Player Development under Red

[wiCuse]

There are people campaigning for Red to get a third year. Yeah, we'd have another win or two if JJ was healthy. However, injuries are part of the game. The lack of game planning and in-game coaching has been glaring during JJ's absence (and prior). Most troubling is the team is going in the wrong direction. Players are not improving. Moore is very undisciplined. He has careless turnovers and a poor shot selection. Freeman is oozing with talent, but has no concept of help side defense and isn't very physical. I highlight Moore and Freeman because we should start seeing basic improvements in fundamental areas like shot selection or help side defense by now if they're getting coach properly.

Shouldn't the lack of player development be the biggest red flag to date? I don't know how we recruit anyone that has pro aspirations if they watch this team. More NIL money only gives us comfortable wins vs low DI teams. We'll continue to get outcoached in all other areas. Please tell me I'm wrong.

 

[hoopsupstate]

There are people campaigning for Red to get a third year. Yeah, we'd have another win or two if JJ was healthy. However, injuries are part of the game. The lack of game planning and in-game coaching has been glaring during JJ's absence (and prior). Most troubling is the team is going in the wrong direction. Players are not improving. Moore is very undisciplined. He has careless turnovers and a poor shot selection. Freeman is oozing with talent, but has no concept of help side defense and isn't very physical. I highlight Moore and Freeman because we should start seeing basic improvements in fundamental areas like shot selection or help side defense by now if they're getting coach properly.

Shouldn't the lack of player development be the biggest red flag to date? I don't know how we recruit anyone that has pro aspirations if they watch this team. More NIL money only gives us comfortable wins vs low DI teams. We'll continue to get outcoached in all other areas. Please tell me I'm wrong.

They have both improved since the start of the season.

 

[wiCuse]

They have both improved since the start of the season.

It's pretty debatable that Moore is improving. You like his assist/turnover ratio, shot selection and defense. He certainly isn't consistent. He has a lot of upside. We should see noticeable improvement regarding fundamentals from young players game to game.

The overarching question was do you think Red develops players?

 

[chuck]

There are people campaigning for Red to get a third year. Yeah, we'd have another win or two if JJ was healthy. However, injuries are part of the game. The lack of game planning and in-game coaching has been glaring during JJ's absence (and prior). Most troubling is the team is going in the wrong direction. Players are not improving. Moore is very undisciplined. He has careless turnovers and a poor shot selection. Freeman is oozing with talent, but has no concept of help side defense and isn't very physical. I highlight Moore and Freeman because we should start seeing basic improvements in fundamental areas like shot selection or help side defense by now if they're getting coach properly.

Shouldn't the lack of player development be the biggest red flag to date? I don't know how we recruit anyone that has pro aspirations if they watch this team. More NIL money only gives us comfortable wins vs low DI teams. We'll continue to get outcoached in all other areas. Please tell me I'm wrong.

I don't think we've developed much since he's been an assistant here. That's just my opinion tho.

 

[kirbivore]

They have both improved since the start of the season.

 

[miamicuse]

Has Red developed as a coach since he joined the staff at cuse?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

There are people campaigning for Red to get a third year. Yeah, we'd have another win or two if JJ was healthy. However, injuries are part of the game. The lack of game planning and in-game coaching has been glaring during JJ's absence (and prior). Most troubling is the team is going in the wrong direction. Players are not improving. Moore is very undisciplined. He has careless turnovers and a poor shot selection. Freeman is oozing with talent, but has no concept of help side defense and isn't very physical. I highlight Moore and Freeman because we should start seeing basic improvements in fundamental areas like shot selection or help side defense by now if they're getting coach properly.

Shouldn't the lack of player development be the biggest red flag to date? I don't know how we recruit anyone that has pro aspirations if they watch this team. More NIL money only gives us comfortable wins vs low DI teams. We'll continue to get outcoached in all other areas. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Pretty difficult to assess “development” of any player. Some will just naturally improve with time/experience. Some may be at or near their peak when we get them. Then you also have to consider the context of their minutes. Moore was probably not expected to have such a significant role at this stage of his rookie year. Thrown into the fire. So, he has more responsibility, earlier, and less of a supporting cast than we hoped/expected.

Freeman certainly isn’t being utilized like I hoped or expected. It’s hard to even see what he’s supposed to be doing on offense. Just seems to be out there incidentally. I thought his skills would be easier to exploit but everything is just random….

With both, though, even under ideal circumstances, we should have expected inconsistency.

In a general sense, No—I don’t think we’ve been good at developing players. Through the last ten years or so of JB. When I think of development, I think of CJ Fair.

 

[sufandu]

There are people campaigning for Red to get a third year.

I don't think there are many campaigning for Red to get a third year. Most are saying that, due to a variety of circumstances, it is what should be expected, for better or worse.

