Red Season 1 Now a Bust

[pearl31]

Don’t mess with the narrative.

the (laughable) narrative that the assistants got to decide who to prioritize and who to offer?

 

[pwong]

the narrative that the assistants got to decide who to prioritize and who to offer?

Wasn’t Taylor a JB recruit? I think JB pitched Taylor heavily on becoming Buddy 2.0

 

[Cusefan0307]

Wasn’t Taylor a JB recruit? I think JB pitched Taylor heavily on becoming Buddy 2.0

Correct

 

[Melancer46]

I feel like if this season is a disappointment relative to your expectations, your expectations were not realistic in the first place. It's been better than I expected if anything. Copeland, Bell, and obviously Maliq have made some nice strides this year and JJ has been good after the cold start he had.

 

[Doc5120]

he doesn't take many. it feels like he is shooting so poorly because they are all open looks. Like a defender is not even covering him type looks.

And there is clearly a good reason for that.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Pitino is imploding at St. John’s. He’s getting ripped for his embarrassing post game comments. They blew another lead and are now 14-12. He mentioned several players by name and said they are slow and have no lateral movement. He said it’s the least enjoyable first year he’s ever had as a coach. He also aid the poor facilities are not the reason they are losing. He’s completely lost it.

 

[orangecuse]

I think Red has had a fine year for the hand he was dealt. I’ll be more critical next year, but he has to hit the offseason running. The referendums after each game have become exhausting.

I have taken a wait and see approach relative to this season and haven't made any judgements, etc. being fully aware as a first time head coach there would be ups and downs, etc.

I am generally curious about the "hand he was dealt" remark you've made as well as some others. This hand he was dealt, as an assistant head coach here for years leading up to this year, didn't he play a good part in recruiting/bringing this roster to SU? I mean, I've read here on numerous occasions in the past/last several years that Red and Gerry did all/most of the recruiting as JB really had no interest in doing the work, etc. and volutarily resting on his laurels so to speak.

Therefore, it would appear then that Red certainly does have a "hand" in this roster's make up, etc. Not to mention, the additional folks he brought in (fully aware of their injury status, hopeful recoveries, etc.) during the off season.

I realize the Jesse situation threw a significant monkey wrench into the 5 spot, however, I do think some folks here overrated his impact somewhat, especially when he went up against some of the more beefy, stronger type competition against those particular league teams/match-ups, etc. where his productivity generally wasn't that stellar.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I have taken a wait and see approach relative to this season and haven't made any judgements, etc. being fully aware as a first time head coach there would be ups and downs, etc.

I am generally curious about the "hand he was dealt" remark you've made as well as some others. This hand he was dealt, as an assistant head coach here for years leading up to this year, didn't he play a good part in recruiting/bringing this roster to SU? I mean, I've read here on numerous occasions in the past/last several years that Red and Gerry did all/most of the recruiting as JB really had no interest in doing the work, etc. and resting on his laurels so to speak.

Therefore, it would appear then that Red certainly does have a "hand" in this roster's make up, etc. Not to mention, the additional folks he brought in (fully aware of their injury status, hopeful recoveries, etc.) during the off season. I understand the Jesse situation threw a significant monkey wrench into the 5 spot, however, I think some folks here overrated his productivity somewhat, especially when he went up against some of the more beefy, stronger type compettion faced against those particular league teams/match-ups, etc.

I’m separating JB from Red which appears to be a difficult thing to do for half the board. We are trending in the right direction despite the hyper emotional posts whenever we lose.

If you want to criticize Red I think the one area you can go after him for is giving Benny too many chances, but then again half this board thought he would be a productive player with JB gone because JB was too tough on him.

The recruiting situation has been discussed at length. Red and Gerry would go see kids while JB sat home. Calipari, Larranaga and others were doing the recruiting as HC’s while our assistants were doing all the heavy lifting. It’s easy to see why a kid would not want to come here if the HC can’t be bothered to get in the car or on a plane to see him. That doesn’t even take into account the fact JB didn’t want them going after certain guys for a multitude of other reasons.

