Reality Check...... | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Reality Check......

Harrison was in Cooney's backpocket all afternoon. That was an incredible defensive game he played. When it comes down to it Cooney was still a big reason we won b/c he freed Ennis up.

Only thing we need to discuss regarding Cooney is how he got frustrated and stopped moving without the ball. At one point he got Harrison to switch off and TC stood in the corner doing nothing while he had a huge mismatch.
 
anomander said:
Ya i really hope people aren't already forgetting the greatness of Gerry McNamara. His 6 first half 3 pointers say without him we don't have a national championship

Nobody's forgotten what he's done for the program and never ever will because of the banners hanging in the dome. I'm not disrespecting Gerry by saying Cooney is probably an equal shooter, more athletic and bigger. Gerry exceeded EVERY expectation for him his freshman year, he was unreal and put up a great career for Syracuse that will always be respected and cherished by the fans here. It's not a lie saying Cooney is surrounded by much greater talent excluding the NC team leading Gerry to be the ONLY scoring option on most of our teams. Cooney hasn't been that and never will be with our current roster and our incoming players. Put Cooney on Gmac's year 2-4 teams and I think you see very similar players and statistics maybe even more Cooney heavy because of the extra size and athleticism.
 
You have no idea and obviously have blinders on. GMac single handily killed rally after rally with jacking up shots (bad, forced shots) coming off the bench after a short rest. He also won games single-handedly. Gmac doesn't even come close athletically. GMac couldn't drive at all. By the way, Cooney has 2 1/2 more years left. He is shooting over 50 % from three so far this year. Yet you think somehow it isn't half of what GMac was. ?????????

Your loyalty is commendable but your blinders need to come off. I'll wait to see what Cooney's final contributions are. He could just as easily far outpace GMac.

Hey Bees, I'm going to argue that GMac, in some ways, is a better shooter than TC. Don't assume that that means I hate Cooney and want him to fail. I am just as happy with his play this season as I was disappointed with it last season. It would be great for him, the team, me, and the universe, if he continues to shoot over 40% this season. So please don't add me to your dossier of Cooney haters, whoever you think they are.

SP, I have to disagree with most of your post. Lets start with the obvious, GMac had a far, far, far better freshman season than TC, and one does not even have to bring up the NC to argue that. That is a quarter of their careers right there - TC has a lot of catching up to do in the next 3 years. Fortunately, he is off to a great start this season and making up some ground on GMac.

TC has several advantages that GMac didn't have his last 3 seasons: 1) TC's point guards have been MCW and Ennis, while GMac had Billy for three disruptive half seasons, 2) TC plays only SG, while GMac was the PG when Billy wasn't playing, 3) in his soph and junior seasons, GMac's backcourt mates included Louis M, Josh Wright, and Josh Pace (a player I luv but not at the SG position), 4) for more than half of his career, GMac was SU's best player (or co-best), the PG, and primary outside scoring threat. As such he faced greater defensive attention than TC has seen or probably will see, and 5) as the #1 or #1b scoring option, GMac had to take more shots than TC (although this difference is modest, ~15%), GMac attempted a 3pt a little more often than 1 per 4 min, and TC is a little less than 1 per 4 min).

Because of the above, GMac had to create many of his own shots, and many times he had no choice but to attempt them off the dribble while he was going sideways, backwards, or forwards, while he being closely defended. That he was able to average ~35% in these circumstances is a fine achievement and a testament to his genius as a shooter, and the reason why he was able to hit so many clutch shots and game winners. As I have noted several times, this season and last, for TC to make shots, he must go straight up. Even a little off of perpendicular adversely affects his shot. This is fairly obvious in games if you look for it. In the StJ game he was moving sideways on 2 of his attempts. If TC had to take the more-than-a-little off perpendicular shots GMac did, I doubt TC would hit even 10% of them. So in the difficult shot catagory, GMac is far better.

The good news is that TC has taken advantage of his situation this season and is hitting 46% (not over 50% SP) - which is absolutely superb. On top of that, he is doing it consistently in most games. If he continues this production, he will be remembered as one of the greatest SU shooters, maybe better than GMac. He hopefully will be a good addition to the usual list of GOAT candidates: Kohls, GMac, Roe, Lee... But TC has only been doing it for 10 games, so he has a long ways to go. Could GMac hit 46% playing strictly SG on this season's team - hell yeah, but not a given, and it is unlikely that he could do much better than 46%, since that is a very high number.