 

[wiCuse]

I don't think there are many campaigning for Red to get a third year. Most are saying that, due to a variety of circumstances, it is what should be expected, for better or worse.

Maybe campaigning is a bit strong. The two themes I read for a third year are financial reasons and Team Melo. First, the athletic department should be able to hire an up and coming coach. Second, I understand wanting to leverage Melo. That is why I started this thread. Kiyan will not get developed properly under the current staff. Melo will not be happy.

I can look past the misses in the portal. That will happen, but the lack of identity, in-game coaching, discipline, etc is not acceptable. Hire assistants that compliment your weaknesses. That's staffing 101...

 

[sufandu]

Maybe campaigning is a bit strong. The two themes I read for a third year are financial reasons and Team Melo. First, the athletic department should be able to hire an up and coming coach. Second, I understand wanting to leverage Melo. That is why I started this thread. Kiyan will not get developed properly under the current staff. Melo will not be happy.

I can look past the misses in the portal. That will happen, but the lack of identity, in-game coaching, discipline, etc is not acceptable. Hire assistants that compliment your weaknesses. That's staffing 101...

Good points. If JW is thinking about moving on from Red it would make sense to have discussions with Melo. Usually I would think that's dumb to consult a parent, but Melo is different. It's completely justifiable to get input from a future HOFer with his name on the practice center who led you to your one NC, regardless of whether his son is signed to come here.

I can see things going either way with Red. Before the season I thought giving him three years was a nobrainer. Having watched how disorganized and low effort this team is, I can't help but be reminded of the GRob football years.

 

[kingtidge]

Pretty difficult to assess “development” of any player. Some will just naturally improve with time/experience. Some may be at or near their peak when we get them. Then you also have to consider the context of their minutes. Moore was probably not expected to have such a significant role at this stage of his rookie year. Thrown into the fire. So, he has more responsibility, earlier, and less of a supporting cast than we hoped/expected.

Freeman certainly isn’t being utilized like I hoped or expected. It’s hard to even see what he’s supposed to be doing on offense. Just seems to be out there incidentally. I thought his skills would be easier to exploit but everything is just random….

With both, though, even under ideal circumstances, we should have expected inconsistency.

In a general sense, No—I don’t think we’ve been good at developing players. Through the last ten years or so of JB. When I think of development, I think of CJ Fair.

Jesse was definitely a development win...

I would also say the same on Lydon (altho he was inherently better when he showed up on campus than I expected...)

 

[RF2044]

 

[BillSU]

Jesse was definitely a development win...

I would also say the same on Lydon (altho he was inherently better when he showed up on campus than I expected...)

Good points. If JW is thinking about moving on from Red it would make sense to have discussions with Melo. Usually I would think that's dumb to consult a parent, but Melo is different. It's completely justifiable to get input from a future HOFer with his name on the practice center who led you to your one NC, regardless of whether his son is signed to come here.

I can see things going either way with Red. Before the season I thought giving him three years was a nobrainer. Having watched how disorganized and low effort this team is, I can't help but be reminded of the GRob football years.

I believe JW consulting with Melo is a must and an excellent idea. Melo knows who is out there and may know someone we don't who would be a great fit.

Last night I looked at the list of coaches put up in another thread. I saw that most were assistants with no real experience as a HC.

It looked to me like schools hire coaches to improve on the previous coaches really bad records - year one try and correct the bad record 10-20, year two was improved 20 -10, year three if not 25 - 15 the coach was gone.

Again, talking to Melo is a must.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Jesse was definitely a development win...

I would also say the same on Lydon (altho he was inherently better when he showed up on campus than I expected...)

Jesse definitely did improve, but… the things he did later were the same things he showed flashes of as a freshman. He just seemed to get more in sync with himself. Also, he was with the Dutch National team for parts of his development, so who can say what was what?

I really don’t remember Lydon’s arc. I think, like you said, he was probably better on arrival than most of us expected.

 

[Newhouser]

I think consulting Melo is a no brainier. Letting Melo hold the program hostage is another issue. Hopefully we learned our lesson from our experience with JB.

 

[kingtidge]

I think consulting Melo is a no brainier. Letting Melo hold the program hostage is another issue. Hopefully we learned our lesson from our experience with JB.

Melo wants his kid to wind up in the NBA as a first round draft pick I would assume...

Where's that most likely to happen at this point?

Kiyan's best option to reach that goal might have been to go to USC under Musselman, if we're being honest (especially after how we have started this season).

Musselman has had at least one player selected in each of the last five NBA Drafts, the third-best active streak among NCAA coaches. He has had seven players drafted and has had 11 of his former players since 2019 reach the NBA, including lottery picks Moses Moody No. 14 to Golden State in 2021 and Anthony Black No. 6 to Orlando in 2023. Musselman has also helped develop four All-Americans, two Conference Players of the Years, three Conference Sixth Man of the Years and 21 All-Conference players. Three times Musselman has coached one of his players to league scoring titles.​

​

This season has gone remarkably bad for Red so far and it's on a dumpster fire trajectory by year-end, unless things change considerably in the next few weeks.

