Shafer can coach D

[Moontan]

And lastly, it's worth mentioning that fHCSS' offense was better than Dino's in SS' last year vs Dino's first. They held onto the ball longer, and they scored more points per drive.

We disproved the latter over a year ago. Your claim includes defensive scores and OT scores.

Let it go...

 

[orange79]

Most of the criticisms levied against him as a HC ignore the reality of his situation.

He was hired very late in the cycle by an average team w/ a lot of holes in the coaching staff, and he didn't have a big budget. Promotions aside (i.e. Coach McF*ckit), he could only hire the people that he knew/was friends with (100% not his fault), and had worked at Michigan (not stealing anyone from them), Stanford (not stealing anyone from them), and MAC schools.

As such, he hired a MAC-level coaching staff, who couldn't hack it in the ACC. Then they went to a bowl in the 1st year. Mixing up the staff at that point would have been career suicide. What was he supposed to say, "hey thanks force quitting your job late in the cycle last year and then helping me reach a bowl ... now you're fired?" Nobody worth their salt would have worked for then after a move like that one.

And then he shook up the offense after the second year by hiring/promoting Lester, who made dramatic strides. But fHCSS was fired halfway through the year. What could anyone realistically expect the guy to do?

Throw in the fact that there was turmoil at the AD, so support for the coach and program were in question, and any strong external hires would have been extremely hesitant to jump aboard.

And lastly, it's worth mentioning that fHCSS' offense was better than Dino's in SS' last year vs Dino's first. They held onto the ball longer, and they scored more points per drive.

The truth is that fHCSS never had a legitimate chance.

All of the above said, I think that Dino is a great coach, and I'm confident that he will win here within the next two years.

There's a lot about this post that is either supposition, or just plain wrong.

 

[NKR1978]

Doug Marrone

We’re still arguing about P.

After Armageddon, it’ll be a few left over Syracuse fans arguing with the mutant cockroaches about the zone and whether P should have been fired.

 

[FasterCuse]

Maybe there can be one single thread including everything Shafer? Much like there is for Marrone and Rutgirls.

 

[nzm136]

We disproved the latter over a year ago. Your claim includes defensive scores and OT scores.

Let it go...

No. You blindly looked at non-pace adjusted stats, and you buried your head in the sand.

I think Dino is a great coach, but that doesn't mean that everything that he does is perfect, or that everything SS was terrible.

 

[nzm136]

There's a lot about this post that is either supposition, or just plain wrong.

You can bury your head in the sand all you want, but it doesn't change facts.

 

[TheCusian]

No. You blindly looked at non-pace adjusted stats, and you buried your head in the sand.

I think Dino is a great coach, but that doesn't mean that everything that he does is perfect, or that everything SS was terrible.

He's right.

Pace has nothing to do with defensive and special teams scores. Babers first year had better scoring numbers with points that actually came from the offense.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

You can bury your head in the sand all you want, but it doesn't change facts.

The fact is the team got worse under Shafer.

 

[Alsacs]

Scott Shafer is where he belongs good luck to him.
He was a terrible hire for Syracuse as HC and now gets to coach underdogs at a plucky mid major and can swear on the sidelines and no one will care.

 

[nzm136]

He's right.

Pace has nothing to do with defensive and special teams scores. Babers first year had better scoring numbers with points that actually came from the offense.

But pace has a lot to do w/ how often the offense scores, which going by our prior interactions, I don't think you understand.

If you have the ball 100x, you might score more than if you have the ball 50x, but still have a worse offense.

 

[nzm136]

The fact is the team got worse under Shafer.

...that's what happens when you trade an NFL-level coaching staff w/ a MAC-level coaching staff.

DM took almost everyone that was any good w/ him, and SS backfilled from a weak position.

 

[Alsacs]

But pace has a lot to do w/ how often the offense scores, which going by our prior interactions, I don't think you understand.

If you have the ball 100x, you might score more than if you have the ball 50x, but still have a worse offense.

Scott Shafer just punted again at midfield to keep the final score close.
Wow. His offense scored 30 points against P5 teams 4 times in 3 years and one of those 4 was a triple OT game.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

He is the best vs G5 teams and WV. Everyone else he is mediocre at best.

 

[Moontan]

No. You blindly looked at non-pace adjusted stats, and you buried your head in the sand.

I think Dino is a great coach, but that doesn't mean that everything that he does is perfect, or that everything SS was terrible.

Well, I'm sure that FHCSS also "won" in "punts per possession".

At the end of the day it's all about wins and on-field (and program) improvement that provide optimism in the future direction of the program.
We were all rooting for Scott to succeed. It just wasn't meant to be. He's a very good DC and could well get a G5 HC opportunity.