So TC needs to keep being good and IB raises the relevant question if TC's production will fall in the face of increased defensive attention. Maybe this is what happened with StJ. Maybe not. Given the reasonably strong strength of the OOC schedule vs the rest of the season, I think he was adequately tested and will remain productive the rest of the season, but it is a legitimate issue. On the other hand, if a team puts their best defender on him and shuts him down, he is still contributing by making it easier for the rest of the team. I think both sides of this argument have been way over stated the past 2 days.

SP, as for the rest of you post. Cooney is bigger and stronger than GMac, other than that, I don't see the big athletic advantage. GMac had a very good handle and certainly got to the rim when he needed to, however, he was small and consequently not a great finisher, which is hardly an athletic issue. Except for the Notre Dame game last season, I am hard pressed to remember TC successfully driving to the basket. And you might remember that his drive to the basket against Michigan in the last play of last season did not work out well. So I don't understand why you bring up this issue.
 
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Bjorn? Is that you? Are you tearing up old SU players at the Y still?

;)

Sadly, no. I dont think Cooney is near as good as many on here apparently do. it is what it is. I guess to fit in you have to love every player regardless of performance. I have said, however, that we need Cooney to play well in order to cut down the nets.

10 points a game is abut what i expect going forward, and I am fine with that.
 
True about him slowing down the 2nd half but not the 1st when he was non-stop motion looking to get open.
Did any of you ever think that Cooney was standing outside with his defender in close proximity because JB told him to? It opened up driving lanes for Ennis, Grant, and CJ, basically improving open spacing for the others. As long as someone stays in Cooneys hip pocket, I will take our chances at four on four.
 
Oakland said:
Hey Bees, I'm going to argue that GMac, in some ways, is a better shooter than TC.

Just to be clear not one of my posts compared GMac and Cooney.

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TBCuse11 said:
Sadly, no. I dont think Cooney is near as good as many on here apparently do. it is what it is. I guess to fit in you have to love every player regardless of performance. I have said, however, that we need Cooney to play well in order to cut down the nets. 10 points a game is abut what i expect going forward, and I am fine with that.

Funny you weren't saying that the first 9 games and it's also amusing that most every shot you took at Cooney was refuted by JB himself. He must have read your posts and also be the General of the Army.

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It cracks me up reading some of these posts, I love a healthy debate but It seems like some people are taking these comments personal. IMO , They are a good team not a great team And still have a lot of work to do. i do think Lavin exposed one of our weaknesses and that is Trevor. Not that he's a bad player, But APlayer that when left open and gets hot, can put games away early. He was smart to face guard Trevor and make the other players on the floor beat them. Trevor did play a little passive and didn't try to take the ball to the rim. Trevor fell into that same rut early in the year, but responded the next game by being more aggressive. I still think this team is one dynamic scorer/shooter away from being really good. I was hoping that one of the 3 bench Frosh would turn into that but don't see it happening.
 
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Sadly, no. I dont think Cooney is near as good as many on here apparently do. it is what it is. I guess to fit in you have to love every player regardless of performance. I have said, however, that we need Cooney to play well in order to cut down the nets.

10 points a game is abut what i expect going forward, and I am fine with that.

People can have whatever opinion of Trevor that they want. To each his own. We dont all have to agree.

I have met him. He helped my son during workouts at the Hopkins Academy. He gave of his time to help a lot of kids. MCW too. Before the Academy sessions he was always working out in the weight room or on the court. The kid put a ton of time into improving his game. If you want to count him out and nit pick his contributions because of one bad game, that's fine. But I base my value of a player on a lot more than just one freakin game. Trevor is going to be huge for us this season. He's a player. Maybe not to your standards, but JB likes him. Like I said yesterday, if Trevor drops those two 3's that were half in, we go up 20 in the first half and kiss the Johnnies goodnight.
 
Sadly, no. I dont think Cooney is near as good as many on here apparently do. it is what it is. I guess to fit in you have to love every player regardless of performance. I have said, however, that we need Cooney to play well in order to cut down the nets.

10 points a game is abut what i expect going forward, and I am fine with that.

