Class of 2017 PG Tremont Waters (CT) to LSU

[SUOrangeSU]

We are all in on Ayala. Howard, Ayala and battle as the three guards. No 5th year guys.

and if he doesn't reclassify? 5th year?

 

[Jasoncuse]

We are all in on Ayala. Howard, Ayala and battle as the three guards. No 5th year guys.

That's terrifying.

We hope Ayala will reclassify and come here, but he's still a combo guard and a freshman who may or may not be ready to contribute immediately.

Frank, who is not a good player, will be our only "point guard"? He's not good enough to be the only PG on a roster.

I really hope the 5th year market is not being avoided for PG. We need the help.

 

[SUFan44]

We have no shot of landing this kid. Partly because we won't even try to go after him.

I have zero inside information and would love to be proved wrong, but I won't be.

I do not stand corrected.

 

[HOFCeluck]

We are all in on Ayala. Howard, Ayala and battle as the three guards. No 5th year guys.

Oh come on.

 

[dasher]

Oh come on.

Sad but true. As of today anyway.

 

[Deano]

Oh come on.

I agree. I'll take 2 out of 3 and give you one guess who I really don't want out of that bunch.

 

[JDubbin]

We are all in on Ayala. Howard, Ayala and battle as the three guards. No 5th year guys.

I don't know if you did this purposely or not, but we do also have Howard Washington on the roster too. Yes, I know he's considered a lower talent level and was not highly recruited, and will not get a ton of meaningful minutes next season, but I think he's solid overall and it's nice to have him available if we end up in a bind.

 

[dasher]

I don't know if you did this purposely or not, but we do also have Howard Washington on the roster too. Yes, I know he's considered a lower talent level and was not highly recruited, and will not get a ton of meaningful minutes next season, but I think he's solid overall and it's nice to have him available if we end up in a bind.

Not on purpose. You are correct.

 

[RF2044]

I don't know if you did this purposely or not, but we do also have Howard Washington on the roster too. Yes, I know he's considered a lower talent level and was not highly recruited, and will not get a ton of meaningful minutes next season, but I think he's solid overall and it's nice to have him available if we end up in a bind.

Agree 100%. Unlikely that Washington would see much time NEXT year. If Howard returns and we land Ayala, then I'd envision those three comprising the backcourt rotation, in various combinations where they could all play with any of the others.

But I wouldn't be surprised to see Washington crack the rotation as a sophomore, and maybe even round into a starter as an upperclassman. Or alternatively, he just provides quality depth throughout his career, playing more as his career unfolds. Nothing wrong if that's how things work out. In college basketball, you can never have enough quality guards, and we've lacked point guard depth since 2013. That shouldn't be the case.

 

[SUOrangeSU]

Ugh lock up Ayala and a 5th year pg, please cuse!!!

 

[OrangeDW]

We are all in on Ayala. Howard, Ayala and battle as the three guards. No 5th year guys.

 

[pearl31]

we're absolutely fine w Ayala and Washington.
no Ayala? then, no, not good

much more concerned with the SF situation and with shooting in general for the 17-18 squad

 

[orangefog]

we're absolutely fine w Ayala and Washington.
no Ayala? then, no, not good

much more concerned with the SF situation and with shooting in general for the 17-18 squad

Yep, me too

 

[SUFan44]

We are all in on Ayala. Howard, Ayala and battle as the three guards. No 5th year guys.

Good. Don't want 5th years anymore to be honest. Would rather a true transfer kid come in.

I know I'll get killed because we wouldn't have been any good without Gillon & White - and I agree. I'm just saying, I don't think it's a winning strategy.

 

[dasher]

Good. Don't want 5th years anymore to be honest. Would rather a true transfer kid come in.

I know I'll get killed because we wouldn't have been any good without Gillon & White - and I agree. I'm just saying, I don't think it's a winning strategy.

Louisville has done all right with them.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I get nervous now hearing that the staff could be "all in" on somebody. Not again!

I still want an actual PG. I don't care from where. Maybe Washington's learning curve ends up being really fast. I just don't want Howard handed the keys to the bus. Not even factoring the other stuff; I can't think of a guy ever at SU who's game I don't like as much as Howard's. Including Kaleb Joseph. Everything from ability to court demeanor. Not good.

 

[OrangeDW]

I would be thrilled to get Ayala. I'm happy we have Washington coming in. I love Battle.

I don't have a lot of faith in Howard as the starting PG. I do think he could probably be a nice 3rd guard next year, but he wasn't even that this past season. Going from largely unproductive 3rd guard to a good starting PG in one offseason would be a huge jump. It's just hard to see right now.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Good. Don't want 5th years anymore to be honest. Would rather a true transfer kid come in.

I know I'll get killed because we wouldn't have been any good without Gillon & White - and I agree. I'm just saying, I don't think it's a winning strategy.

I think the losing strategy was getting zero production out of three (four?) long-term players and trying to get, essentially, four new faces to learn the complex SU zone in very short order. Most of JB's freshman barely see the court because they aren't adept at the defense and last year, of the six best players, only one had played SU's zone before and he was a sophomore.

 

[jordoo]

I would be thrilled to get Ayala. I'm happy we have Washington coming in. I love Battle.