I am sure Team Melo is mulling over the current situation carefully as well. I doubt their intent is to "Hold the program hostage". They likely want the best place for their kid to succeed.

If we are forced to make a coaching change at the end of the year, the likelihood we hold on to Kiyan drops for sure, unless the change is very well-coordinated.

I know some have hinted here that Kiyan is coming with some sort of of funding commitments from Melo and/or his team. OK, that sounds good...

I just have no idea what the wheels flying off this season means for whatever those plans are, but color me concerned.

In reality, there is never really a good time for a historically-bad season with a coach on a real hotseat.

 

[Big House]

There are people campaigning for Red to get a third year. Yeah, we'd have another win or two if JJ was healthy. However, injuries are part of the game. The lack of game planning and in-game coaching has been glaring during JJ's absence (and prior). Most troubling is the team is going in the wrong direction. Players are not improving. Moore is very undisciplined. He has careless turnovers and a poor shot selection. Freeman is oozing with talent, but has no concept of help side defense and isn't very physical. I highlight Moore and Freeman because we should start seeing basic improvements in fundamental areas like shot selection or help side defense by now if they're getting coach properly.

Shouldn't the lack of player development be the biggest red flag to date? I don't know how we recruit anyone that has pro aspirations if they watch this team. More NIL money only gives us comfortable wins vs low DI teams. We'll continue to get outcoached in all other areas. Please tell me I'm wrong.

I agree with everything that you have said these assistants coaches obviously dont seem to be helping with this team and I think Red needs at least 1 more year but if he losing freeman and Moore then it’s time for him to go just a opinion.

 

[LAorange44]

Jesse definitely did improve, but… the things he did later were the same things he showed flashes of as a freshman. He just seemed to get more in sync with himself. Also, he was with the Dutch National team for parts of his development, so who can say what was what?

I really don’t remember Lydon’s arc. I think, like you said, he was probably better on arrival than most of us expected.

I think Griff was his position coach. I remember JB disclosing that in response to the criticism that we don’t have a big man as the centers coach.

 

[AZOrange]

Player development has been my biggest issue over the last 10 years

 

[721Comstock]

Player development has been my biggest issue over the last 10 years

Or more accurately - lack thereof.

 

[44Wallace]

"red flag"

I see what you did there.

 

[Sherman20]

Jesse definitely did improve, but… the things he did later were the same things he showed flashes of as a freshman. He just seemed to get more in sync with himself. Also, he was with the Dutch National team for parts of his development, so who can say what was what?

I really don’t remember Lydon’s arc. I think, like you said, he was probably better on arrival than most of us expected.

He spent a few weeks with the Dutch national team. The vast majority of his time was spent at Syracuse working with our coaches, and he improved dramatically. All this losing has broken everyone’s brains. The idea that our coaches are bad at developing players’ individual skills is all based on vibes, and the vibes are bad. Our failures are due to bad roster construction and lack of NIL, poor portal player evaluation, not having a cohesive offensive and defensive identity (and/or not being able to teach it), and lack of creativity and execution on offense.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Our failures are due to bad roster construction and lack of NIL, poor portal player evaluation, not having a cohesive offensive and defensive identity (and/or not being able to teach it), and lack of creativity and execution on offense.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

He spent a few weeks with the Dutch national team. The vast majority of his time was spent at Syracuse working with our coaches, and he improved dramatically. All this losing has broken everyone’s brains. The idea that our coaches are bad at developing players’ individual skills is all based on vibes, and the vibes are bad. Our failures are due to bad roster construction and lack of NIL, poor portal player evaluation, not having a cohesive offensive and defensive identity (and/or not being able to teach it), and lack of creativity and execution on offense.

I guess my brain is “broken,“ then, if I don’t just simply trust that Griffin is the reason Jesse became pretty good.

Jesse had training with a Netherlands team, IMG Academy, and two summer stints with the Netherlands National Team. That seems like more than “a few weeks.” Either way, my point remains—crediting ”development” is an exercise in faith. You’re entitled to your religion, an I my agnosticism.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I guess my brain is “broken,“ then, if I don’t just simply trust that Griffin is the reason Jesse became pretty good.

Jesse had training with a Netherlands team, IMG Academy, and two summer stints with the Netherlands National Team. That seems like more than “a few weeks.” Either way, my point remains—crediting ”development” is an exercise in faith. You’re entitled to your religion, an I my agnosticism.

Man, remember all the yapping about not paying $800k for Jesse and that it was unconscionable to pay that for the first or second best player on the team and then giving that same amount to Lampkin a year later who also pulled the same stunts?