to do. We have to be near an all time low of fast break points and certainly an all time low at defensive rebounds for this point of season.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Say what you want about the raw offensive numbers, it's the point differential that jumps out. To me, that says this season's defense (and defensive rebounding is a big element here) falls far short of past editions. As we move through the conference schedule, that differential will likely shrink. It's conceivable this team will wind up being outscored for the season. Ouch.

The pace of play is a bigger problem than the efficiency of the offense. I know it looks like we weren't great on offense from 11-14 compared to 2010, but that was more because of the pace of play than anything else. I know the last two years we have been rather average on offense, but the other years we were actually rather efficient. Part of the issue is teams attack the zone rather late in the clock, and part of that is our passive defense that waits for things to happen. We have stopped running like we used to.

Part of that is the lack of development at the point guard position. Our four best players are either wing forwards or two guards. We have always had a pg be one of our best players. Joseph being a bust has killed us. There is no way around it. I think Cooney, Mal, and Gbinije would all be better suited having a legit pg get the ball to them in good scoring position. We were lucky that we didn't miss on pg's for years with the exception of Josh Wright. From Gmac to Ennis he is the only pg we missed on. The sanctions, coupled with poor play from Joseph has killed us on the offensive end of the court.

 

[SoBeCuse]

A lot of valid points have been made in this thread. For me it all boils down to this. We need to recruit better players and more of them.

When you consistently have squads that essentially only have 6 or 7 guys who at that point in time can play at the level of ACC conference play you are going to find yourself really thin on the bench and lacking options to deal with situations which arise in games.

There are many reasons we find ourselves struggling this season and some of those reasons have seemingly become embedded in the program itself. If we have a big who can contribute for us we don't have any shooters. When we supposedly have shooters we don't have any presence down low and we don't rebound. Much if not all of the success Syracuse has is reliant on having the right type of players to fill the roles of the Boeheim 3-2 zone. We currently do not have the right mix of players to operate the zone in the manner in which it needs to be run.

Yesterdays effort was actually quite amazing in the 1st half, the way we limited the #13 team on offense. But upon closer inspection it was because Miami missed a remarkable amount of shots. After the halftime adjustment our defense was as porous as a sieve and on offense it was a clinic on what not to do with turnovers, sloppy play, and complete lack of offensive strategy.

It is what it is and Boeheims return, although it will help somewhat, it won't be a panacea for the host of problems this team has right now. And frankly, I don't see it getting better until we get a few more good players on the team and can stop the bleeding resultant from the complete disparity in rebounding.

Very good post.

 

[kirbivore]

I think the big problem has been the personnel losses, which deprived us of much of our balance. We either have a good inside scorer with no outside game or a good outside game with no inside scorer. The lack of a point guard has been discussed. So have the what ifs with Ennis, Grant, McCullugh, etc.

I still like Lydon in the high post but we obviously don't teach that here and won't in mid-season.

Lydon would have killed it on calhoun's storz teams

 

[orangefan13]

Lydon would have killed it on calhoun's storz teams

If he got open. Takes guys to score off the dribble to create that.

 

[AlaskaSU]

For the most part, Rebounding is what is killing us.

 

[SWC75]

For the most part, Rebounding is what is killing us.

It was even in the last game and we lost by 13.

 

[Brooky03]

Talent. That's probably about as deep as we need to dig.

 

[Jasoncuse]

For the most part, Rebounding is what is killing us.

Rebounding, guard penetration, lack of forced turnovers leading to points, no transition game whatsoever, etc. It's more than just rebounding, even if the PPG allowed # doesn't look that bad yet.

 

[Knicks411]

The pace of play is a bigger problem than the efficiency of the offense. I know it looks like we weren't great on offense from 11-14 compared to 2010, but that was more because of the pace of play than anything else. I know the last two years we have been rather average on offense, but the other years we were actually rather efficient. Part of the issue is teams attack the zone rather late in the clock, and part of that is our passive defense that waits for things to happen. We have stopped running like we used to.

100% agree. You just can't look at the raw point totals without adjusting for pace.

 

[Alsacs]

The 2011 and 2012 offenses had the transition offense to go with the halfcourt offense.
Scoop was great at leading the offense in transition.

Our pace got slower in 2013 and 2014. Last year we were one of the 5 slowest teams in the nation.