I don't have a lot of faith in Howard as the starting PG. I do think he could probably be a nice 3rd guard next year, but he wasn't even that this past season. Going from largely unproductive 3rd guard to a good starting PG in one offseason would be a huge jump. It's just hard to see right now.

This is exactly where I stand. I don't care if Howard is back that's for him and the staff to decide. I just don't like going into the season having a guy who was a bad PG last year, a freshman combo guard and a freshman PG, who is expected to need time to develop, as our only options at PG.

 

[RF2044]

I think the losing strategy was getting zero production out of three (four?) long-term players and trying to get, essentially, four new faces to learn the complex SU zone in very short order. Most of JB's freshman barely see the court because they aren't adept at the defense and last year, of the six best players, only one had played SU's zone before and he was a sophomore.

Agree on both counts. I think many have taken the interpretation that White / Gillon not being great zone defenders is causal evidence that 5th year transfers won't play well in the zone, and thus we need to avoid bringing them in for that reason. I don't believe that to be the case.

Last year's epically poor defense was a systemic breakdown from all personnel [Lydon might have been the best of a sorry lot, which isn't saying much]. Gillon / White not being great defenders didn't help, but they weren't the cause necessarily. Your observation about getting close to zero production from several experienced players who were being counted upon heading into the season to play major minutes is astute. But even guys who on paper were experienced with the zone like Frank [who is an awful defender, despite being 6-4] and Roberson [tools never translated to him being a good zone defender] wouldn't have improved the defense much if they'd played more.

 

[chugg21]

Think I'm the same as everyone in hoping for Ayala over a 5th year guy. Don't really have high hopes for next year as I can't imagine we'll be more than the frustrating 18-19 win team that we have been the past few years regardless of who we end up with to close out this class. I understand the grad transfers don't hurt our future schollie situation as they come in and leave but I'm more looking towards the 18-19 season and hoping we develop the freshman we already have signed and the 1 or 2 we are still hoping for. I just think that squad is the next one that is going to get us back to the top 25. We should have depth and experience everywhere. Howard/Howard combo at PG, hopefully a Soph Ayala at SG, Soph Bris and hopefully Soph Tucker at SF, Jr Thompson, RS-Soph Moyer, Soph Sidibe & Senior Chukwu up front. Hopefully can mix in Wright after a year spent at Prep and one of the elite guards that we're going after.

 

[SUFan44]

I think the losing strategy was getting zero production out of three (four?) long-term players and trying to get, essentially, four new faces to learn the complex SU zone in very short order. Most of JB's freshman barely see the court because they aren't adept at the defense and last year, of the six best players, only one had played SU's zone before and he was a sophomore.

That's a very fair point. I agree with most of that. But I still think there are deficiencies with this model, especially with a team that lacks any sort of depth. L'Ville's teams always have depth and they did two years ago.

There's no margin for a learning curve, as we saw this year. It took White & Gillon a good 2 months before they felt comfortable in the system. And by then, it took a miracle run during the ACC season to even be on the bubble.

We also play a completely different system than anyone else. Our zone takes time to learn (as you say in your post). If you're playing two guys 40 minutes a game that have never played your defense before, you're asking for trouble.

Maybe I should clarify my post a little bit - I don't want 5th year transfers anymore in the roles that were subscribed to White/Gillon. I'd be happy if a kid could come in and help us as a scorer or a distributor or a rebounder. But if you need your 5th year guys to be everything that SU needed Gillon & White to be, its a losing proposition in my opinion.

 

[RF2044]

I get nervous now hearing that the staff could be "all in" on somebody. Not again!

I still want an actual PG. I don't care from where. Maybe Washington's learning curve ends up being really fast. I just don't want Howard handed the keys to the bus. Not even factoring the other stuff; I can't think of a guy ever at SU who's game I don't like as much as Howard's. Including Kaleb Joseph. Everything from ability to court demeanor. Not good.

When we lost out on Quade Green -- which was a devastating blow for the staff -- they quickly regrouped and focused upon Ayala as the fall back option [it was too late to try to get back involved with Coleman, Washington, etc.]. This was a creative approach, because it would require Ayala to reclassify [which was no sure thing] and qualify a year earlier than expected.

It seems like we're all in on Ayala. The staff believes that they are in a strongly favorable position to land him. I wish we would have pursued Waters, too, because blue chip point guards don't grow on trees. And I don't think that Ayala is a real point guard -- he's a combo who can handle and pass a bit, and I believe that the staff believes that with Battle being the focal point of the offense, that the ball will be in his hands a lot and the two in tandem will be adequate. Time will tell.

What we really need to have happen is for Howard to take this year as a learning experience and step up. If he does that, Battle makes the jump we all expect, and Ayala is talented enough to play, then we'll have some nice components in the back court to work with.

 

[Cusefan0307]

What I took from Dasher's post is it is inevitable that Frank is going to be the starting PG.

 

[jordoo]

What we really need to have happen is for Howard to take this year as a learning experience and step up. If he does that, Battle makes the jump we all expect, and Ayala is talented enough to play, then we'll have some nice components in the back court to work with.

I agree with this I just don't like betting the season on Howard's play at the point.