I suppose Red could have taken a butcher knife to the entire roster in the offseason like Pitino and Cooley did, but as we have seen it’s not easy to build a winner that way either.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Athletes that JB recruited for zone are not great man to man players. JB wanted size and length. Good man defense needs some physicality, great lateral quickness and toughness. This years team has very little of any of these things.

 

[capeorange]

the (laughable) narrative that the assistants got to decide who to prioritize and who to offer?

Well if JB sat back and did nothing his last few years, who went out and watched the players and recruited them. People can't have it both ways. If he was so detached, how did he even know who to recruit?
My guess is that fault lies with the whole former coaching staff.

 

[orangecuse]

I’m separating JB from Red which appears to be a difficult thing to do for half the board to do. We are trending in the right direction despite the hyper emotional posts whenever we lose.

If you want to criticize Red I think the one area you can go after him for is giving Benny too many chances, but then again half this board thought he would be a productive player with JB gone because JB was too tough on him.

The recruiting situation has been discussed at length. Red and Gerry would go see kids while JB sat home. Calipari, Larranaga and others were doing the recruiting as HC’s while our assistants were doing all the heavy lifting. It’s easy to see why a kid would not want to come here if the HC can’t be bothered to get in the car or on a plane to see him. That doesn’t even take into account the fact JB didn’t want them going after certain guys for a multitude of other reasons.

I suppose Red could have taken a butcher knife to the entire roster in the offseason like Pitino and Cooley did, but as we have seen it’s not easy to build a winner that way either.

I appreciate your response and viewpoint.

In regards to your 'separating' JB from Red, and subsequent comment about half the board, it can be argued that that is a, let's just say, convenient position to take, especially when considering Red was an assistant head coach here for years, et al at Syracuse University.

 

[Nicknack]

This is easily proven not true.

last year - 39 percent from 3
this year - 30 percent from 3, basically same amount of makes with 20 more shots. If he shoots 39 percent this year, I would guess we win 2-3 more games

Honestly thinking about it more. Maybe 4-5 games. If he was hitting 39 percent, the offense would be much more open for Judah and JJ to slash and drive. plus he rebounds better than Bell, so we could sit Chris when he wasn’t hitting. Really hurt this season a lot

Yeah, I'd say we would have at least two more wins on our record with JT shooting closer to 39 percent. One of those games would have likely been this past weekend.

The last five games, JT is shooting 2-11 from 3 and 7-22 overall. That's just a killer. That obviously means a lot of empty possessions for us on offense, lost momentum off his clankers, and JT not having to be guarded by opposing defenses making it more difficult for others.

 

[Dave]

the (laughable) narrative that the assistants got to decide who to prioritize and who to offer?

No. The narrative that if the toilet doesn’t flush properly, it’s Boeheims fault. Silly boy.

 

[pokercuse08]

I am generally curious about the "hand he was dealt" remark you've made as well as some others. This hand he was dealt, as an assistant head coach here for years leading up to this year, didn't he play a good part in recruiting/bringing this roster to SU? I mean, I've read here on numerous occasions in the past/last several years that Red and Gerry did all/most of the recruiting as JB really had no interest in doing the work, etc. and volutarily resting on his laurels so to speak.

Well if JB sat back and did nothing his last few years, who went out and watched the players and recruited them. People can't have it both ways. If he was so detached, how did he even know who to recruit?
My guess is that fault lies with the whole former coaching staff.

The same points keep coming up in every discussion about Red, so I'll give the same response. Just because the assistants were doing most of the recruiting work, doesn't mean they had carte blanche to go recruit players that didn't fit into Boeheim's system. So they were looking for tall lanky guards (rules out a lot of PG, which is why we often end up with combo guards running point) and forwards with good wingspan.

If we had a smoother transition, with an announcement maybe a year in advance, then the point that the current crop of recruits were on Red would have a lot more merit.

 

[JeremyCuse]

JW’s slow playing of Dino’s firing suggests he’ll get a 3rd year (at least), but imo I’d need to see a LOT of potential to provide a 3rd year if next year’s team is similarly under-whelming. And what if Freeman is OAD?