Most here are more interested in this week's signing class than in looking back 2-5 years to see if there was some other redeeming quality of FHCSS.

Let it go...

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

...that's what happens when you trade an NFL-level coaching staff w/ a MAC-level coaching staff.

DM took almost everyone that was any good w/ him, and SS backfilled from a weak position.

So why did he give McF***it a second chance after it was common knowledge that Lester was calling the plays down the stretch in 2013?

Why did he keep Bullough, even though the defense regressed year over year?

Why did he bring in Adam in year 2, who was a downgrade from the previous O-Line coaches?

 

[Fjoinkay]

There's a lot about this post that is either supposition, or just plain wrong.

There is supposition on both sides and both sides are just plain wrong about many points. That is the point! The fact I hope most people can agree with on this topic is that the volume of posts is massively lopsided on the looking backwards to throw shade side of the ledger. Due to the volume disparity there is a whole lot more sloppy thinking going on here that looks back and throws shade. Go Cuse!

 

[Fjoinkay]

I was on board with wishing him well 100% until he had his guys fake injuries and then had the victory cigar. Bush league.

But whatever - DB is *already* better than SS and I’m looking forward.

EDIT: I also stand by my comment. He is a very good DC and was a subpar, flawed HC. That’s pretty much fact.

Again, thanks for sharing your oponion yet again on this issue. Go Cuse!

 

[orange79]

You can bury your head in the sand all you want, but it doesn't change facts.

Let's take your post and look at it a little more closely.



Most of the criticisms levied against him as a HC ignore the reality of his situation.

He was hired very late in the cycle by an average team w/ a lot of holes in the coaching staff, and he didn't have a big budget. Promotions aside (i.e. Coach McF*ckit), he could only hire the people that he knew/was friends with (100% not his fault), and had worked at Michigan (not stealing anyone from them), Stanford (not stealing anyone from them), and MAC schools.

So, as it was so late in the cycle, the only people he could hire were his friends? I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say this is supposition. But I am pretty sure this is wrong.

As such, he hired a MAC-level coaching staff, who couldn't hack it in the ACC. Then they went to a bowl in the 1st year. Mixing up the staff at that point would have been career suicide. What was he supposed to say, "hey thanks force quitting your job late in the cycle last year and then helping me reach a bowl ... now you're fired?"

If he thought they were not working out, yes. that's exactly what he should say. He was the head coach. That's what head coaches do - they do what is in the best interest of the team.

Nobody worth their salt would have worked for then after a move like that one.

This is totally wrong. A chance to work at P5 program?

And then he shook up the offense after the second year by hiring/promoting Lester, who made dramatic strides. But fHCSS was fired halfway through the year. What could anyone realistically expect the guy to do?

Again, wrong. He was not fired 'halfway through the season'. He was fired on November 23rd, with only the BC game to be played.

Throw in the fact that there was turmoil at the AD, so support for the coach and program were in question, and any strong external hires would have been extremely hesitant to jump aboard.

At a P5 school? Supposition.

And lastly, it's worth mentioning that fHCSS' offense was better than Dino's in SS' last year vs Dino's first. They held onto the ball longer, and they scored more points per drive.

As stated earlier in the thread, this has been disproved.

The truth is that fHCSS never had a legitimate chance.

He had 96% of two seasons. The team was regressing. To say that he never had a legitimate chance is disingenuous, at best.

All of the above said, I think that Dino is a great coach, and I'm confident that he will win here within the next two years.

Look, I loved Shaf, the person. He obviously and genuinely cared about the kids. He's a super D coordinator. But some people aren't cut out to be head coaches. In my opinion, Shafer is one of those. At least, on a P5 level. I hope he gets to run his own program again at some point. But it was time for him to go here.

 

[TheCusian]

But pace has a lot to do w/ how often the offense scores, which going by our prior interactions, I don't think you understand.

If you have the ball 100x, you might score more than if you have the ball 50x, but still have a worse offense.

Oh. I was under the impression that the job of the offense was to score points.

If your case was which offense was more efficient, while still close - would favor Lester's. But if you're going with points scored by the offense - Babers wins.

I also gave you a pass on using year 3 of Shafer's O vs year 1 of Babers

 

[Fjoinkay]

Let's take your post and look at it a little more closely.



Most of the criticisms levied against him as a HC ignore the reality of his situation.

He was hired very late in the cycle by an average team w/ a lot of holes in the coaching staff, and he didn't have a big budget. Promotions aside (i.e. Coach McF*ckit), he could only hire the people that he knew/was friends with (100% not his fault), and had worked at Michigan (not stealing anyone from them), Stanford (not stealing anyone from them), and MAC schools.