So I'm just looking for some clarity here because it seems to me you have not made one valid point. You continue to say that St. Johns didn't game plan for Cooney and you know this because you played high school and college ball. Yet whenever someone provides information to the contrary, you just make snide remarks instead of coming up with some facts. Here is a fact, Cooney is averaging 10.5 shots a game. Yesterday, he only took 3 shots and I believe one of them was on a semi-fast break (not half court set), but this had nothing to do with St. Johns game planning for him? You also say that wing defenders dont help on dribble penetration which is just not true. This isnt the NBA, but the NBA is almost always a game of spacing, which Cooney provided yesterday. Why do you think Novak was so successful for the Knicks last year? He provided spacing which cleared the lane. If the defender cheats off of him towards the lane (in this case Harrison), Cooney is wide open for a 3 ball. This is exactly why when our guys drove (CJ and Ennis) they drove towards the wing Cooney was on. Also, as many have pointed out, harrison is there best on ball defender. That means Harrison wasnt on our best penetrator, which provided even more opportunities for Ennis to attack the rim. Its the reason why Ennis dominated the first half and had 15 points.

Not that I needed it, but Jimmy basically says all of this in his post game press conference, but then again you played high school and college basketball.
 
St. Johns did nothing other than guard Cooney man to man with Harrison. They did not double, they did not help. He got completly shut down by simple man to man. its ok, we dont need Cooney to win, but can we please face reality.
There was nothing simple about the defense SJU played against Cooney yesterday. It appeared that Lavin decided he wasn't going to let TC beat them and game planned to stop him.

In all m2m systems players are taught to "see ball" and "help" when necessary. When you play against a player that has been shooting as well TC...some coaches will dictate that the player guarding said great shooter (like TC) never leave him to help.

That's exactly what Harrison was doing yesterday. Basically his assignment was to prevent (in many cases face guarding him) TC from catching the ball in rhythm and force him as far away from the basket as possible.

I was very impressed with TC's patience and it actually opened up penetration opportunities for team mates because there was one less help-defender in the mix.
 
I've been trying to figure out what's behind this Cooney Derangement Syndrome (CDS). I think I might have it figured out. Here's the logic I'm seeing:

1. GMac is my hero!
2. People are getting all excited about Cooney, and that's a threat to my hero! (because...?)
ERGO:
3. I need to protect my hero by attacking Cooney and anyone who speaks well of him!
 
It cracks me up reading some of these posts, I love a healthy debate but It seems like some people are taking these comments personal. IMO , They are a good team not a great team And still have a lot of work to do. i do think Lavin exposed one of our weaknesses and that is Trevor. Not that he's a bad player, But APlayer that when left open and gets hot, can put games away early. He was smart to face guard Trevor and make the other players on the floor beat them. Trevor did play a little passive and didn't try to take the ball to the rim. Trevor fell into that same rut early in the year, but responded the next game by being more aggressive. I still think this team is one dynamic scorer/shooter away from being really good. I was hoping that one of the 3 bench Frosh would turn into that but don't see it happening.

The issue as I see it is that even with the face guarding, two of Cooney's first three treys looked good when they left his hand. Would we even being having this discussion if they went in?

Doubt it.

Cheers,
Neil
 
Just to be clear not one of my posts compared GMac and Cooney.

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Nice try, but that does not cut it.
 
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Oakland said:
Nice try, but that does cut it.

What are you talking about? Have you confused posts? Whatever it is you're talking about has nothing to do with any GMac-Cooney post of mine.

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What are you talking about? Have you confused posts? Whatever it is you're talking about has nothing to do with any GMac-Cooney post of mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Sorry, I forgot to put the 'not' in my post. That has been corrected.

However, you have explicitly stated that some posters want TC to fail. I think that is silly talk and don't want you to paint me with that brush stroke. Criticism of TC does not mean that posters want him to fail - something that you clearly don't understand.
 
Oakland said:
Sorry, I forgot to put the 'not' in my post. That has been corrected. However, you have explicitly stated that some posters want TC to fail. I think that is silly talk and don't want you to paint me with that brush stroke. Criticism of TC does not mean that posters want him to fail - something that you clearly don't understand.

Um, you must have missed the hatred from some of them before game one or the lack of kudos when he's kicked ass or the knifes that came out his first off game. So there's a HUGE difference between saying you think GMAC was better or that he had a bad game and the other garbage. I'm not the only one that thinks they are haters and relished in the fact he had an off game.