Dino's firing was slow played because of the buyout on his extension and because he unexpectedly made a bowl game in 2022. There's a reason he was let go with a chance for 6 wins still on the table. There's no such issues with Reds deal. I think he gets at least 3 years but from what I have heard if SU isn't in the tourney next year things will get hot quickly.

 

[orangecuse]

The same points keep coming up in every discussion about Red, so I'll give the same response. Just because the assistants were doing most of the recruiting work, doesn't mean they had carte blanche to go recruit players that didn't fit into Boeheim's system. So they were looking for tall lanky guards (rules out a lot of PG, which is why we often end up with combo guards running point) and forwards with good wingspan.

If we had a smoother transition, with an announcement maybe a year in advance, then the point that the current crop of recruits were on Red would have a lot more merit.

I'm not arguing from an absolute sense that the "current crop of recruits" are on Red, simply suggesting that he played a role, therefore, contributing to the "hand he was dealt" thesis. I think it's pretty darn convenient to say otherwise, but as with any argument, folks will chose to align their opinion/beliefs with their particular point of view, etc.

I guess some of these same folks whom are able to disassociate Red from JB now, likely tied the two (Gerry as well) to JB moreso during the 2016 Final Four run, etc. when it was more suitable to be linked directly to "Boeheim's system."

 

[pearl31]

No. The narrative that if the toilet doesn’t flush properly, it’s Boeheims fault. Silly boy.

You really don't have a clue how JB ran things, do you?

 

[pokercuse08]

I'm not arguing from an absolute sense that the "current crop of recruits" are on Red, simply suggesting that he played a role, therefore, contributing to the "hand he was dealt" thesis. I think it's pretty darn convenient to say otherwise, but as with any argument, folks will chose to align their opinion/beliefs with their particular point of view, etc.

Played a role, sort of, but it's all relative. You have to judge them based on the situation they were put in - recruiting to JB's system with the head coach only acting as a closer, with recruits knowing the head coach was old and could retire any time.
It's not fair to Red to compare the recruiting the last several years to recruiters who did not have those limitations placed on them, or to say that this year's talent issues are mostly his fault given the situations he was in.

I guess some of these same folks whom are able to disassociate Red from JB now, likely tied the two (Gerry as well) to JB moreso during the 2016 Final Four run, etc. when it was more convenient to be linked directly to "Boeheim's system."

I'm not really sure where you're going with this, as a lot of us were pointing out over the last several years that the Final Four run was masking our decline. There's also a difference in being linked to Boeheim's system vis a vis being forced to recruit certain types of players, and being linked to it with regard to knowing how to coach it if we wanted to keep playing it.

Personally, my cards are on the table. I wanted a national search, and if Autry was the top guy afterwards, great. We didn't get that, but he seems like a good guy, I love my Orange, and I'm rooting for him. Mainly as a fan I just try to be as logical as possible, at least in between games when I'm not yelling at the TV lol...

 

[GoSU96]

Barring a miracle in the next 3 weeks, Red’s season 1 is looking like a bust, or at least underperformed against fans’ expectations.

Looking ahead to next year I believe he must make the NCAA Tournament. The program can’t continue to produce mediocre results year after year. We’re slipping as a national program. Falling with the likes of Indiana and Georgetown into the oblivion of has-beens.

Question is, do you give Red a third year if he fails to make the NCAAT next year?

Even if he gets a third year, if he doesn’t make the tournament by his third year there’s no chance he gets a 4th.

Relax - sophomore team that has lost most of its bigs. 1st year coach changing up the defense and offense. It’s a more athletic team with some big weaknesses.

There are good pieces to build around for next year. It’s WIP, not final.

 

[007]

The same points keep coming up in every discussion about Red, so I'll give the same response. Just because the assistants were doing most of the recruiting work, doesn't mean they had carte blanche to go recruit players that didn't fit into Boeheim's system. So they were looking for tall lanky guards (rules out a lot of PG, which is why we often end up with combo guards running point) and forwards with good wingspan.

If we had a smoother transition, with an announcement maybe a year in advance, then the point that the current crop of recruits were on Red would have a lot more merit.

Good post (per usual).

From what I know, Hop was the only assistant the last 20 years who had a major say. But my understanding is that JB always was the final decision maker.