So, as it was so late in the cycle, the only people he could hire were his friends? I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say this is supposition. But I am pretty sure this is wrong.

As such, he hired a MAC-level coaching staff, who couldn't hack it in the ACC. Then they went to a bowl in the 1st year. Mixing up the staff at that point would have been career suicide. What was he supposed to say, "hey thanks force quitting your job late in the cycle last year and then helping me reach a bowl ... now you're fired?"

If he thought they were not working out, yes. that's exactly what he should say. He was the head coach. That's what head coaches do - they do what is in the best interest of the team.

Nobody worth their salt would have worked for then after a move like that one.

This is totally wrong. A chance to work at P5 program?

And then he shook up the offense after the second year by hiring/promoting Lester, who made dramatic strides. But fHCSS was fired halfway through the year. What could anyone realistically expect the guy to do?

Again, wrong. He was not fired 'halfway through the season'. He was fired on November 23rd, with only the BC game to be played.

Throw in the fact that there was turmoil at the AD, so support for the coach and program were in question, and any strong external hires would have been extremely hesitant to jump aboard.

At a P5 school? Supposition.

And lastly, it's worth mentioning that fHCSS' offense was better than Dino's in SS' last year vs Dino's first. They held onto the ball longer, and they scored more points per drive.

As stated earlier in the thread, this has been disproved.

The truth is that fHCSS never had a legitimate chance.

He had 96% of two seasons. The team was regressing. To say that he never had a legitimate chance is disingenuous, at best.

All of the above said, I think that Dino is a great coach, and I'm confident that he will win here within the next two years.

Look, I loved Shaf, the person. He obviously and genuinely cared about the kids. He's a super D coordinator. But some people aren't cut out to be head coaches. In my opinion, Shafer is one of those. At least, on a P5 level. I hope he gets to run his own program again at some point. But it was time for him to go here.

Thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter. Go Cuse!!

 

[OrangeDW]

So why did he give McF***it a second chance after it was common knowledge that Lester was calling the plays down the stretch in 2013?

Why did he keep Bullough, even though the defense regressed year over year?

Why did he bring in Adam in year 2, who was a downgrade from the previous O-Line coaches?

And why didn’t we beat anybody good in 3 years? Dino has given us a couple good wins. Marrone gave us a few. Even GRob beat Notre Dame. Shafer’s best win? Minnesota?

 

[nzm136]

Let's take your post and look at it a little more closely.



Most of the criticisms levied against him as a HC ignore the reality of his situation.

He was hired very late in the cycle by an average team w/ a lot of holes in the coaching staff, and he didn't have a big budget. Promotions aside (i.e. Coach McF*ckit), he could only hire the people that he knew/was friends with (100% not his fault), and had worked at Michigan (not stealing anyone from them), Stanford (not stealing anyone from them), and MAC schools.

So, as it was so late in the cycle, the only people he could hire were his friends? I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say this is supposition. But I am pretty sure this is wrong.

As such, he hired a MAC-level coaching staff, who couldn't hack it in the ACC. Then they went to a bowl in the 1st year. Mixing up the staff at that point would have been career suicide. What was he supposed to say, "hey thanks force quitting your job late in the cycle last year and then helping me reach a bowl ... now you're fired?"

If he thought they were not working out, yes. that's exactly what he should say. He was the head coach. That's what head coaches do - they do what is in the best interest of the team.

Nobody worth their salt would have worked for then after a move like that one.

This is totally wrong. A chance to work at P5 program?

And then he shook up the offense after the second year by hiring/promoting Lester, who made dramatic strides. But fHCSS was fired halfway through the year. What could anyone realistically expect the guy to do?

Again, wrong. He was not fired 'halfway through the season'. He was fired on November 23rd, with only the BC game to be played.

Throw in the fact that there was turmoil at the AD, so support for the coach and program were in question, and any strong external hires would have been extremely hesitant to jump aboard.

At a P5 school? Supposition.

And lastly, it's worth mentioning that fHCSS' offense was better than Dino's in SS' last year vs Dino's first. They held onto the ball longer, and they scored more points per drive.

As stated earlier in the thread, this has been disproved.

The truth is that fHCSS never had a legitimate chance.

He had 96% of two seasons. The team was regressing. To say that he never had a legitimate chance is disingenuous, at best.

All of the above said, I think that Dino is a great coach, and I'm confident that he will win here within the next two years.

Look, I loved Shaf, the person. He obviously and genuinely cared about the kids. He's a super D coordinator. But some people aren't cut out to be head coaches. In my opinion, Shafer is one of those. At least, on a P5 level. I hope he gets to run his own program again at some point. But it was time for him to go here.