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Um, you must have missed the hatred from some of them before game one or the lack of kudos when he's kicked ass or the knifes that came out his first off game. So there's a HUGE difference between saying you think GMAC was better or that he had a bad game and the other garbage. I'm not the only one that thinks they are haters and relished in the fact he had an off game.

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I read most of the posts on this board so don't give me that crap. And my initial comment was directed to you and had nothing to do with GMac so don't hide behind that. And I didn't direct my thought to other posters so don't hide behind them.

Your stated opinion is that some SUFan posters want TC to fail. I disagree.
 
Oakland said:
I read most of the posts on this board so don't give me that crap. And my initial comment was directed to you and had nothing to do with GMac so don't hide behind that. And I didn't direct my thought to other posters so don't hide behind them. Your stated opinion is that some SUFan posters want TC to fail. I disagree.

And your post was confusing as hell. As to your last statement I stand behind it and they have proved it. And that's not crap. Go argue your own battles.

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It cracks me up reading some of these posts, I love a healthy debate but It seems like some people are taking these comments personal. IMO , They are a good team not a great team And still have a lot of work to do. i do think Lavin exposed one of our weaknesses and that is Trevor. Not that he's a bad player, But APlayer that when left open and gets hot, can put games away early. He was smart to face guard Trevor and make the other players on the floor beat them. Trevor did play a little passive and didn't try to take the ball to the rim. Trevor fell into that same rut early in the year, but responded the next game by being more aggressive. I still think this team is one dynamic scorer/shooter away from being really good. I was hoping that one of the 3 bench Frosh would turn into that but don't see it happening.
How do you expose our weakness as being Cooney? Do you put your best defender on the weak link? Do you have said defender face guard all game long and never help defensively on anyone else?

Wish we had more weaknesses like Cooney. Oh wait…. we do…Ennis, C.J., Grant. If only we had one of the other freshman step up to this level we would be a really good team…..We might even be ranked in the top 20 or something. Hmmmmmmm…...
 
How do you expose our weakness as being Cooney? Do you put your best defender on the weak link? Do you have said defender face guard all game long and never help defensively on anyone else?

Wish we had more weaknesses like Cooney. Oh wait…. we do…Ennis, C.J., Grant. If only we had one of the other freshman step up to this level we would be a really good team…..We might even be ranked in the top 20 or something. Hmmmmmmm…...

The Cooney lovefest has taken on a comical nature at this point. Trevor is our 4th best player. He had a terrible game Sunday. Those are both facts. Life goes on. He will have better games in the future. He is an important player for our team because you really need four scorers to be good long term. Trevor's Army would have a chance of being more credible if they could admit the bad as well as bowing to him when he drops a few three balls.
 
TBCuse11 said:
The Cooney lovefest has taken on a comical nature at this point. Trevor is our 4th best player. He had a terrible game Sunday. Those are both facts. Life goes on. He will have better games in the future. He is an important player for our team because you really need four scorers to be good long term. Trevor's Army would have a chance of being more credible if they could admit the bad as well as bowing to him when he drops a few three balls.

Except JB is right, not you. You've been wrong right along.

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Cooney played HORRIFIC yesterday. He didn't move without the ball at all. I questioned if he was sick or something?

That being said... Cooney will not be that bad the rest of the season. I'll bet on that.

Wow, that's pretty strong language. He had two shots that clanked the opposite rim. If he was just a little higher on those shots he would have had 6 points. I don't think it's a big deal when both teams together went 2 for 23. I think it must have been cold in MSG, lighting, or something. Let's see what Cooney does in the next two games before we draw such a strong conclusion.
 
The Cooney lovefest has taken on a comical nature at this point. Trevor is our 4th best player. He had a terrible game Sunday. Those are both facts. Life goes on. He will have better games in the future. He is an important player for our team because you really need four scorers to be good long term. Trevor's Army would have a chance of being more credible if they could admit the bad as well as bowing to him when he drops a few three balls.

If you told any of us that Cooney would give us what he has given us so far this season we would all be jumping up and down with freaking pom poms. So the kid had one bad game? BFD

This could be one of the one of the worst threads ever.
 
Wow, that's pretty strong language. He had two shots that clanked the opposite rim. If he was just a little higher on those shots he would have had 6 points. I don't think it's a big deal when both teams together went 2 for 23. I think it must have been cold in MSG, lighting, or something. Let's see what Cooney does in the next two games before we draw such a strong conclusion.

hmm... I dont think you meant to respond to my message.

or maybe you misread it...
 

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