There are many references to JB putting in less effort physically getting out and recruiting as he aged. I think a more subtle trend was his increasingly reluctance to "chase after" more demanding high profile recruits or deal with their egos when they got here. He also recruited to his system, often at the expense of prioritizing length and lean athletes over offensive skills sets. He believed in his ability to coach up what he had without having deal with all the other "nonsense" that recruiting had become. That was his prerogative as the HC with a HOF career. That also meant that he was unilaterally responsible for the roster make up. Blaming Red for that lacks context.

Red's off season's roster management decisions and success in the portal, along with the 25 recruiting class, will set the tone for his success at SU. Any other judgements are premature, IMO.

 

[LAorange44]

Athletes that JB recruited for zone are not great man to man players. JB wanted size and length. Good man defense needs some physicality, great lateral quickness and toughness. This years team has very little of any of these things.

I disagree with this take. Our defense is fine despite the recent skid. The offense has been abysmal and the reason we lose games. Man vs Zone debate shouldn’t impact our ability to run sets on offense. We are an above average defense and below average team on offense. We need scorers.

 

[atlanticuse]

we keep bashing players like JT, but were ecstatic when we targeted them.
Whose issue (failure) is that? Shouldn't coaches... coach?

Justin Taylor Updates Recruitment, Decision Timeframe with Crucial Month Ahead

Taylor will visit Syracuse, North Carolina, Indiana and Virginia Tech in June.

www.si.com

Oh, and re: lead recruiter? G-Mac. Are we saying it was 100% HC JAB?

It might not just be something, but someone, who’s vaulted the Orange to the front of the recruiting conversation. Gerry McNamara has been Syracuse’s lead man for both four-star forward Kamari Lands and now Taylor.

 

[pearl31]

apparently there are ppl that actually think "lead recruiter" under JB meant they chose which players to go after
lol

 

[orangecuse]

apparently there are ppl that actually think "lead recruiter" under JB meant they chose which players to go after
lol

FWIW, it's not my thinking.

What is, is this. Say, for argument sake as 007 suggests, that Red (and Gerry) had these A list type guys (highly top rated types), but because of what 007 mentioned, JB says ain't ever happening, so bring me your best of the B type, along with your C type, and I'll (we'll) simply coach them up to fit my system.

So, Red brings in those guys per JB's criteria, although, with the understanding that JB at least entrusts Red, his associate head coach (along with Gerry) to still be able to assess 'good enough' talent to work and play at the level that is expected at Syracuse University. JB, "having the final say" buys in to this personnel that his assistants and supposedly qualified talent evaluators bring/pitch to him.

If these particular folks don't pan out, or were, let's just say, misevaluated, etc., isn't there at least some degree of onus on Red or Gerry for bringing them to JB in the first place as the nuts and bolts type guys? That's all I've been attempting to argue.

 

[Cusefan0307]

FWIW, it's not my thinking.

What is, is this. Say, for argument sake as 007 suggests, that Red (and Gerry) had these A list type guys (highly top rated types), but because of what 007 mentioned, JB says ain't ever happening, so bring me your best of the B type, along with your C type, and I'll (we'll) simply coach them up to fit my system.

So, Red brings in those guys per JB's mandate, however, with the understanding that JB at least entrusts Red, his associate head coach (along with Gerry) to still be able to assess, let's just say, "good enough" talent to work and play at the level that is expected at Syracuse University. JB, "having the final say" buys in to this personnel that his assistants and supposedly qualified talent evaluators bring/pitch to him.

If these particular folks don't pan out, or were, let's just say, misevaluated, etc., isn't there at least some degree of onus on Red or Gerry for bring them to JB in the first place as the nuts and bolts guys? That's all I've been attempting to argue.

There were players that could have helped us that we didn’t bring in that JB said no to. A guard transfer from Auburn who’s name escapes me as one.

We also broke up a sweet 16 team that probably could have won 25 games the following year, but JB wanted to add Jimmy to the team.

JJ Starling did not want to come here with JB as the HC. Suddenly JB retires and he’s here. Those are 3 examples off the top of my head.

And a quick google search will find you about 5 articles from Zagoria of Red or GMac showing up to see a player when the other teams HC is there