I'm on s phone, so I can't do the cute formatting...
1) who could he have hired that was worth anything that wouldn't be getting a promotion (McF) or that he didn't have a personal connection to? And, for the record, I remember zero complaints on this forum about the McF hire. In fact, most people were calling it a great hire due to his recruiting prowess.
2) You've clearly never led an organization. You can't fire people that just did you a huge favor (i.e. leaving a stable job to work for you) after they hit their KPIs (won a bowl game). Doing so annihilates morale, and it ensures that nobody good will ever work for you. Why would they? That's management 101. Relationships matter in the real world.
3) There were public talks about his job status w/ the writing clearly on the wall before he was formally fired.
4) Yes, because great coaches often leave stable jobs to make lateral moves (at best) to jump into tumultuous situations... name one time when that's happened.
5) and as stated in an earlier response, it was "disproved" by someone who doesn't believe in pace adjusting, and who can't grasp the concept that pace is a lever, and efficiency is what wins games.
6) ~2.5 seasons in the ACC w/ a MAC-level coaching staff is a joke. If you don't think so, then you're drinking too much kool-Aid. That's like saying Dino has yet to knock off FSU, and he has a losing record against BC, Pitt, Wake, and NCSU, so he should be fired.
7) You are dramatically understating the importance of assistant coaches, and the restrictions that SS had on hiring quality assistants.

 

[nzm136]

Oh. I was under the impression that the job of the offense was to score points.

If your case was which offense was more efficient, while still close - would favor Lester's. But if you're going with points scored by the offense - Babers wins.

I also gave you a pass on using year 3 of Shafer's O vs year 1 of Babers

Then you know shockingly little about football. The offense's job is three-fold:
1) score point ****WHEN THEY HAVE THE BALL****
2) consistently move the ball, so as to not put the defense in a nearly impossible position
3) eat clock to let the defense rest

(It's actually getting to be embarrassing that you *still* can't grasp that concept)

So yes, Lester had a better offense, even by your own admission.

And if you don't believe me, ask yourself if you would rather have an offense that throws a pick six 90% of the time and a TD 10% of the time, or an offense that runs for exactly 4 yards *every* time they run a play.

And it was year 1 of Lester vs year 1 of Babers, but whose keeping track of facts? ...definitely not you, so I'll give you a pass.

 

[TheCusian]

Then you know shockingly little about football. The offense's job is three-fold:
1) score point ****WHEN THEY HAVE THE BALL****
2) consistently move the ball, so as to not put the defense in a nearly impossible position
3) eat clock to let the defense rest

(It's actually getting to be embarrassing that you *still* can't grasp that concept)

So yes, Lester had a better offense, even by your own admission.

And if you don't believe me, ask yourself if you would rather have an offense that throws a pick six 90% of the time and a TD 10% of the time, or an offense that runs for exactly 4 yards *every* time they run a play.

And it was year 1 of Lester vs year 1 of Babers, but whose keeping track of facts? ...definitely not you, so I'll give you a pass.

This started with a point about points per game telling us that year 3 of Shafer was better than year 1 of Babers.

This is factually wrong. As stated many times.

Now you pivot to “points are important but so is holding the ball”?! (We agree about moving the ball consistently). Shafer played a slow and methodical offense and it yielded less chances to score (a point you’ve failed to get for months).

I’ll take points over time of possession. And so would Babers. We’re not Bama and this isn’t the 80’s, lol.

 

[Moontan]

5) and as stated in an earlier response, it was "disproved" by someone who doesn't believe in pace adjusting, and who can't grasp the concept that pace is a lever, and efficiency is what wins games.

Wrong on all counts there.

While “efficiency” and other stats are cute, it’s total points (e.g. the end score) that actually wins games.

Scott’s offenses were much less dynamic so they chose to go the slow route and reduce the number of possessions per game. Betting on the defense to keep things tight. Fall behind by more than a TD and the game was over. It’s great to be “super efficient”, but if you score once per game in doing so you are doomed to lose.

Dino’s offense is much more dynamic. It can score points at any time from anywhere on the field. Would Dino like to score on all drives? Sure. But even if he doesn’t, if he scores enough then it will force the opponent to take bigger risks which could lead to more turnovers, and better results, by the Tampa-2 defense.

Until Dino has his roster in place there will be some big losses, as we’ve seen. Scott endured plenty himself as well... even though he was allegedly “more efficient”.That GA Tech game was the most painful game I’ve ever witnessed in person. In the meantime, most will be happier watching close up-beat contests instead of boring, defensive struggles.